More anticholinergic questions

[apothecary]

Tropanes such as atropine and scopolamine block acetylcholine receptors, which are a major part of the "memory" system of the brain from my understanding.

This is why these chemicals were often used to drug victims before kidnapping or similar, so they would have no idea how they ended up where they were.

The thing about most tropane trips you read about is that they are all very similar. Symptoms and hallucinations can be found across the board without a lot of variation.

One especially common hallucination is seeing people you have not seen for many years, people that go way back into your memory.

Does the blocking of acetylcholine by these tropanes somehow free up some other memory system that is not as frequently used? How does a chemical that specifically blocks such a memory receptor show the person taking them all these things buried deep in their mind?

Also, from my understanding there are two anticholinergic subsystems, antimuscarinic receptors (muscarinic acetylcholine receptors) and antinicotinic receptors (nicotinic acetylcholine receptors).

The chemical vertine (or cryogenine) that is supposedly the active constituent in Heimia salicifolia displays anticholinergic properties (along with other properties of course).

Does anyone know if vertine affects antinicotinic or antimuscarinic receptors?

Could the difference between the effects obtained from Heimia and say, Datura, be attributed to a difference in receptor targeting?

Has anyone tried mixing the two?

[Auxin]

Interesting question...

Sources say that muscarinic anticholinergic drugs have the effect of blocking memory aquisition and requested recall of memories but do not block memory retreival or object recognition. So presumably by blocking learning and possibly a significant portion of short term memory the brain has to focus more on long term memory if it wants to utilize memory, and its faced with lots of neurotransmitters that are just sitting there not being able to do their job in learning- lol. I'm not sure yet of the role in memory the nicotinic acetylcholine path takes... interesting enough that I might learn a bit more tho

Google can reveal lots of memory research

I havent a clue if the biphenylisoquinolizidine lactones of Heimia are muscarinic or nicotinic... just at glancing at some structures if I had to Guess I'd say nicotinic, dont quote me there

[MotherShabubu]

Also, from my understanding there are two anticholinergic subsystems, antimuscarinic receptors (muscarinic acetylcholine receptors) and antinicotinic receptors (nicotinic acetylcholine receptors).

The chemical vertine (or cryogenine) that is supposedly the active constituent in Heimia salicifolia displays anticholinergic properties (along with other properties of course).

Does anyone know if vertine affects antinicotinic or antimuscarinic receptors?

Could the difference between the effects obtained from Heimia and say, Datura, be attributed to a difference in receptor targeting?

Has anyone tried mixing the two?

According to Heimia salicifolia: a phytochemical and phytopharmacologic review (PDF link):

The above studies indicate that vertine and nesodine have very little specific affinity for adrenergic

and muscarinic/cholinergic receptors and that the potentially useful antispasmodic activity

of these compounds must be classified as musculotropic with an as yet undefined mechanism

of action.

However, the studies referred to are all PNS, so maybe the action is specific to the subtypes of muscarinic receptor found in the CNS (though I'm not sure if the different subtypes differ in binding or just distribution).

They also state that after administering vertine:

There were also reductions in the acetylcholine and histamine challenges, but these changes seemed to be secondary to the fall in resting blood pressure rather than to actual blockage of acetylcholine and histamine receptors.

Which, if I'm reading it right is suggesting that rather than acting directly on the anticholinergic system it is having another effect that leads to an anticholinergic effect.

Does anyone know what the distribution of nicotinic receptors is? Wikipedia has some OK info on the distribution of the subtypes of muscarinic type receptor but none on nicotinic type, there isn't even any information on nicotinic receptor subtypes. Do nicotinic type receptors occur in the CNS?

Also, that paper challenges generally the idea the H. Salicifolia is hallucinogenic and in particular that verdine is the active (they suggest reported effects may be due to the alcoholic preparations used in combination with its sedative effects). One of the authors took 310mg of vertine (equivalent to 36-156 g of dry aerial parts of H. salicifolia), and also lythrine, and reports no activity, apart from cardiovascular changes and a reduction in dental pain.

[mescalito]

I have noticed how Xanax has a weird effect where what you learn ON the drug isn't revealed until you take it again.Other members have reported the same thing too.

Strange how benzo's are used for anticholinergic poisoning though??