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sobriquet

Leonotis leonurus; important parts.

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Hi all,

I've planted ten or so Leonotis leonurus, Lion's ears, wild dagga and about 6 of them came up in a pot. I put a humidity dome over two of the central ones and they are at least twice as big as the surrounding plants.

I've read quite a bit on this plant and the use of it in an ethnobotanical sense. It seems to be true that the flowers are more potent than the foliage in terms of effect where people get the effect.

What I have intuited and suggest is that it is the BRACTS of the flowers that have the most concentration of the active compounds.

The bracts are the green parts at the base of the flower that contain the orange petals. People familiar with cannabis will know that it is the flower bracts which have the most amount of active compound.

I propose that the same is true of this plant. I think that if one has this plant and wants to test the theory, then they might collect the flower heads when they are mature enough but just before they've opened or if they have opened then discard the orange petals and retain the bract at the base to dry and prepare as smoking material.

It would be good to get reports about this. As we know from other plants like Papaver sp. the active components while they can be found spread throughout the plant are concentrated in particular parts and at particular times (pods after 10-14 days following petal drop typically in this case). So I believe that the bracts are where the action is in Leonotis leonurus.

Peace.

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traditionally it is the resin scraped off the leaves that is used. This only accumulates in long hot dry spells. It seem reasonable to assume that the resin is produced in external glands just like cannabis. As to the location of these glands I am not sure. Petals themselves are highly active, so I don't think it is just on the calyx.

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traditionally it is the resin scraped off the leaves that is used. This only accumulates in long hot dry spells. It seem reasonable to assume that the resin is produced in external glands just like cannabis. As to the location of these glands I am not sure. Petals themselves are highly active, so I don't think it is just on the calyx.

Thanks for that info Torsten. I know of the resin being collected so assumed that the plant has external glands as you've detailed.

I'm wondering with the statement of the petals being highly active - are the preparations with the petals typically produced with or without the bracts?

I guess the nomenclature I'm using of bracts is somewhat different to the calyx. I haven't seen an actual Leonotis flower but if you look at the following picture...

478.jpg

leoocymifoliaflower2.jpg

and consider the definitions...

Bract: A modified leaf that encases and then subtends the flower after the flower opens. All of the bracts that subtend a flower are together called the "involucre". (In the Asteraceae family, the bracts are called "phyllaries".)

Calyx: The outer segment of a flower that encases and then surrounds the petals. The individual parts of the calyx are called sepals.

So the calyx would be those stellate (star shaped) outer small triangles of plant tissue - each of those being the sepals.

The larger part behind that encases the flower and subtends it after the flower opens as you can see in the pictures and the definition would be the bracts.

So in the picture below the flower group at the top has yet to open and appears to have a very trichome rich appearance. It's at that stage which I intuit that it may be most active. I'm wondering if the flowers would be active with petals alone minus any bract material or whether positive results from flower 'petals' might be due to the bracts being present in the assayed material.

leoleonorusflowerstem1.jpg

Anyhow just some hypotheses, and intuition worth investigating a bit further imo.

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virtually all of what you call the bract is actually the calyx. The seeds are located right at the bottom of the bract and as a young flower this is the place of the ovary. It would be no larger than 2 or 3 mm, while the calyx would be about 10mm or more. I think you would have a very difficult time separating non-calyx parts from the rest of the bract and you would only get a fractions of the total weight - if any.

The petal extract we sell is made from 100% petals. no calyx. no bract.

I used to make my own extracts from leaves years ago and they could be quite potent even without any flowers on the plant.

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virtually all of what you call the bract is actually the calyx. The seeds are located right at the bottom of the bract and as a young flower this is the place of the ovary. It would be no larger than 2 or 3 mm, while the calyx would be about 10mm or more. I think you would have a very difficult time separating non-calyx parts from the rest of the bract and you would only get a fractions of the total weight - if any.

The petal extract we sell is made from 100% petals. no calyx. no bract.

I used to make my own extracts from leaves years ago and they could be quite potent even without any flowers on the plant.

Excellent. Thanks for sharing this wealth of information.

I found this also which is interesting...

http://www.plantzafrica.com/medmonographs/leonotleon.pdf

Edit: I might as well add the info on Sceletium tortuosum that again has some interesting information.

http://www.plantzafrica.com/medmonographs/scelettort.pdf

Edited by sobriquet

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Just to reserrect an old thread. That resin is formed due to arid conditions yes? So say one wanted to stimulate the conditions would one have to use lights in our climate? I'm in sydney so at the moment its probably too cold for anything to happen on its own but would a fortnight under a hps watered maybe once be likely to cause the resin to accumulate? Or would keeping the soil dry be adequate stimulation on its own? Anyone have much experience, also, is it worth trying to get the resin or just using the normal parts of the plant? And Torsten, while there is another thread around, I think by Spacemonk, which discusses the best method for extraction, what might you recommend? Or anyone else for that matter.

Peace,

Mind

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I considered hardware store metho to probably not be a bad solvent for this given the semi-polar nature of the main active. Comments on this? Peace

Edited by MindExpansion

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i think to grow this plant under lights to stimulate resin production is an overkill, this plant grows very well without much care and readely selfpropagates. to increase it's potency slightly doesn't make sence to me, considering that, "twice as much" is better than "maybe a bit stronger"!! just grow more of them and than experiment with the material.

refluxing with alcohol is the prefered methode, bottle shop alcohol might not be the best because it's expensive and got only 30% alcohol or so. sometimes herbalists sell the proper alcohol they use for there tinctures.

some leonorus compounds i discovered are hygroscopic, meaning even after stilling the alcohol off the alcohol will display a nice green color.

i just had an idea, an other methode you could try is to copy the water (ice) extrction methode used for making water hash from cannabis. after all this methode collects the resin quite well, and you want to achive the same with leonorus.

this material just ask's to be experimented with, as very often it is in oversupply, but falls mostly under expectation levels.

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i've often wanted to try to grow this under lights - even if for just a few weeks. Around here it rains too often during summer for any resin to build up. In the drier parts of NSW & Vic it is not hot enough for the build up to happen.

70% metho is preferred.

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Hmmm, well around flower time I might try and put one under the HPS for a week or two, see if it gets any resin, and also see if it is worth it at all, planthelper you may make a valid point in that its not worth it when you could easily just grow more, but if I stick 6 or so under a light for two weeks or so, it might just work out to be worth it, probably worth a shot anyway :)

Thanks guys, Peace,

Mind

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you can't use hardware metho, the deturrant will spoil your labour.

i have observed this plant in many different climat zones (including cold europe), and this view of how this dry hot climat is necessary is vastly overstated. the uppermost factor is a that the plant is happy with it's growing conditions and well nourished.

if your plant is not well cared for and you put it under lights, "zilch" will happen.

the plants grown in my home town in oz which endure extreem heat and drought for extended periodes don't get lot's of resin because of constant harsh conditions.

so by all means try the lamps if you got money to waste, but first pamper the plant a lot.

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you can't use hardware metho, the deturrant will spoil your labour.

Depends on brand. The diggers brand will leave a nasty bitter flavour on anything the stuff touches. However, the recochem brand will evap quite clean.

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Cheers planthelper, I will try that approach first, at current the one I have growing just started to lose leaves, not sure why, I've read that they are annuals but I've also read perennials. Thought that it mighta been a result of overuse of naturasoap for the spider mites that were on there, either that or frost although I'd had it inside and only left it out for like, 3 nights, but I brought it back in and did a little trimming or some dying leaves. They really do self propagate though, a few weeks ago it put another main stem up from the ground, when it already has two main stems, coming out of the ground separately.

Peace,

Mind

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is methanol better than ISO, Eth, or acetone?

anyone got a pic of this resin build up? i have never seen it on my plants. its real wet here not but in the winter it is bode dry (drought) every year for a long time. the temps are usually in the 20-30 range if thats hot enough....maybe hotter in direct sun? what exactly am i looking for when i look for dagga resin? i am very interested in trying this cause i still can't get the stuff to work, no matter how much extract/raw plant i smoke...

also, would humidity prevent this? its raining here but its fricken hot still, always above 30. so if i sheltered it from the rain but it still got lots of light (just not direct water contact), would that do the trick? or does humidity play a role as well?

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It is amazing how varied the reports on this stuff are, for example you say, along with many others, that you've never had effects. Where as there are also many reports of it working. What I'm confused about as well is that people say they have made teas, but from the looks of the active molecule, water would probably not extract a great deal of the goodies. Methanol vs ethanol, I only have a basic knowledge of chem, but since that majority of the molecule is non polar, I'd think that ethanol is the better option given its larger non-polar area compared to methanol. Then one might imagine iso, then acetone, then methanol. But this is nothing for sure I'm just basing those thoughts on my limited chem knowledge. I'm sure someone could correct me.

From what planthelper said it seems like taking good care of them is what will make them a bit stronger, if I do ever try and put one under light I'll post it.

Peace,

Mind

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ya its pretty varied. i have grown teh plants here in taiwan and in canada and both places gave me nothing. i have done all my extracts with 95% ethanol or acteone...but if torsten mentions methanol, i tend to think it must have some advantage....??? he seems pretty smart with this sort of thing, and I know just about nothing about extracting/chemistry.

i have started doing some extracts of various parts of klip dagga to see whats up, but i have very limited wild dagga to play with. but both species have given me nothing.

i have seen on other forums that a tollerence needs to be broken (i dont know the name of this thing). they say smoking some for a week will help because at first your body is resistant to this plant....i have no idea how valid these thigns are, but it has been mentioned a fair bit. the thing is, i am VERY sensitive to most plants. everything i have tried from dmt to cacti to weed i need like half the "recomended" dose, yet daggas i smoke a LOT at a time and get nothing....once i had a "puffy head" (god damnit i forget the word for this, no more beer). i am starting to think this may be a cultivation error...mine get lots of water.

i am curious if its like pot. water is ok for the roots but dont let it get pounded by rain and give it super heavy overdone sunburn to the max lighting.

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Woops just re-read that Torsten said methanol, no more beer for me either lol.

I think his word is far more reliable than mine on this lol so everyone ignore me, sorry Torsten.

Tolerance needs to be broken? Again not something I'm an expert but that just doesn't sound right

Regardless of what receptors leo acts on, one would think that the greatest effect will come when the most are bound by the ligand, and this is typically when a substance is first being used, because as you use it more the receptors are scaled down to prevent so much activity and thus you become less sensitive. That is my understanding of it anyway, and from my understanding this occurs with most receptor ligand interactions.

Again correct me if im wrong, this is a fairly new area for me but I need to get a good understanding and there is no better way than to be corrected.

Peace,

Mind

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It is amazing how varied the reports on this stuff are
I've often wondered how much of the variation is the result of inadvertent contamination with other drugs. This plant is widely regarded as a good admixture plant that synergises others. Also, people often smoke it as a marijuana substitute. Now, if a dude that hasnt had any marijuana for a week smokes dagga out of his well used marijuana pipe he will also be ingesting a small amount of residual marijuana along with dagga which is known to synergize a great many things including marijuana.

Something like that.

The situation can become quite complex when a dude uses a pipe that he smokes marijuana, S. divinorum, Heimia spp., lilly petals, Calea, nips of Datura, Sceletium, and the kitchen sink out of :wink:

Not to mention whatever drug traces and active drug metabolites might be in the blood.

Edited by Auxin

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for what its worth i haven't had pot in 2 years and my pipe has only been used with dagga.....i do not, however, like that fact lol.

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i just did some reading at a forum devoted just to leonotis and they say excactly the same things.

1, reverse tolerance seems to be a valid factor.

2, many people report repeatedly zero effects.

3, some people recommanded (same methode as with cannabis) butan extractions and mechanical extraction of the leonorus hash via screen (or womans stocking).

4, many people report good effects if mixed with other plants.

if tort recommands 70% metho, it's likely because this ratio will pull the more water soluble actives aswell, a sort of to kill two birds with one stone approach. in other words a higher alc % will not produce a better product, on the contrary...

when i still used to smoke, this plant was my favorite, as it's a very nice and aromatic smoke, and used to rise quite some eyebrows when smoked in puplic., lol.

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So far the best reports were with 70:30 etoh:water ratio. 95% might be a bit too high kakakuda.

I wonder why this hasn't been posted before:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...3ba0cef29a38180

Anticonvulsant activity of aqueous extract of Leonotis leonurus

E. Bienvenua, G.J. Amabeokua, P.K. Eaglesb, G. Scottc and E.P. Springfieldc

Department of Pharmacology, School of Pharmacy, University of the Western Cape, Bellville, South Africa

Department of Pharmaceutical Chemistry, School of Pharmacy, University of the Western Cape, Bellville, South Africa

South African Traditional Medicines Research Group; School of Pharmacy, University of the Western Cape, Bellville, South Africa

Water extract of Leonotis leonurus was tested for anticonvulsant activity against seizures produced in mice by pentylenetetrazole, picrotoxin, bicuculline and N-methyl-DL-aspartic acid (intraperitoneal injections). L. leonurus extract in the doses of 200 and 400 mg/kg respectively protected 37.5% and 50% of animals used and significantly (p < 0.05; Student's t-test) delayed pentylenetetrazole (90 mg/kg)-induced tonic seizures. Similarly, the same doses of L. leonurusextract significantly (p < 0.05; Student's t-test) delayed the onset of tonic seizures produced by picrotoxin (8 mg/kg) and N-methyl-DL-aspartic acid (400 mg/kg). However, all the doses of aqueous extract of L leonurus used did not alter the seizures induced by bicuculline (20 mg/kg) to any significant extent. The data suggest that the extract of L. leonurus has anticonvulsant activity and may probably be acting through non-specific mechanisms, since it affects both gabaergic and glutaminergic systems. High performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) and phytochemical tests carried out respectively show a spectrum profile, characteristic of L. leonurus and the presence of alkaloids, saponins and tannins in the extract.

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400 mg/Kg of extract is massive. Thatd be 23 grams for me and I'm a skinny fuck :P

But I suppose smaller doses would be effective when not dealing with something so extreme as the convulsants used.

Do you figure it might be applicable to use against asthmatic bronchial spasms or to relax spasming back/neck muscles?

Edited by Auxin

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Not sure if those spasms would be caused by the same actions as the convulsants used in that experiment. And I'd imagine smoking it to probably irritate your asthma so I can't see that being a useful application, perhaps mixing some extract in a tea, perhaps with some other bits and pieces, would help you.

I have read reports on erowid of people trying this on its own, making a tea (So no contaminants were likely present), and I think they said they hadn't used anything else in a while because they were on parole.) and reported a nice relaxing activity as the general report is. From the sounds of it though this is probably best put with other mild relaxants to make a nice smoking mix, or a nice tea. Perhaps to smoke it one would make an extract using the 70/30, evap off most of the solvent then put some leaves in the rest of the solvent and evap it off to leave the extract on the leaves?

Peace,

Mind

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hi yall,

i've done some experimenting recently with leonotis but pretty much stopped all of it.it's been a few months now at least.

i stopped for a few reasons, i believed i was possibly developing a total tolerance to it or to describe it another way my brain had maybe completely compensated for/ adjusted to /normalized the leonotis effects.. downregulated receptors?

so to test my theory i've been waiting and waiting and waiting hoping i'd resensitize.

i haven't just been doing nothing, in fact, i've been raiding my local nurseries for any plants on the "active salvia" thread and the salvias are far more interesting/promising than the leonotis in filling that leonotis neiche IMHO but thats for a different thread!

i guess now i'm at a stage where the leonotis should be completely cleared out of my system/resensitized. but my daily entheogenic stack is such that i'm afraid any bioassays would be way too tainted to be a true objective meaningful result.

extracting leonotis with shellite makes it about ten times easier to smoke. seems to just about turn it into talcum powder. but i have no idea currently whether shellite extract or any of my extracts are active. so i mix the shellite extract with 70;30 etoh/water extract or an acetone extract to make something pleasantly(IMHO again)smokable but supposedly x times stronger than straight foliage/flowers.

i've got a few variations sitting on the shelf here

Edited by Airbender

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Ahhh Airbender, I apologise, I said I attributed your thread of Leo extract research to Spacemonk so I will rectify that here :)

I might have to start looking at some of the Salvia's.

Peace,

Mind

Edited by MindExpansion

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could contact with metal (stainless steel razor blades) render an active substance INactive? if it was for example suspended in a mostly evaporated 70/30 alc./water ext. fluid?

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