White lotus alkaloids ? (for lotuswhine)

[amanito]

Hello,

My supplier was out of blue lotus and sent me white lotus instead. He said to have fully analysed the material and said that it has the right alkaloids, the same as in blue lotus. He is a very respected vendor and researcher who would never lie. Although I can't find proof in my books or the net .. .

I'm gonna make lotuswhine .. with white lotus. Will this work? How many gr would be required for one litre?

Thanks in advance.

[XipeTotec]

Hello,

My supplier was out of blue lotus and sent me white lotus instead. He said to have fully analysed the material and said that it has the right alkaloids, the same as in blue lotus. He is a very respected vendor and researcher who would never lie. Although I can't find proof in my books or the net .. .

I'm gonna make lotuswhine .. with white lotus. Will this work? How many gr would be required for one litre?

Thanks in advance.

as the actual active alkaloid in blue lotus is not known.. how would he know? maybe he is a scientist... is he?

[amanito]

He is a well-known scientist

[XipeTotec]

He is a well-known scientist

is he batman?

[teonanacatl]

the alkaloids in blue lotus aka blue lilly are known, ive posted a thread about them with dozens of references, named nymphaea chemistry i think. It would seem the white and blue had simillar chemistry. As to whether he analysed it i doubt it, most people think they contain aporphinic alkaloids.

actually does white lotus mean white lilly eg Nymphaea sp or a white lotus eg Nelumbo sp

Edited March 6, 2007 by teonanacatl

[amanito]

Nymphaea sp

Does anyone has recomondations for an amount in the lotus whine?

[XipeTotec]

the alkaloids in blue lotus aka blue lilly are known, ive posted a thread about them with dozens of references, named nymphaea chemistry i think. It would seem the white and blue had simillar chemistry. As to whether he analysed it i doubt it, most people think they contain aporphinic alkaloids.

actually does white lotus mean white lilly eg Nymphaea sp or a white lotus eg Nelumbo sp

could it be said that it is yet to be confirmed with analysis? bioassay and chemical analysis are very different in results.

[amanito]

There have been done isolates, hpcl and the whole shizzlemynizzlestuff normally.

[teonanacatl]

could it be said that it is yet to be confirmed with analysis? bioassay and chemical analysis are very different in results.

The thread contains chemical analysis references. Im not sure the extracts that were sold as blue lilly were from blue lilly (some alcoholic ones sure but oils and such im not convinced of). Practically every site that sells it says (or said) contains apomorphine, aporphine etc, all aporphinic alkaloids. Ive yet to find any published material that mentions finding aporphine alkaloids in nymphaea or nymphaceae, except for one by diaz and fuck knows where to get that one. Really ashame that people continue to spread the bullshit when the alkaloids in nymphaea could proove very interesting in concentration.

[Torsten]

If I am guessing right then amanito got the lily from the vendor who is also on the cutting edge of Nymphaea research and analysis, in which case the results are quite trustworthy. The presence of aporphines in several other Nymphaea species was also confirmed [or possibly performed before the vendor above did it], but is being suppressed for legal reasons.

[amanito]

Yeah, this vendor is a friend of yours

[teonanacatl]

Is this the same vendor who did that TLC last time? Because he still hadnt changed the results of the TLC stating he found apomorphine when I hit him up about it (even though he said he would), well since last time I checked. Besides TLC is colorimetric and unreliable, he didnt run cospots. I got the page he referenced to but it doesnt help interms of Rf's of those compounds or colours infact it was just about TLC if I remember.

I just did a quick literature search and still no aporphine alkaloids in the lit from nymphaceae except from nelumbo, which is now in nelumbonaceae anyway. Chemical compounds are generally well spread across a family, no nymphaceae seem to have aporphines but rather utilise other alkaloids.

Torsten you keep saying these guys have prooved it but show no serious evidence. Likewise i guess I havent done it to show otherwise but the lit sticks up for what I am saying. There have been dozens of studies done on nymphaea, not one reported aporphines. What use is research if people cant access it?

Is it such a big deal that there actually be aporphines in nymphaea? I mean there are these other alkaloids which havent really been looked at. I dont mind if there is I just want to see some proof!!! Otherwise its just rumors. Besides, a point I brought up last time was the literature shows nothing of aporphines nor of anything that is an analouge of anything illegal, thus the material is legal.

Edited March 8, 2007 by teonanacatl

[Torsten]

Is this the same vendor who did that TLC last time?

he has done more work on it, but to be honest I have not kept up to date.

I just did a quick literature search and still no aporphine alkaloids in the lit from nymphaceae

so, what about Nymphaea ampla? That's the one that was establsihed and where all this speculation started [including the mis citations re other species].

Torsten you keep saying these guys have prooved it but show no serious evidence.

It was done by HPLC vs reference standards in a country where the results would mean the person who commissioned the work would no longer be able to import and sell it. Hence he has no interest in publishing it - yet. Doesn't mean the results don't exist. At the very least they support the other, less reliable findings.

There have been dozens of studies done on nymphaea, not one reported aporphines. What use is research if people cant access it?

What about the research done on N.ampla? Are you forgetting that or am I getting my wires crossed [had a migraine this morning, so not thinking quite straight and having temp memory problems].

Is it such a big deal that there actually be aporphines in nymphaea?

Their absence would not be a big deal, but their presence is a big deal for those countries where the analogs or therapeutics laws encroach on the current freedom.

[AndyAmine.]

Also a big deal for opiate addicts wanting to use aporphines (apomorphine) for detox/withdrawl... ;)

[teonanacatl]

so, what about Nymphaea ampla? That's the one that was establsihed and where all this speculation started [including the mis citations re other species].

Well a search of aporphine in nymphaceae is much greater term then Nymphaea ampla, but I will search for straigh nymphaea ampla later when i can access scifinder.

It was done by HPLC vs reference standards in a country where the results would mean the person who commissioned the work would no longer be able to import and sell it. Hence he has no interest in publishing it - yet. Doesn't mean the results don't exist. At the very least they support the other, less reliable findings.

That sounds better then TLC, what was it he found apomorphine or aporphine or a derivative?

What about the research done on N.ampla? Are you forgetting that or am I getting my wires crossed [had a migraine this morning, so not thinking quite straight and having temp memory problems].

Again nymphaea is a broader term then Nymphaea alba but i will search it later.

Their absence would not be a big deal, but their presence is a big deal for those countries where the analogs or therapeutics laws encroach on the current freedom.

Then why are these guys trying to proove it? Plus almost every page that sells it states it contains aporphine alkaloids thus wouldnt they be kicking them selves in the arse?

Also a big deal for opiate addicts wanting to use aporphines (apomorphine) for detox/withdrawl... ;)

If i remember correctly apomorphine specifically has not been found in a plant but is rather an artifact of isolation of morphine. There is already a great source of aporphine alkaloids and that is nelumbo sp. Infact I would say the white sap of nelumbo is an emulsion of aporphine alkaloids in water, this follows across papaver aswell, and it is not present in nymphaea. Therfore any present are present in low concentration or are more hydrophillic then the other aporphines.

[teonanacatl]

Ok Nymphaea ampla returned 5 results, one on flavanoids, 2 by emboden and 2 unrelated.

Only the emboden ones mention aporphine, and specifically aporphine although he mentions aporphine like compounds in his later article referencing to the same Diaz article.

this one

Diaz, J. L., Ninfaceas: Una lilia acuatica alucinogena entre 10s Mayas? In J. L. Diaz (ed.),

 

 

Ethnofarmacologia de Plantas Alucinogenas Latinoamericanas, Mex. Estud Farmacodependencia,

 

 

 

1975, pp. 174 - 181.

 

 

and another one which i was able to get

Diaz, J. L., Ethnopharmacology of sacred psychoactive plants used by the Indians of

 

 

 

Mexico. Annual Review of Pharmacology and Toxicology, (1977) 647 - 675.

 

 

 

In which he references to himself for the aporphine work.

 

 

 

If anyone can get the Diaz (1975) article please do because this seems to be the only evidence supporting aporphines in nymphaea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now there is one other issue which I hope you are not forgetting about which I detailed in the other thread and that is that aporphine isnt made in any plants, it cannot be due to the requirements of the biosynthetic pathway, my natural products lecturer agrees with me.

 

 

[apothecary]

Diaz J.L. 1975. Ethnofamacología de plantas alucinógenas Latinoamericanas (Curanderos Científicos CEMEF 4), Centro de Estudios en Farmodependencia, Mexico D.f., pp 176–178.

[amanito]

This guy made an isolate, but I forgot the name, it's the same in both white and blue lotus. I'll give him an e-mail to ask the isolates he has uptil now.

grtz

[Torsten]

That sounds better then TLC, what was it he found apomorphine or aporphine or a derivative?

Lost touch, but I believe it was apomorphine as this is what started me looking at getting this made custom synth.

Then why are these guys trying to proove it? Plus almost every page that sells it states it contains aporphine alkaloids thus wouldnt they be kicking them selves in the arse?

He is a curious fellow. Also, he likes to know where he stands with the law. eg, you don't want to go ordering a container load full of a herb if there is a chance it could be confiscated on the basis of drug laws. Smaller shipments would be smarter. He also likes to play around with potentiation and extraction, so knwoing what the target is helps. I would have thought these are rather obvious reasons.

As for it being listed everywhere, these are ALL references going back to emboden misquoting diaz [or even himself - can't remember]. Quite a few were copied from my original Nymphaea page

[Green Osiris]

As a slight aside, but perhaps contributing to the subject nonetheless:

Myself and a good friend smoked a few pipes of Nymph. rubra extract (mounted on stamens of same) last night, with no other intoxicants apart from perhaps 2 glasses of wine each, and the effects were clearly distinguishable as a short-lived 'pot' type buzz. Greater intake next time may prove to be an interesting experience.

I *think* the N. rubra might be a pink flowered beastie. Hard to tell from a sticky extract

[teonanacatl]

Lost touch, but I believe it was apomorphine as this is what started me looking at getting this made custom synth.

Post above delt with apomorphine being synthesised in plants.

What I am curious to know is how he came to be using apomorphine as a standard, one doesnt just look at the HPLC trace and go well that looks like apomorphine. If one suspected aporphines then they could get some aporphines to use as standards but that would be assuming that they were aporphines and not somthing with same rt. If we want a standard we verify what it is we want one of my NMR then prep HPLC it or buy it or somthing like that.

[Torsten]

not sure if I understand what you are getting at with your last post, but apomorphine is readily available as standard or otherwise.

[teonanacatl]

Ok ill try and rephrase what I mean.

I will give an example:

I go and collect some plant material and extract it then run a colum chromatography and im left with a residue which may or may not be pure, so I separate via HPLC and get some pure compounds. The way we tell what the compounds are is by NMR, somthing which the guys dont have access to (im guessing). NMR tells you the structure of the compound. So how do these guys know the compound they are looking at is aporphine without running an NMR, they dont. Then if I wanted to do quantitative analysis of how much of this compound was present I would buy a standard (or make/isolate one) knowing from the NMR what standard I needed. How did they know they needed a aporphine standard? Just because they ran an aporphine standard and got the same rt doesnt mean the compound is aporphine, though the type of detector might help with identification ie absorption characteristics.

[Torsten]

OK, i get it. but I don't have an answer.

hang on. things are identified all the time without using NMR. Are you saying that all that forensic testing that just uses GC/MS and HPLC is all useless?

[teonanacatl]

hang on. things are identified all the time without using NMR. Are you saying that all that forensic testing that just uses GC/MS and HPLC is all useless?

Nope. They know what they are dealing with to an extent and so have standards to fit that, they also need a certian number of points of id, so rt, ms, plus somthing else. It would be rare for more the one compound to have same ms and same fragmentation pattern. If they did however come across somthing not in their library they may be able to determine it from the ms fragmentation but if not they would need to send a sample for NMR analysis. You could ID stuff from HPLC similarly by rt and UV max but would need somthing else. I wouldnt be convinced if I only had a rt match and similar UV absorption.