They reckon its Co2

[Dolos]

Is there nothing Co2 isn't responsable for I'm someone who has a very strong spiritual belief that we go on so I don't agree with them. I don't think science can yet explain death.... Interesting none the less but I still reckon it's GOD....

Near-Death Experiences Explained?

Near-death experiences are tricks of the mind triggered by an overload of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream, a new study suggests.

Many people who have recovered from life-threatening injuries have said they experienced their lives flashing before their eyes, saw bright lights, left their bodies, or encountered angels or dead loved ones.

In the new study, researchers investigated whether different levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide—the main blood gases—play a role in the mysterious phenomenon.

The team studied 52 heart attack patients who had been admitted to three major hospitals and were eventually resuscitated. Eleven of the patients reported near-death experiences.

During cardiac arrest and resuscitation, blood gases such as CO2 rise or fall because of the lack of circulation and breathing.

"We found that in those patients who experienced the phenomenon, blood carbon-dioxide levels were significantly higher than in those who did not," said team member Zalika Klemenc-Ketis, of the University of Maribor in Slovenia.

CO2 Only Common Factor in Near-Death Experiences

Other factors, such a patient's sex, age, or religious beliefs—or the time it took to revive them—had no bearing on whether the patients reported near-death experiences.

The drugs used during initial treatment—a suggested explanation for near-death experiences after heart attacks—also didn't seem to correlate with the sensations, according to the study authors.

How carbon dioxide might actually interact with the brain to produce near-death sensations was beyond the scope of the study, so for now "the exact pathophysiological mechanism for this is not known," Klemenc-Ketis said.

However, people who have inhaled excess carbon dioxide or have been at high altitudes, which can raise the blood's CO2 concentrations, have been known to have sensations similar to near-death experiences, she said.

A Glimpse of the Afterlife?

The study is among the first to find a direct link between carbon dioxide in the blood and near-death experiences, or NDEs, said Christopher French, a psychologist at the Anomalistic Psychology Research Unit of the University of London, who was not involved in the new research.

The hospital study bolsters previous lab work done in the 1950s that found "the effects of hypercarbia [abnormally high levels of CO2 in the blood] were very similar to what we would now recognise as NDEs," French said in an email.

The research also supports the argument that anything that disinhibits the brain—damages the brain's ability to manage impulses—can produce near-death sensations, he said. Physical brain injury, drugs, and delirium have all been associated with a disinhibited state, and CO2 overload is another potential trigger.

Still, not all scientists are convinced: "The one difficulty in arguing that CO2 is the cause is that in cardiac arrests, everybody has high CO2 but only 10 percent have NDEs," said neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick of the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London.

What's more, in heart attack patients, Fenwick said, "there is no coherent cerebral activity which could support consciousness, let alone an experience with the clarity of an NDE."

The main alternative is that near-death experiences are "evidence of consciousness becoming separated from the physical substrate of the brain, possibly even a glimpse of an afterlife," the University of London's French noted.

But for him, at least, "the latest results argue strongly against such a hypothesis."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

[dollarjuice]

the time it took to revive them

I find it a bit hard to believe this didn't play a part at all?

Logically wouldn't the longer it took to revive them (i.e. the longer they went without breathing) increase CO2 levels even more and increase the chance of the phenomenon?

But apart from that, makes sense to me. I mean after all everything is just chemicals right?

[El Presidente Hillbillios]

I know a few people that have punched a soda bulb instead of a cream one, that weird lung fizzling goes on. But no real near death experience.

[faustus]

this is what my EGA talk was going to be on this year, but i decided to pull out.

my theory is that CO2 levels trigger release of an endogenous NMDA antagonist, possibly kynurenic acid and it's this drug that's responsible for the NDE. the reason for the release of this drug would be to protect the brain from excitotoxicity, which occurs when the brain is hypoxic. because the brain is actually more sensitive to changes in CO2 than it is oxygen, CO2 administration e.g. carbogen would evoke a NDE too.

[qualia]

is there anything GOD isn't responsible for?

[Sir Jeans]

The results of this study should not be sensationalized. I have just read the research report, which you can find here: http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56

It is important to note that the sample size was very small (52 persons), which (as the authors acknowledge), severely limits the study. Even if this were not a problem, it would not be possible to conclude from the results that co2 is the cause of NDEs. I'll explain why. The following line of text is copied from the results section of the report:

"The NDE score was positively correlated with pCO₂ (r = 0.366, P = 0.017) and with the serum level of potassium (r = 0.315, P = 0.026)".

What those numbers mean is that pCO2 and potassium explained 13.4% and 9.9% respectively of the variation in the patients' scores on a questionnaire that measure their NDE experience.*** If you add these two up, then you get 23.3% of explained variance. That means that both co2 and potassium combined accounted for less than a quarter of the NDE phenomenon in this study. Furthermore, these two predictors were almost certainly not independent of each other - co2 and potassium no doubt correlate with each other to some extent, which means that when combined, they almost certainly explain LESS than 23.3% of NDE variance (maybe much less). The authors do not assess this specifically.

Apart from these two predictors of NDEs, there was only one other that was statistically significant - prior NDE experience. This results of this study are very preliminary, and serve only to lead the way for future research. There is still a long way to go before we can say that science has explained NDEs!

*** These percentages are obtained by squaring the correlation coefficient ( r ).

Edited September 24, 2011 by Sir Jeans

[SunChaser]

I don't think science can yet explain death....

 

Actually, death (the end of life) is one of the only things that can be fully explained by science.

Death just doesn't make sense to egotistic individuals who consider there own existence somehow more significant than than the life that surrounds them. 

Peace

[Gunter]

There are some odd elements to some NDE experiences,

Like people recognizing the faces of people who took their legally dead body to the hospital

Or otherwise saw things that they could not have seen with their eyes

Then you have OBE... Wierd stuff.

I want to believe in an afterlife, I doubt one exists, but don't know for sure. but it seems unwise to dismiss it

[faustus]

f you add these two up, then you get 23.3% of explained variance. That means that both co2 and potassium combined accounted for less than a quarter of the NDE phenomenon in this study

yes, but for two basic physiological markers to account for 20%+ of variance of a complex psychological phenomenon is actually extremely impressive.

re: the role of CO2 in NDEs, i recommend the book "carbon dioxide therapy" by meduna. outof print, but a fantastic read, and one which offers very compelling evidence that CO2 may be involved in NDEs.

[Dolos]

Actually, death (the end of life) is one of the only things that can be fully explained by science.

Death just doesn't make sense to egotistic individuals who consider there own existence somehow more significant than than the life that surrounds them. 

Peace

 

But what if physical death is NOT the end of life, or as spock said "life as we know it"? There has been a lot of notable NDE's that defy scientific explanation, many that are verifiable. There are a few good ones here http://near-death.com/ There are descriptions of events taking place that a dead person should not know about that were later verified by the living. What if Co2 is just another way of inducing or replicating the experience of the soul? Like ketamine, Salvia and DMT. I believe it so but until I die I guess all I've got is faith.

[Dolos]

is there anything GOD isn't responsible for?

 

I beleive not....he's the man

[SunChaser]

There are some odd elements to some NDE experiences,

Like people recognizing the faces of people who took their legally dead body to the hospital

Or otherwise saw things that they could not have seen with their eyes

Then you have OBE... Wierd stuff.

I want to believe in an afterlife, I doubt one exists, but don't know for sure. but it seems unwise to dismiss it

 

I'm open to anything that can be verified by the scientific method. But I really don't think personal experience really has much credibility, I mean when I stay up for over 48 hours in a row weird shit starts happening to my mind. So I honestly can't see why an experience someone has when there body is systematically shutting down should be seen as significant to a logical understanding of reality.

After hundreds of thousands of years of us humans dedicating large amounts of our energy and time into the so called 'spirit world', there's still not one religion, belief, or way of life in existence that can demonstrate any kind of supernatural powers or an ability to communicate with a non human entity which can be verified in anyway. So I just don't understand why we continue to contribute so much time and effort to something which has no clear purpose?

The law of evolution dictates that life which dedicates there energy and time to useless tasks must become extinct, we've gotten away with it this long simply because we have the ability to control fire. How long can that little ace last for though?

Personally I'm dedicating all my 'desire for something more' to the idea that life is abundant in the universe and that entities of some kind have probably been visiting the earth for many years and are probably even responsible for our higher intelligence and the creation of civilization. It would answer the question of how religious beliefs came to be in the first place, entities appearing from the sky with the ability to manipulate our animals, plants and even our environment to our own advantage and then giving us the knowledge of how to live effectively (civilization).

At least that theory has evidence to support it, with all the UFOs that started popping up around the time we started exploding nuclear weapons, and all the rest of it.

Anyway, didn't mean to go off topic about what causes a NDE, just making my point for why I doubt there all that significant to anything.

Peace

[faustus]

every time i hear that the NDE is "proof" that life exists after death it makes me wanna poke someone in the eye. the most important thing to appreciate is:

1. NDEs aren't the same as dying.

2. NDEs can occur in people who are nowhere near to close to dying.

it seems reasonable that any explanation of the NDE needs to take into account #2, and i see so few people actually doing that.

There are some odd elements to some NDE experiences,

Like people recognizing the faces of people who took their legally dead body to the hospital

Or otherwise saw things that they could not have seen with their eyes

this is known as autoscopy, and several interesting studies have been able to evoke this. i'm too amotivational to find you the journal articles, but they;d probably also be mentioned in new scientist etc.

several years ago i designed a very simple experimental paragidm that could be used to investigate the ability of someone having an OBE to obtain information that they would otherwise be unable to obtain, and when i have time i intend to start approaching people who are experts at inducing OBEs in order to investigate it. i don't think i'll find anyone who impresses me, but deep down i still HOPE that they do, as i've always had an interest in paranormal shiz.

[qualia]

your whole post makes me think of fermi's paradox. why then, if life is so abundant, do we not know about it? (ufo conspiracies will not be accepted).

also i got a small chortle from this:

(extraterrestrial life is) probably even responsible for our higher intelligence and the creation of civilisation.

on the one hand you promote the scientific method and scoff a that which can't be proved by it, and then promote an idea which really can't be proved at all by science.*

*please don't take this too personally, just an observation, not an attack.

[SunChaser]

on the one hand you promote the scientific method and scoff a that which can't be proved by it, and then promote an idea which really can't be proved at all by science.*

*please don't take this too personally, just an observation, not an attack.

 

lol, it's all theory at the end of the day and theory is only a useful tool when allowed to be scrutinized, so no I don't take it personally.

Although, I do disagree with your observation. Firstly just because the mainstream uses the psychologically powerful term "conspiracy theory" when referring to UFOs, that on it's own doesn't make it untrue. There's endless accounts of thousands of people seeing them at the same time, jet fighters been ordered to shoot them down and even endless video footage of them. UFO sightings on there own are obviously very weak evidence of intelligent life not originating on earth (although it's much stronger evidence than personal experience, which can't be experienced by more than one person), but there is more than enough evidence to suggest that they occur and it does fit in with the theory of intelligent life existing outside earth.

Also in the last decade we've discovered hundreds of planetary systems belonging to other stars, which tells us that most stars probably have a planetary system associated with it. Now considering we know for a fact there is undoubtably a chance of life evolving (since we have evolved) and that there are more galaxies out there than can be counted all containing hundreds of billions of stars, most of which probably have a planetary system associated with it. Mathematically life has to have evolved billions of times over in other parts of the universe.

To the people who say it's not possible, since they'd all be down here drinking coffee with us and shit, teaching us the secrets of enlightenment, I'd just refer them to that egotistic frame of mind most us humans seem to posses, which I was referring to in one of my earlier posts.

I just cant understand why the human mind usually has such a hard time excepting the idea of aliens, when the theory can be backed up with mathematics. But yet, just blindly follow the idea of the supernatural even though we still have know mathematically or scientifically sound way to back it up.

Peace       

[ThunderIdeal]

i reckon science, and spirituality, these two incompatible approaches to reality, won't come together in the sense of moulding into one. they are incompatible approaches. they will just wake up one day and realise they are deep in each others territory.

i like the idea of your OBE test faustus, i'm sure cunts have done it before though, even in the movie 'men who stare at goats'. i reckon unless you get a positive result it doesn't prove much. one doesn't leave the body without leaving this dimension, i think there are spiritual dimensions that have a similar landscape to here, and information from here might be gleaned, but it is a different space. as usual it's nearly impossible to debunk ideas of this nature.

I find it a bit hard to believe this didn't play a part at all?

Logically wouldn't the longer it took to revive them (i.e. the longer they went without breathing) increase CO2 levels even more and increase the chance of the phenomenon?

 

well, i guess it's a bit complex. if you were dead for a long time before being revived, your breathing was probably done by a machine, whereas if first aiders revived you then there may have been very little assistance to your breath.

[Sir Jeans]

That's the problem with this sort of thing. Sure they found a correlation, and a fairly impressive one at that. But as my statistics lecturers never cease to remind us, correlation does not imply causation.

[Dolos]

That's the problem with this sort of thing. Sure they found a correlation, and a fairly impressive one at that. But as my statistics lecturers never cease to remind us, correlation does not imply causation.

 

So so true.

[Zen Peddler]

A friend is doing a research paper on a condition where the body has low carbon dioxide and cerebral hypocapnia. So would these not get to go to heaven too?

Honestly, the brain is just far to complex for a whole experience to be explained by fluctuations in one natural chemical. The brain works more on cascades and interrelated receptor and feedback loop activities.

LSD is a fine example of this - its a serotonin receptor agonist - but that doesnt explain the trip or why it conveniently lasts for 8 hours (LSD doesnt take 8 hours to metabolise)

Similar in Schizophrenia there is paradoxical low and high dopamine activity in different locations.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Zen Peddler BlueGreenie