American women

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

If the mod was paying attention she would have whooped your ass by now. But as it is, she is busy this weekend.

In the meantime this thread has developed from a sexist generalisation into an interesting dicussion. Nothing like a bit of gender role discussion to really show your colours

Lucky Iam past the deep-rooted idea that you've got to please everyone and win their support by always agree with them.

[occidentalis]

not internal beauty, thats defined altogether differently

but its a sad fact that men do seek beauty preferentially over other things

if they didnt then women would be drab and ordinary

like peahens or female bird of paradise

I think the selection mechanisms that encourage that sort of sexual polymorphism in some birds aren't so mch of an issue in mammals.

To discuss beauty and attractiveness - It's a matter of choice. There is a difference between a woman choosing to dress or appear in a particular way for her own enjoyment and her not having the choice because she will not be seen as attractive if she doesn't. I am a fairly superficial person in a lot of ways and I have a strong appreciation for female physical beauty. Perhaps too strong :D. But the women (and men!) I find most attractive are the ones who have really externalised their internal beauty so that their appearance is a true reflection of their soul, regardless of whether or not this fits in with social norms and fashion. Makeup, fashionable clothes, and glitter, although they can be a part of that, are definitely not required.

she has to be educated and a bit revolutionary

she has to be kind and have the patience of a saint (in reference to my faux pas)

she has to be comfortable with sexuality and sensual experience

she has to be a tripper but not an addict

she has to be a good friend and a good mother

Hehe

we have similar taste in women . Although I think i've lucked out on the 'patience of a saint' bit ;).

My partner is a pagan love goddess.

[woof woof woof]

Heh - lets turn this topic around - Ethnobotany dating or something - lol

here you have it > single man (29) with interest in special plants, surf ,& spiritual = looking for smart & sweet woman for dynamic, progressive relationship! PM me > only serious if you are! ;-)

brian

[TIHKAL]

i just dont see how you can make generalizations about people based on their nationality. your only working on some sort of gross stereotype. you can make a thousand generalizations and spend the rest of your life seeing these generalizations shred to peices. i say why bother. every one is so differrant. regardless of where they are from. i have met really nice uastrialian women and really bitchy eastern european women... i just dont see the point in makeing nationalistic generalizations. or creating streotypes.

[Legba]

i just dont see how you can make generalizations about people based on their nationality... i just dont see the point in makeing nationalistic generalizations. or creating streotypes.

it makes it easier for us not to have to think. imagine how easy it would be to see plants in 4 categories: trees, bushes, cactus (the spiky ones), and 'others'. people can arrive at conclusions about eskimo women, without having to met any, just by watching a doco and discussing it with a few stangers on the net. and once that conclusion is reached, no more effort is needed. the conclusion is filed away for future reference.

the up side is that if u believe that all australian women are lesbians or all american men are illiterate then you have such great potential for growth when u come across examples of ones thats are clearly not as you previously thought. hopefully it will help you see a fault in yourself and make you look deeper into yourself to see what else youve been "brainwashed" into accepting as truth.

isnt part of our mutual goal here to "open our minds"?

Edited May 21, 2006 by Bacchant

[wandjina]

Some of the opinions posted above, presented as objective views, are expressions of serious psycho-spititual maladjustment.

What dark and hateful cess-pits of contempt have been revealed here...cavernous pits of repulsion, resentment, hostility and malignant mysogynism.

I am disturbed and saddened in equal measures...it is hard for light to penetrate such depths of fear and hatred....the ugliness and bitterness of such psychic vomitus indicates a staggering degree of immaturity, ignorance and sexual-spiritual-psychological retardation.

It is hard to not be outraged and repulsed by these imbecilic expressions of hatred and blatant bigotry, but more, I feel great pity.

People who feel this way about any group, whether based on gender, sexual prefernce, or cultural heritage, are so angry, so scared, so wounded...in their heart of hearts they feel so ugly, so inadequate, so unloved...but instead of going inside to address this inbalance, they project it onto the world at large.

As it is, healing 'mother issues', especially as manifested as overt mysogyny and chauvinism, is a hard row to hoe.

You do yourself a serious disservice by allowing yourself to perpetuate the perception of women as abject, because by extension, this is the abjection of the feminine, the anima, yin...and the denial and subjurgation of this part of your own being.

The ugliness you see, is but a reflection of your brokenness, and how very broken one must be to feel and think this way about women.

To the other respondants, especially Creach and Bacchant, as a woman, as a human, I thank and I applaud you. Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire...or an effective flame retardant

And, Torsten, I'd like to ask what you would do if a homophobic equivalent of this post was made? What if the generalisations and bigotry were directed at gays?

Personally, I don't think this kind of hateful bullshit should be tolerated here...but sometimes it seems like sexism is condoned, whilst racism and homophobia is more enthusiatically challenged and discouraged. Double standards?

I'm not advocating censorship, I would actually argue against it (but then if someone posted pedophilic material...what would we do? Where do we draw the line?), but I know I'm not the only one who finds the kind of views expressed here antithetical to the principles, ideals, and metaphysics that we, as a community, hold dear and strive for.

I really think hate-filled posts should be discouraged...there are multitude other sites that would gladly accommodate such detritus, and many therapists equipped to deal with same...but, as a member of this community, I ask that the big Kahuna (thats you T)...please make it clear that predjudice and bigotry are not condoned at SAB.

I expect someone will post re the evils of censorship and freedom of speech, or that contentious/vitriolic posts make for good discussion regardless of content (and they often do), or that all standards are relative and where do we draw the line etc etc (indeed, in another thread I posted re what i saw as puritanical reponses from another site to WS lengthy 'quiz'...but, that said, perhaps they are more familiar with him there)...whatever the case, whilst i respect the right to speak freely, I would prefer that posts promoting bigotry and intolerance are strongly discouraged and/or posted elsewhere.

Edited May 22, 2006 by wandjina

[MORG]

I bailed on this thread early but was surprised to not only see it still going today but to also see it being taken seriously.

C'mon, the very idea that half the population can be characterised accurately by one man in a forum post is absurd. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and these opinionated rants are notably scant on the evidence. To actually take these generalisations seriously is akin to reading Cosmo for an education in real life.

I'm constantly trying to distance myself from the generalisation that middle-class Australian males are chauvanistic, know-it-all, full-of-themselves bigots. They're out there, but we're not all like that.

PS. Wandjina: "psychic vomitus", I love it!

Edited May 22, 2006 by MORG

[puffingfish]

there are some women out there who are just an uncut diamonds

excite them, wake them up to new ideas, you know - engage in life

theres a lot of girls with sharp intellect and a warm heart - yeah and super horny when u give them a chance

who have been overlooked in their teens but really grow into themselves in their 20's and 30's, while the early 'pretty' ones fade real fast - LOl case in point britney spears

That's really patronising Rev.

I'm also really over the focus that men have on sex. It get's really tiring.

If everyone just tried relating to eachother on a basic human level with respect and an open mind we would be capable of so much more than mundane and lame discussions like this.

Common people, evolve already.

As for poor Britney - cut the girl some slack. Everyone has bad days. You should know what the media is like.

Personally, if you took photos of me after a night duty and spread them around with a few nasty rumours you might feel the same about me before you actually met me....

[Rev]

That's really patronising Rev.

you think?

whats wrong with sex?

by my reckoning its the reason men and women seek each other out

if it werent for sex then my partner could well be another male

and i know if in my relationships past and present that a relatiojnship without sex is like life without psychedelics

but in defence its the story of my love life to date

i dont go for the 'popular' ones

i do assess women on more than just the visual level

and i find the 'overlooked' types to be far more interesting

those who didnt conform to teenage ideals of beauty

'pretty' can be very plain which is why top models arent 'pretty'

pretty wont sustain interest, you need more character to be beautiful

and becase im not interested in the politics of popularity i was not wanting a 'popular girl', i prefer the girls who spent their teenage years in study and hobies and personal development as they are more satisfying than those who are makeup experts and gossipers.

when you meet somebody you start a relationship, and its to do with growing together and sharing.

both of you inevitably change and both of you explore new territory

Its a fact girls are usually more closeted than guys by their parents and peers as teenagers. many are outright oppressed. A big part of most relationships ive had has been sharing my experience of the bigger world with girlfriends. going out of comfort zones, new places, tastes, experiences. with a boyfriend its far safer for women to explore the world in many circumstances than if alone or with female company, or at least they feel that way.

the same can be said for men no?

many of the guys who were so popular at my high school, nowadays they arent all so flash

whereas those who didnt get noticed have really come into their own, physically and mentally

and with the right girlfriends they learn all about and enjoy the feminine reality they never can with their blokey mates

Its pointless to talk about internal beauty alone because its so independant of the external

and ill not shy away from friendship with a person no matter how they look

and truth be told in the past the same went for one off sex

but in relationship matters chances are youre only looking for 1 person at a time

and probbaly somebody you may want to reproduce with and grow old with - so you are looking for a degree of inherent fitness, a beauty that appeals to you over a long time.

I dont think beauty is necessarily superficial, it is the culmination of so many things

the genetic fitness, the origins, the way you live, the way you see yourself

as for britney

maybe

i just think she'll age badly, and thinking that i never thought she was really hot stuff

and dont find her attractive. prety ones come and pretty ones go...

on the other hand even though shes not young at all i think Nigella lawson is incredibly sexy :D, more so even now than britney ever will be.

almost everybody is young and beautiful but i want to make sure when im old that my partner is still a MILF ;)

So is it really too much to ask for a partner who is by youre perspective beautiful?

And if i meet you after a night shift i prob wont consider one way or another simply because im not looking for another partner

Edited May 22, 2006 by Rev

[Guest Warrioe-Sage]

It doesn't matter If my orginal statement was right or wrong. It was a trick question. If American women are more masculine than European women, so what? A woman is entitle to be what she wants.

What mattered was that in assailing the widely held principle that American females are all femininity personified. Which can treaten and hurt some to even listen to an alternative view as they are stiff inside their resticted attitudes.

you go past the deep-rooted idea that you've got to please everyone and win their support by always agree with them.

Herin lies the problem; as the media and society pummel people's consciousness into a collective norm, the vast free flowing creative expranse of possibilities that lay in one's heart are gradually squached into a calcified mass - like a suger cube.

Anyway,

Do you like hairy gals? Ive heard the Euroean women dont shave much.

"

I think its very sexy.

As long as I find her attractive.

I also like a Girls smells, you know, Pheromones. Chemical body excretions. Body odors.

There has been much talk in recent years of pheromones. In certain insects and animals,

pheromones have proved to be potent stuff indeed. Some bugs just gotta have it when they get an

olfactory jolt. And when a female pig gets a whiff of pheromones emanating from a sweaty male pig,

she spreads her nostrils, turns her rump toward him, and oinks seductively.

In human animals, sweat, foot odor, and vaginal fluids (the odors that Americans gratefully pay

deodorant companies to wipe out) would count as pheromones. Do they work? Do male body

odors have the same effect on human females and vice versa as they have on the opposite sexes in

the animal kingdom?

Certain humans do openly respond to body odors.

Many men like the scent of a woman's

underarms.

Napoleon report-edly sent a letter to his beloved Josephine imploring her, "I will be arriving in Paris tomorrow

evening. Don't wash."

Today, however, the average wife would be more apt to send her pit-sniffing

husband to a sex therapist.

Some researchers still harbor high hopes for human pheromones. Half a dozen

respected scientists think they have discovered a new sense organ in our nasal cavity called the

vomeronasal organ, or VNO. These scientists tell us that anatomists have overlooked this organ for

centuries. No wonder—it is nothing more than a tiny, pale pit near the bottom of the septal wall

dividing the nose. This minuscule dent is reported to detect chemical signals passed unconsciously

between people.

To prove their point, these scientists did what all scientists do. They conducted experiments. But

when their human research subjects lay flat on their backs flaring their nostrils for science, nothing

happened. Women who sniffed armpit pads that men had worn for several days did experience a

slight change in their menstrual cycles, but they certainly reported no feelings of sexual attraction.

However, modern-day scientists and entrepreneurs, ever in search of a headline-grabbing discovery,

continue their research. The hope (and the hype?) is that by bottling a form of human body odors,

humans will be able to generate the same reaction as the female pig when she gets a blast of boar

breath. One clever entrepreneur has already bottled a new form of the old substance, body odor,

and is selling it at seventy dollars for fifty millimeters. Mail-order catalogues have jumped on the BO

bandwagon and are advertising secret ingredients from the human body guaranteed to hypnotize and

attract members of the opposite sex.

I've conducted little firsthand research in this area, but my own unscientific observation is that, if you

dab some pheromones behind each ear, you may indeed find horny female insects flying around your

head. No evidence to date proves to me that pheromones can cause the same reactions in humans.

The sense of smell, however, is a powerful attraction. Who knows? There's a whiff of evidence that

these scientists and entrepreneurs are on to something.

http://www.google.com.au/url?q=http://scho...cholar&ct=title

[Salviador]

I have a feeling WS that the women you are referring to are probably into fashion makeup and big brother. You, WS, without being to presumptuous are prolly not into any of that, and i would guess that is reflected in the way you dress and groom yourself.

These girls are very nice, they are human after all, they have emotions and feelings, just different ways of expressing it. Fortunately for them, the guys who find good looks more important than say you or i would, tend to devote themselves to making money to attract such girls. Unfortunately for you, they see you as a loser, much like you see them as losers. So of course theyre not going to give you the time of day, just like you have judged all the girls in sydney and would treat them according to the perceptions of others who look like it. Additionally you can hardly call them bitchy, because the tone of this thread could be defined by some as bitchy.

Russian women would prolly be very in because you were foreign, comparitively rich, and obviously interested in them. The strongest predictor of what makes people like you and vice versa is how much you like them.

A little more objectively, or evolutionary viewpoint would be that, the rich guys get the good looking women. Like rev was saying, non rich guys go for non materialistic women. I think you would be surprised at how easy it is to become materialistic when you increase your good looks. Just look at "corey" or "queer eye for the straight guy" those suckers look all alternative and cool, until they look mainstream, and admittedly better. Then they choose to stay with it, ratehr than staying loyal to their look.

Each to their own I say.

[puffingfish]

That's all good Rev and I agree with what you have said.

The part I found patronising was the part about women being rough diamonds etc It came across to me that you were saying all women have the potential to be beautiful but just need someone to help them engage in life to become super horny!

That is disrespectful and ignores the fact that many women are happy and at peace with themselves whether or not they even think about how 'beautiful' they are or how much sex they have or even how much they enjoy sex.

We don't need men to teach us how to fulfil ourselves - we are more than capable thank-you.

Anyways, I'm sure you didn't mean it exactly like I have interpreted it and I am probably also projecting to a certain extent. However, my projections are also influenced by previous experiences and I can tell you - the sexual paradigm is a very common and annoying filter to have to work through with men when all you want is a decent conversation and some respect for what you bring to the circle.

Of course this is not a problem unique to men and I don't blame anyone personally. I think it is largely to do with the media and the constant portralay of sex etc and it's eventual integration into the mainstream psyche which makes it often difficult to connect with people on a very basic level.

I guess I was also dissapointed to see this sort of stuff going on in such a progressive forum. I happen to believe that the level of wisdom and knowldege shared by this community at large is only a step away from total liberation from the usual structures that bind us. We just have to agree on a common goal and support each other along the way;)

[Darklight]

Lucky Iam past the deep-rooted idea that you've got to please everyone and win their support by always agree with them.

I dunno, it looks to me like you're not getting laid and are spending an inordinate amount of effort justifying making it look like someone else's fault

[TIHKAL]

Lucky Iam past the deep-rooted idea that you've got to please everyone and win their support by always agree with them.

I dunno, it looks to me like you're not getting laid and are spending an inordinate amount of effort justifying making it look like someone else's fault

wow yeah now that you mention it!! thats exactly what it seems like you can see this exact same logic and sort of conversation everry night from guys when the bar closes...

[SikkimRex]

I dunno, it looks to me like you're not getting laid and are spending an inordinate amount of effort justifying making it look like someone else's fault

 

Spot on Darklight!

And why are we having this conversation again???

If you are a man, women are the other (or at least AN other), and if you are woman, then men are the other. But whats interesting about that? Its inevitable. But its not specific. There are more of these OTHERS out there than you can count. And despite this big, gross difference (man/woman), there is infinite differentiation between individuals. So its more useful to say I like/dislike this particular person (or I have had a specific experience with a specific individual) and why, than it is to make these generalisations.

I used to ask my dad (who was a sailor) "Dad, whats such-and-such a place like?", and he would always say "It depends who you meet there, son". He would never either make generalisations about places or people, or allow me to make them (did'nt stop him being a mysoginist though..). I think its fine to make judgements but make them specifically, its simply bad science to make such big generalisations from such a huge study group. Women get burnt by men and men by women and it hurts whichever way it comes. If not, why are there so many fucking love songs?

I am with Puffingfish and Wandjina here - I would have thought that the people participating in this forum were beyond this type of discussion. I mean the entheo thing is pretty fringe, so we are all outsiders... why make more outsiders of the outsiders?

Edited May 22, 2006 by SikkimRex

[ramon]

- I would have thought that the people participating in this forum were beyond this type of discussion. I mean the entheo thing is pretty fringe, so we are all outsiders... why make more outsiders of the outsiders?

It is only through discussion that you can hope to alter someone's views.

The thing that stands out the most about this forum to me , is the way that contentious issues can be raised and they are discussed largely without it resorting to personal attacks.

As to the issue.

There is no Self, therefore there is nothing that is not Self.

Understanding this would go great lenghts to avoiding some off the lazy thinking that has been expressed.

Also it is my experience, that more often then not the things that really bug us about others is telling us alot about ourselfs.

[wandjina]

It is only through discussion that you can hope to alter someone's views.

The thing that stands out the most about this forum to me , is the way that contentious issues can be raised and they are discussed largely without it resorting to personal attacks.

You are absolutely right...a point worth emphasising.

As annoying and infuriating as I have found some of the views expressed here...and as often as I have either overtly or implicitly attacked someone personally (and the latter is ubiquitous here I'd say) because i have been outraged or offended by their views...I must acknowledge that you are right Ramon.

I don't necessarily want to advocate the expression of hateful rhetoric per se...but, come to think of it, here's a better place than many to air one's 'dirty laundry' and, hopefully, come to the realisation through discussion that no one can, or has the responsibility to, 'cleanse' it but you.

Here I have been able to express an assertive side of my self that rarely comes out in person....some members are surprised when they meet me....because I'm not as scarey/aggressive in 'real-life' as my on-line persona can sometimes be.

Sometimes I feel like I 'dump' here, and then I kinda feel guilty...but then, is it that here I feel i can say what i really think without fear of reprisal/rejection/judgement?...That I can process thoughts and feelings that otherwise would not be so readily digestable, in addition to having them digested by others...so I can better see where i'm coming from by considering anothers' perspective?

I really get alot out of this, out of contributing, and from the responses to my contributions.

Thankyou

Bearing this in mind, it would be hypocritical of me to deny others the right to express the things they perhaps feel they cannot elsewhere, no matter how repugnant I or anyone else finds them....alternatively, if they're in the habit of expressing their views at every given opportunity...here may be the best, or only, place available to have these knots discursively untangled.

By the same token, I can neither censor my own opinion, which may include wanting to say, for example,...'you're a complete and utter imbecile, fuck off'... or words to that effect.

Which kind of negates this entire post

ahh well...its all good

[Torsten]

I guess I was also dissapointed to see this sort of stuff going on in such a progressive forum.

we don't screen members, so really, anyone can join. as such we have a pretty broad sample of society with only one thing in common - we all think about or do stuff with plants. While there are quite a few people here who have really used entheogens for serious selfdeveloment, there are also quite a few who are just looking for the next smoke. Your 'average stoner' isn't any smarter or open minded than your average 'anything else'. Let's not forget that many people consume plants/drugs to NOT have to think too much.

There are only a few things we don't allow here. Sexism is one of them. While some comments come pretty close to the line, sometimes it is better to have them out in the open than to hide them. For example, I doubt that I myself would ever want to associate myself with someone who posts sexist generalisations. having a permanent record here helps us to get to know people for what they are long before we meet them. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of instances where a few months or years of the real world have brought about interesting self improvements - all documented in chronological order on these forums

[Rev]

That's all good Rev and I agree with what you have said.

The part I found patronising was the part about women being rough diamonds etc It came across to me that you were saying all women have the potential to be beautiful but just need someone to help them engage in life to become super horny!

That is disrespectful and ignores the fact that many women are happy and at peace with themselves whether or not they even think about how 'beautiful' they are or how much sex they have or even how much they enjoy sex.

um i apologise for giving that impression

not what i meant at all

all women (nay people) do have potential to be beautiful - to someone

i saw a really cute couple the other day

both were obviously sub-normal

but very much in love

but its not what i was alluding to

what i mean is that when you meet a girl, she may not be sassy, she may not have great hair or dress well, she may be a frump, braces n all.

but if look past that to potential then you may find someone wholl be a better long term partner than the glitter queen, i mean if youve seen the GC with no makeup then u see the differemce aint so great

now im being patronising but think cinderella and pumpkins into carriages shit..through exploration and increasing self esteem and empowerment

if you think a bit harder about what u really want and need in a partner instead of mindless subscription to 'male ideals' (as defined by tabloids and mens magazines). works both ways- dont lie to yourself and overlook quality as you really define it, and yet dont settle for less either

aside from that im saying - all women are horny - just dont assume its for you :D and a healthy person is a sexually satisfied one, whatever it takes. any woman attractive or not has needs and the more the fantasy simmer the more explosive it is when it surfaces

does anyone disagree that the female mind is a very erotic one?

[Salviador]

does anyone disagree that the female mind is a very erotic one?

It depends

When your young, only things that directly stimulate you senses are good. Ie candy, bright colours, new things. As I age, i find myself appreciating more complex things, wines, spicy food, music and drama to name but a few.

I could go two ways with this. That is to say, beauty is a collection of traits hung on a meat suit, and eroticism is something that comes with maturity and practice. To develop fantasies, one must think and have a broad range of experience to compare and fuse and simmer before flourishing into a saucy saucy curry, or well matured wine. Hehe i got a little carried away there, been brewing wine and brooding over women too much lately

[Rev]

lol

hows old age treating ya salviador ;)

Ive always had good and close female friends and most i have never slept with. As a result i get candid inclsuion in just about all conversations

from late primary school through to now the girls have always been erotic and sexually explicit in a way my male friends rarely ever are. All 'Nice' girls too.

I scoff at the notion the kinds of things i heard the girls talking about that would never be brought up in equivalent male company

Desires and experiences, sexual gratification and techniques, Masturbation and intimate aspects of physiology, Homosexual fantasy and feelings.

ie a male friend might mention he fucked a girl, but the girl would tell me everything

have you guys ever read Womens erotic literature? or realised how pervasive it is

That girl with the glasses might look innocent but not all hardcore comes with glossy pictures.

[mr toodly]

Foreigners, especially Australians, are not worth an American fingernail.

[mr toodly]

In poor countries, people don't have as much money and material possessions, so therefore they are not so spoiled and "stuck up" as people in capitalist countries. What they lack in material assets, they make up for in personality and soulfulness.

Have you ever been to Kabul or Mogadishu?

[Darklight]

Foreigners, especially Australians, are not worth an American fingernail.

I love you Mr Jackson, you crack me up

[elzar]

Beauty is a product of social conditioning. Some people used to think that women should have small feet. Personally i feel there needs to be some sort of physical attraction in a relationship but it is far outweighed by character. There is no point looking for somthing emotional (personality etc) when the only reason you are interested is physical beauty.

We can take extreme generalisations and from that point we are kind of right because what are the odds that you will be finding somone with the same set of values that you require, while you have the same values as they hope for? Quite rare IMO.

There are large masses of many countries made 'stupid' by the world of advertising and 'reality TV' (great term that one). Many places you go you will find those more interested in the world of superficiality and money. After time this turns people bitter when trying to find an equal. Odds are that you are looking in the wrong place. As I and many others find ourselves falling into this. It is weither we chose to dwell on this that makes the difference.

Perhaps with divorce being almost socially acceptable these days people find that they can rush into marriage with less care.

I have met the most interesting, physically attractive women on the north shore in sydney and the complete opposite. While locally the same applies. Generalisations should never be taken seriously.

As much as i disagree with some of the points made in this thread it does a great job at getting people to talk and it most definantly got me thinking.