E = poison or panacea?

[wandjina]

I read a story the other day about a person who had some frightening experiences coming down off what she was told was e. Not just your garden variety depression or general wired blergy-ness, but scary weird leave-your-body-and-end-up-some-place-dark kinda experience.

For this reason she didn't take anothe e for over 10 years, and after hearing terrence mckenna say that e was like poison, she thought she'd made the right decision.

But then, after a decade, she had a few over a period of about 12 days, and was surprised to find the experiences very healing...although the comedown still sucked.

A few questions:

*has any one else had some really scary out of body experiences coming down from e?...think dark, spinning, scary place with no discernible end or beginning.

*Is it possible this experience was caused by some other substance sold as e? If so, what may it have been?

*Did Mckenna in fact beleive that e was poison, and if so, why?

*What is the best way to/alleviate minimise unpleasant comedowns?

[Benzito]

Well most tryptamines, IME, work in reverse;

The come-on is the down part. While you are waiting for most tryptamines to peak, you feel slightly odd, ill, or maybe just uncomfortable. But then you peak, it's great, and you slowly slide out. Generally I find I feel some sort of 'afterglow' from tryptamines, but have never visited any 'dark, scary places' whilst coming down. While on them, yes! :D But never when coming down.

That said, I think you would have more experience with tryptamines than I would Wandjina. Because of all your uni study...

Phenethylamines, which I have less experience with, can become 'unpleasant' at any point. So, this is the class I would be looking towards.

I've never used MDMA, so couldn't guess at substances that appear similar in action.

This is all based on my limited experience, using drugs whilst overseas for a short period. I am far from a hard-head.

[narayan]

Well as long as you've got good quality pills then apparnetly there should really be no comedown, or so I was told.

*Did Mckenna in fact beleive that e was poison, and if so, why?

Ok, well this is sort of my personal opinon but for males like myself who's animus (masculine side) is quite predominant then mdma is really such a great tool for opening up your emotional side. But then for people who are allready emotional open then I guess it probalby isn't any use, just my 2c tho

[Cyjack]

I get the feeling that Terence thought of all compounds like this as poisons - of a sort. I mean - they change the natural balance of body chemistry - hence the term poison.. or so I take from it. In enough quantity, salt will kill you - as will sugar.

MDMA has an apparent dark side - the stress on the neurotransmitters is extreme - so much so that some are likely to die in the experience. This might explain the changes in psyche and perspective - because you have been re-wired so to speak, to make up for the missing connections. I have an interesting vid for download here - http://www.cyjack.com/Visualisation/Visualisation.htm - the one about Illegal Drugs - and How they got that way.

The other thing that I have heard Terence mention has to do with Dendrites. He mentions in a lecture that MDMA appears to remove the dendrites somehow, and that science is still to work out just how important this is. Here is an interesting idea from http://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych289/B...dendrites.shtml

Dendrites are generally very thin appendages that get narrower as they extend further away from the soma. Dendritic spines are short outgrowths that further increase the receptive surface area of a neuron. The surface of dendrite branches is covered with junctions that are configured for the reception of incoming information.

The dendritic branching of a neuron is changeable in the mature nervous system, either growing or retracting. This plastic behavior is more common in larger animals. An enriched environment (and perhaps learning) is associated with the growth of dendrites. Alcohol has an adverse effect on dendritic growth, and senility is associated with dendrite shortening and a reduction in the number of branches in the elderly.

I think this is why Terence recommended shrooms and the like - because of the huge generational sample rate gathered throughout history... meaning that most people who used these compounds do not appear to have suffered in the process - a tested and true methodology. Unlike MDMA that has only made an appearance in the last century. I have noticed that some people dont like to hear bad things about MDMA - lest it be true perhaps?

[wandjina]

very interesting, thankyou.

I have noticed that some people dont like to hear bad things about MDMA

yes, I have noticed this too.

My own view is that any substance that guarantees a high no matter where you're at before taking it is potentially dangerous. I am not familiar with recent research into MDMA, especially consequences of long term use...but the effect on dendrites sounds worrying.

I've really only noticed the 'dark side' of E in people who take alot of it, regardless of supposed purity/quality. Can't say i have a great deal of personal experience with the substance, so i can only go with what i see others experiencing/reporting re heavy/long term use.

so is someone gonna get on the defensive or what? Are 'good pills' perfecto and 'side effects' the result of adulteration? or do those that have shitty comedowns have 'issues'? Lastly, who has the good pills, and can i please have some?

[Leo^]

This may be a tad off topic, but was wondering the diff between MDA and MDMA. Tried MDA once and it seemed to do nothing (was verifed as genuine too), would this still happen with MDMA?

[Torsten]

MDMA releases serotonin and dopamine, along with a little adrenaline.

- If your serotonin levels and your dopamine levels are good then you will have an experience that oscillates from eyes rolling back, knees wobbly, and warm fuzzies (high serotonin) to superman energy, sociability, and confidence (dopamine).

- If your serotonin reserves are low then your experience will be mostly hyperactive euphoria (dopamine & a little adrenaline).

- If your dopamine levels are low then you will have a very sedate 'smacky' experience with lots of eyes rolling back and inability to stand up - you might also be more withdrawn and less sociable (serotonin).

- If your dopamine AND serotonin levels are very low then you will get none of the nice dopamine and serotonin effect and your experience will primarily focus on the adrenaline response. In effect you will have a very messy anxiety attack. Although, there are many shades of this and they can range from just being very messy and irritable to being emotionally empty and of low selfesteem, right across to full blown paranoid delusions that can last for days afterwards.

A change in transmitter levels from one week (or month) to the next can be all it takes to provide a totally different experience to exactly the same drug. In most cases the progression is from having enjoyable experiences to suddenly or gradually having yucky experiences, but the reverse also happens (for obvious reasons this is not reported as frequently).

Add to that the confusion over whether the pill was actually MDMA and things become impossible to map.

As for the difference between MDA and MDMA, the former has a slightly higher dopamine response than MDMA, but other than that (and the slightly longer duration) they are pretty much the same. Imagine an 'e' that still lets you have sex (ie really really really makes you want to have sex and actually allows you to perform, not just desire) and you have MDA.

[wandjina]

hmmm, ok. fascinating. thankyou

well, according to the story i read, the girl's original experiences would mostly fall into the last category (only the comedown though) and the more recent into the first.

Still, her companions told her that the pills were pretty ordinary by their standards...after about the fiftieth time she'd said...'wow, this really is wonderful stuff'....

the eye rolling thing only happened on one pill though.

the low dopamine/'smacky' thing is news to me...I always knew there was no heroin in E (some people are like a dog with a bone with that one), but had suspected ketamine/speed mix of some kind.

allrighty then...say one wanted to maximise the chances of a good time, and hence healthy levels of Dop. & 5HT...how could one prepare? What could one avoid?

Would/does a womans menstrual cycle have any bearing here?

Is it true that on good qual pills there is no comedown?

In any case, what could one do to alleviate and post-E blergyness?

cheers

[Torsten]

well, according to the story i read, the girl's original experiences would mostly fall into the last category (only the comedown though) and the more recent into the first.

If only the comedown is afected in that way then this usually means the reserves of the relevant transmitter have run out. In fact, that's what all come downs are. Hence, the use of lower doses and lower frequency can make a big difference for people who have nasty comedowns.

This issue of comedowns was my main research field while taking copious quantities of drugs. I had made it my mission to take any party powder in any quantity and manage the comedown so it would be pleasant. It's possible as long as you don't wear yourself out physically (ie 10 hours of dancing will leave you sore no matter what your neurochemistry does). Our little rave group did not have comedowns for a long time. Funny enough even thoughm most people in our group knew how to prevent them, many chose not to after a while. It was a weird phenomenon, but I think ravers need a come down to validate their experience More on that some other time.

Still, her companions told her that the pills were pretty ordinary by their standards...after about the fiftieth time she'd said...'wow, this really is wonderful stuff'....

the eye rolling thing only happened on one pill though.

"Wonderful" usually equates to euphoria, which is the effect of lots of dopamine. If she had somewhat low serotonin still, but hjad a robust dopamine supply then she would be euphoric, but no wobbly knees and no eyes rolling back.

the low dopamine/'smacky' thing is news to me...I always knew there was no heroin in E (some people are like a dog with a bone with that one), but had suspected ketamine/speed mix of some kind.

Ananlysis results indicate that there is no smack in pills. Anyway, that idea started at a time when smack was $100 a pop, so it was completely ludicrous. I've mentioned this before, but my pet theory on smacky e's is as follows.

In the 80's and most of the 90's MDMA was made by a method (Leuckart reaction with impure N-methylformamide) that would invariably produce a small amount of MDA. MDA has more of a dopamine character and hence would be more uplifting. Pure MDMA however can be very sedating at times to certain individuals. Only very little MDMA was made by methods that were free of MDA. Once most MDMA was made via nitromethane rather than the formamide, the result was a product that did not contain any MDA. Hence smacky e's became a lot less prevalent (ie the ratio between the two shifted and hence the eprception shifted).

Also, most pills these days contain some caffeine. The extra adrenal kick from the caffein is probably also enough to prevent smacky e syndrome ;)

allrighty then...say one wanted to maximise the chances of a good time, and hence healthy levels of Dop. & 5HT...how could one prepare? What could one avoid?

Boosting the dopamine is easy and can be done in as little as 20 mins before it runs out. As a general rule it is a good idea to predose with some tyrosine before taking the pill, and then take more AS SOON AS you start to feel it running out (usually accompanied by sigheing a lot).

Ensuring his serotonin is MUCH more problematic. Absorption takes longer and is not as complete, so predosing with tryptophan and various diet changes are required even days before the pill if possible. Taking some 5HTP or tryptophan during the peak will help too, but it is shortlived.

The biggest problem is that the supplements on empty tummy will cause gas discomfort if taken in excess. Hence predosing the days before is a better option than chowing them down after the pill has kicked in. 1000-1500mg of amino acids should not cause any problems, but more than this will cause bloating.

Would/does a womans menstrual cycle have any bearing here?

Most definitely. Women have very labile serotonin reserves during PMT. This would not be a good time to take a pill.

Is it true that on good qual pills there is no comedown?

No. It is definitely piossible to have a clean pill and not have a comedown, but this is not the norm. There are many contributing factors though. A single pill taken in a relaxed situation (ie not a rave) is more likely to have no detrimental effects. Physical exertion from dancing, crap food and excessive sex can contribute to a comedown.

The comedown is really your body telling you that it has run out of neurotransmitters to shoot into the synapse. There are only three ways to deal with this.

1- add more building blocks and hope they get converted to transmitters

2- go to sleep quickly (ie via benzo)

3- have robust neurotransmitter reserves in the first place

If you are lucky enough to comply with #3 then you are one of the lucky peope who can say a clean pill has no comedown. Most of us don't fit #3 so we need to deal with the other two.

In any case, what could one do to alleviate and post-E blergyness?

The real post e problem is actually not the come down, but the 'wednesday blues'. After a big weekend you usually still have residual effet on mondays, you are tired on tuesdays and on wednesday you become an emotional wreck. If these midweek moodswings apply to you then you have a problem as your reserves are obviously not robust. This can lead to long term problems and should be addressed by supplementation.

[wandjina]

great stuff T, very ineresting...mind if I pick your brain a little more?

in the story the girl said that having a few puffs of yandi when coming down really brought it back on...what's going on here?

and can you please explain the jaw clenching thing, and why exactly one's eyes roll?

[Torsten]

in the story the girl said that having a few puffs of yandi when coming down really brought it back on...what's going on here?

We never truely release all transmitter reserves, however the lower the reserve the harder it is to get it released. By taking more of the drug or by taking another drug we can coax out a little more. Also, there is a synergy effect between serotonin and anandamide receptor effects.

and can you please explain the jaw clenching thing

Adrenaline is responsible for this at all times. There is a theory that extremely high dopamine can do it as well, but I personally believe that this would not be directly from the dopamine, but rather from the adrenaline effect the high dopamine creates.

Jaw clenching is part of the fright or flight response.

and why exactly one's eyes roll?

Ever tried to stay up hours and hours past your bedtime without stimulants? your eye lids gets heavier and heavier and you roll your eyes back to try to keep them open? The heavy eye lids are caused by an increase in tryptamines (serotonin & melatonin). Similar thing happens on MDMA, but it gets a lot more intense due to the sheer amount of serotonin.

If you were to remove the dopamine effect from MDMA you would end up falling asleep within seconds. Your muscles would give way and you would collapse. Your eyes would roll back and stay there. You would not get your eye lids open for the next few hours. You can induce a similar effect by initiating the beginnings of serotonin syndrome, which is basically an overwhelming pure serotonin response.

[Benzito]

the low dopamine/'smacky' thing is news to me...I always knew there was no heroin in E (some people are like a dog with a bone with that one), but had suspected ketamine/speed mix of some kind.

I know for a fact that people do get K pills, but I also think that this is the biggest waste of K ever!

Have a look at this dosage chart from Erowid;

Oral Ketamine Dosages

by body weight approx total

Threshold ---- 40 - 50 mg

Light ---------- 50 - 100 mg

Common ----- 75 - 300 mg

Strong -------- 200 - 450 mg

The K Hole --- 500 + mg

Now, in my experience you would definitely go for the upper end of each dose bracket there. 500mg is not always a 'K hole'! Ketamine, at street prices, can go for as much as $200/gm. So if you get a pill which gives you a terrible Ketamine 'trip', chances are there may be up to half a gram in there? You just got $100 worth of K for $30!

My K fiend buddies used to seek out K pills when actual K was scarce, cause it was a good cheap fix.

Why people put K in pills is beyond me? It must happen when someone has promised a batch to a drug syndicate, but they can't get the proper precursors, or something like that.

[indigo264nm]

Some pills (clean, lovely, cruisy happy biccies) you don't really get the come down and scatteredness the next day, other pills (intense, trippy, hard hitting) you are all over the fuckn shop (literally... bad memories working in a shop ^_^) the next day. This HAS to be because of adulterants IMHO.

My K fiend buddies used to seek out K pills when actual K was scarce, cause it was a good cheap fix.

Bleeeeeeergh terrible things... *shudders*

I've always wondered though how many of the K-bombs are actually DXM. In bad judgement I railed one or two of those things once and I swear it even smelt like benadryl. Even felt different to pure K that I'd tried before, though I'll admit my experience is somewhat limited (and plan to keep it that way *shudders*).

[Torsten]

K is extremely cheap in some countries - cheaper than MDMA. that's where K pills come from.

[muegel]

Boosting the dopamine is easy and can be done in as little as 20 mins before it runs out. As a general rule it is a good idea to predose with some tyrosine before taking the pill, and then take more AS SOON AS you start to feel it running out (usually accompanied by sigheing a lot).

Wouldn't taking more also theoretically mean more dopamine at the serotonin axonal terminals, leading to more free radicals (brain damage) after the MAO-B enzyme have done it's job there?

[Torsten]

Wouldn't taking more also theoretically mean more dopamine at the serotonin axonal terminals, leading to more free radicals (brain damage) after the MAO-B enzyme have done it's job there?

Yes, taking tyrosine will increase the synaptic dopamine levels which will contribute to damaging the terminals. That's the trade off. However, the damage done is always equivalent to the effect experienced, so if for example you have a choice of popping a second pill or taking some tyrosine then the latter will provide almost as much fun (500mg is enough for a second peak) and will remove the comedown at the same time, while the former will cause the same damage and leave you with double the comedown.

These things always need to be viewed in perspective rather than in absolutes. Bottom line is that taking supplements will allow you to reduce your drug intake dramatically, have higher peaks, or have less of a come down.

[mescalito]

Very interesting T, I could never understand how when I moved house once years ago and was exhausted from packing and travelling a 6hr round trip 3 times in 3 days that 2 high purity pills put me to sleep for 16 hrs straight flatout on a concrete floor in the garage.I just couldn't get the last load into the van before nightfall and figured the stimulation would keep me awake long enough to do so before I had a kip.You could say the come-down was pretty ordinary too

Now it makes sense.

[Viking]

very interesting stuff T bout the the dopeamine, serritonin, adreniline, smakiiness etc ..

i know the feeling of a good smakky pill.... its good... i always knew herro wasnt in them .... even tho i have neva done herro id say the smakkyness of a pill is much more lovey-dovey and also very euphoric as u sed ...

thats the kind of pill swim likes :D

but my thoughts were always to do with "everybody reacts differntly to every drug including pills..

ps .. gota love the eye wobble :D

benzito the k-bombs or ketamine pills r very nice depending on the users choice.. i quite like themm....

once my arms started trippinng me out .. very spaced out ... its great in combination with mdma ... imo

xtc is prolly the drug i have the most experience with ... it gos great with a bit of green when comming down..

but no matter what i always comedown .. never crashed ... and always get scattered ..

those of you who've done xtc will know what i mean by scattered...

its wen ur mind isnt totally there .. and by that i mean very spaced out ... sumtimes in some poeple it leads to anger ... its not uncommon ... but sleep fixes it best otherwise it could be around from as little as 2-4 hrs to as much as 2 days (worst case senario for me)

presumabley because of brain replenishing neurotrransmitter supplies... i would think

well thats my 2 cents ..

btw all i have sed .... is swim .. lol

peace

[indigo264nm]

but no matter what i always comedown .. never crashed ... and always get scattered ..

those of you who've done xtc will know what i mean by scattered...

Yeah, I think it's strange that I've never had that real crash effect and always found that the next day (scat day ) was pleasant for me. When I first tried it I found that I felt better coming down than I did on the drug though environment could have indeed played some impact. All in all E has never offered much to me, it's never been my type of thing even though I have had enjoyable experiences. I enjoy it's syngeristic effects more than its solitary effects. I also regard it as probably the most weird and odd chemical I have ever injested.

I've always wanted to know what 'swim' means since the old 'AFOF' or 'my gnome' thing seems to have been scrapped.

[Viking]

swim = someone who isnt me

thus making it a story....;)

and deleting all suspition .. or adding it .. lol

well thats the theory ...

mdma + lsd ... great combo ... says swim ..

the mdma make the lsd trip more happy imo ..

but.... scattered as the next day .. trip scatterd & pill scattered ..... badnessss

[wandjina]

hmm, ok. A few more questions...

I took L-tryptophan in highschool, but now its not available anywhere OTC. The health-shop people told me it was gov. regulation due to side effects, and looked at me as if I was a seedy drug fiend. What happened? (re regulation, not in the health food store)

I'm gonna go for a prescription, does anyone know how much it usually costs? Is there a generic brand? Or would ordering from overseas be cheaper?

Also, what of 5HTP, forgot to look out for it...is this available OTC? Prescription?

Lastly, what would constitute a serotonin boosting diet? Can anyone provide info or a link please? Many thanks

[Torsten]

I took L-tryptophan in highschool, but now its not available anywhere OTC. The health-shop people told me it was gov. regulation due to side effects, and looked at me as if I was a seedy drug fiend. What happened? (re regulation, not in the health food store)

A bad batch of GM tryptophan was put on the market by a japanese company at the time prozac was about to hit the shelves. 20 people died from a type of eosinophilia. all tryptophan was recalled and restricted. Once the cause was pinpointed the governments decided that tryptophan should be restricted. Problem is that no pahrmaceutical company except Bullivants Health foods would stock it. It went from $8 per 60tabs to over $40 for the same packet and only a few chemists knew how to order it.

Bullivants ceased stocking it a few months ago so now there is no australian source. The only way to get it is to get a script and order from OS. Make sure to take a copy of the exact product you want to orde to your GP and get him to fill the script for exactly that dosage and packaging.

eg, a script for 30 tabs of 1000mg will not allow you to import a tub of 60 tabs of 500mg!!!!

Also, what of 5HTP, forgot to look out for it...is this available OTC? Prescription?

It's not available in Oz, but you can import without script.

Many people (possibly the majority) have one problem or another with tryptophan. This ranges from aggression and digestive issues to short term peaks without a sustained effect. Many people experienced with tryptophan do not see 5HTP as a suitable substitute.

Lastly, what would constitute a serotonin boosting diet?

UTSE. Best keyword is probably 'salmon'

[wandjina]

thankyou torsten, i appreciate it :D

I don't know shit about brands...there's too many choices, can you recommend any?

also, can anyone suggest best source for supplements on the net...who is best to deal with/ most reliable etc? any companies to avoid? thankyou.

[Leo^]

Heres 2 I found, many more around tho

http://nootrition.com/osCommerce/catalog/index.php

http://www.biogenesis.co.za/

I was talking to some dude in Uzbekistan and he said when he takes kratom he often gets the jaw clenching, aggression?(not real negative tho) and superman ability listed here, but also social improvment and desire to chat to everyone and be friendly.

And I can empathise with those comedowns described, altho I never do pills, just work lots in a physical job and dont ever get much sleep (severe sleep disorder). Maybe its just a natural feeling that a lot of ppl dont get cause they dont get pushed that far and not an evil drug side-effect?

oh and huge props to the great questions from wandjina and the great answers from T ;)

[macro]

Never been there myself, but in the late 1990's there were a fair few batches of supposed 'K pills' that did horrific things to some friends of mine during the morning come down, who otherwise would have been fine. Never tested, only on hearsay..