naja naja Posted July 29, 2005 G'day all There is no real answer to this , but if anyones got any theories I'd love to hear them. Over east the distribution of the sub seems to be quite extensive, from suburbia to the bush and even one find just into the border of QLD. They do not appear to be as fussy as I once thought. Now I live 86km as the crow flies from bailingup.And can with alot of certainty say they don't grow around here!!!!!! I've heard of them as far as 40km away, but thats not very much at all compared to the distribution range over east. I was of the belief that they would grow here just don't for lack of introduction. We have some old pines and heaps of bush! It's generally quite wet and on average only 2-3 deg warmer than bridgetown. So maybe it's not wetor cold enough here, but why then does it enjoy such a large distribution over east. I will try to introduce it here anyways, but would love to hear whear else in W.A. conditions might be suitable for subs!(ludlow/tuart pines), or even further south? If they would grow in these other places , but don't at the moment purely through lack of spores, then I think this would suggest introduction into W.A. originally in the bailingup area. I know they have spread, but not far and not quickly. Any thoughts on why ppl? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted July 29, 2005 I had a play while at Uni with the Wa varietals In comparison to the East coast varieties/species they are a lot less ammenable to culture they appear different on Agar slower growing than SE qld/NSW, SA (kersbrook), or melbourne subs The mycelium is more linear and zonate being most like the SE qld isolates and least like the melbourne type on artificial substartes like grain or enriched sawdust or paper they were anaemic in comparison to the other isolates I dont think this represents an inferiority in any way but rather a degree of evolved specificity perhaps to certain substrates and environmental cues maybe WA's hot summers, or poor soils. i have no idea In contrast melbournes islates seeme dthe most willing to eat anything at all sorry i cant supply yupou with any of these as they died long ago but im sure itd be easy enough to find a sporeprint somewhere for study I think Walpole,Margaret river, Pemberton and Denmark are all very suitable habitats for eastern types. people have taken them there already. the zone would not be in the bush but rather in the towns themselves in public gardens and private gardens in wood mulch Ive seen the habitat the Wa types live in and its truly wild. Out in the riparian zone on buried woody debris and in amongst long grass and bracken, even straight off huge logs I think the blackwood river is special in its forms and meanders that make it so suitable for subs. Other rivers in WA arent as sub friendly - salty inland and etuarine near the coast pay attention to the blackwoods form if you are looking for other potential sites also when you drive east of perth and you go up through the hills you see naturalised cyathea cooperii tree ferns and deciduous trees along the road. To me these indicate suitable habitat r habitat with potential [ 29. July 2005, 09:59: Message edited by: Rev ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyAmine. Posted July 29, 2005 Maybe try sneaking into some big landscaping supply places, dig right into the woodchip piles burry some spawn in there.. The the spawn will spread through the piles and get transported all over your area... he, he, he.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted July 30, 2005 I like your way of thinking andy. Maybe when I have more(any) experience in culuring techniques, then I will have to ask sumone too supply me with a suitable spore print/s from various places to help me possibly establish a more vigorous form of sub. One That will grow in a much wider range of habitats. I have only found relatively small subs over here in W.A. 2-3shrooms per gram fresh! But check out these pics from the shroomery from sum other w.a. hunter.maybe a genetic line like this may be more suitable than my patches genetics? Maybe not! Anyway, would one agree with me that certain sub varieties should possibly grow and fruit successfully even around Perth?? I'm possitive they should do it here,down south! I've intoduced an infected pine cone and billions of spores to a 2Msq area of eucalypt bush on my own property.I'll let yous know if anything works. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...//fpart/34/vc/1 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...//fpart/31/vc/1 Me likesalot/ jealous much! And yeah i see what you mean by suburban shrooms. Pics from melbourne show them everywhere!!!!! pics at the shroomery! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted July 30, 2005 well, well, well!!!! I'm stoked! I just checked on that pinecone I meantioned in my previous post, and it's going off!!(no fruit) but the mycelium growth is booming! Without disturbing it, I looked down the side to where the cone is touching the ground (soil,leaflitter,bark)And I could see masses of rootlike mycelium growing out of the pine cone and into the surrounding ground. It probably won't get cold enough here again to induce fruiting, but should enjoy at least another month to establish itself for next year. This is where i need advice. What should I do to try and help it through the summer till next winter? Pile a bag of wood chips on it for mulch,water retention and substrate, then water regularly through-out the summer to keep mycelium alive and as healthy as possible? This is what i'm currently thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiders Posted July 30, 2005 Interesting post and topic. Ive often wondered about that myself. One theory ive pondered was that perhaps the WA variety - which most people agree probably arrived there from South east australia - are all decended from a fairly limited genetic source and as a consequence its genetic makeup or diversity - the vigourousness of its phenotypes has been stunted. It could also be as Rev says, just an adaption that seems more suitable to the variability of the WA landscape. Ive also noticed that in general the WA variety doesnt seem to perform well in vitro or on agar and ive heard many times that the potency of WA fruits seems to be consistently reported as much lower than the eastern varieties. I know that the classic yellow-capped sub species promonent in SA and NSW which does tend to have slight microscopic differences to the hardcore Victorian sub - has a potency that is fairly similar to the victorian variety. But to put it in context ill tell you about the friend of mine in the Uk who is trying to study the entire Cyanescens arm of the Psilocybe species - which includes Ps.cyanescens, Ps.azurescens, Ps.subaeruginosa and others. To his surprise it appears that some how the north american variety of cyanescens has arrived in the UK and is spread rapidly - the famous Kew Gardens cyan patch has now been over run with the US cyanescens species. The european cyanescens that has microscopic characteristics very different to its US cousin is disappearing. But the point of this story is that this person believes that the Victorian subaeruginosa is even hardier and more agressive - more agressive than both azurescens and the spreading Us cyanescens variant. So imagine the vic sub got loose in the Kew Gardens! The victorian sub species is also SUPER potent! My advice would be source some of the Melbourne variety and try and introduce that - since we are looking at the same species you will basically just be reingivorating that current population in the region. [ 30. July 2005, 10:46: Message edited by: bluemeanie ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted July 30, 2005 Thanks for the info BM. I thought this to be the case with the limited genotype, therefore limited phenotype. I will endevour in the future to reinvigorate this species here in W.A. so it can prosper like it wants to.I imagine that the genotype would be really restricted if the myth is true that it was deliberately introduced. Maybe from just a few prints, as for the potency, I would have to disagree(not that I've tried any others)but just a 7 gram fresh dose causes good effects for 3-4 hours.I would say that about a 30-40 gram dose would be maximum for our variety. And that would be super strength.only difference is that 30-40 grams is about 50 shrooms, which sounds like alot, but not if you consider the size differences. 1gram shrooms here 10gramers over their. 50 shrooms would be like 500 grams for you guys. Although as ottos pics on the shroomery show. The W.A.s can get big too. I havn't tried these for potency but will report when and if I do! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted July 30, 2005 I wish we had P mairei apparently it grows in Pinus pinaster which to all my knowledge subs dont Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naja naja Posted July 30, 2005 So could someone tell what I can do to help the mycelium survive over the summer? Winter has been really dry here lately too, so I was thinking of putting a few litres in a watering can over the pine cone tomorrow. Would this help, or is it not nessisary? I'm pretty sure the rain is even more of a trigger now the temps are low. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
botanika Posted July 31, 2005 i would personally leave it over the summer. The mycellium has to look after itself naturally sooner or later but a little water now while its spreading wont hurt. Maybe u could water half the patch and monitor the results Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiders Posted August 1, 2005 Yeah Rev, but before i came up your way i would have said the same about Coil pines and subs... I try to cover newly established areas of over summer to keep them moist. It helps. Just a plank of wood is good. or maybe just light watering... The first subs of the season in melbourne - ive gone to ego destroying level 5 on 7-10 fruit bodies. You can trip hard on as few as 4 - ive seen an experienced campaigner have a mental break down on a tram after injesting just one large fresh specimen! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nut Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) i will add more but have 16 years studyin the blackwood valley in particular and have seen patch sizes get smaller and ares that had good nos are now just devoid of life,shit everywhere,empty rd bull cans,old bongs,logs just kiked to bits ,not lifted and replaced,the pressure fmo idiot pickers is having a massive impact but if you know where to look you will still find them.but its getin REAL hard to find em and they are in amazingly specific areas but 500 m away no matter where you look theres none,lack of rain in the last few years has been terrible and i saw the effect of that in a 2 year period in the blue mountains,my grandfather told me ,he had a farm backin onto the b.wood valley,he was sure they where there in the 1950s so id love to know when they were "put" there,i have seen somone try and grow an outdoor patch 200 m from swamp land but close to the coast,fog etc and down to 1-0c in winter and sure mycil are rampant(this was in southern suburban Perth) but no fruit ever appear.30-40grms wet sound like a very high amount to me.theres just so much we have yet to learn about them its strange the oldest patch i know still producing seems to have drifted wset by about 50m and the old area devoid of specimens,soon i shall make a photographic ands spore record of all mush in that 16 year old area,just need more damn rain,i will say ive found them in areas as far as 60+km from bally Edited May 16, 2011 by nut 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
botanicalSEEKER Posted May 16, 2011 In an effort to increase the distribution of subs in SW some people have been working with outdoor cultivation and spreading spawn in various places. Spawn should be applied to areas that maintain moisture and have partial shade. Some wood chip beds (only certain types.) maintained by councils are watered with sprinkler systems intermittently, places such as these could support mycelial growth, council workers will even apply new mulch from time to time!. What is a little surprising is in certain dabblings with outdoor cube cult, well it certainly wasn't planned but three flushes later and positive bioassay, they don't mind Perth. Albiet the fruits are a little smaller but rather dense. Lets all get involved and spread the spores, it will take time to establish good spots, but there no better time than the present to start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foo Posted May 16, 2011 myco terrorism, count me in Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nut Posted May 16, 2011 amazing,anything ive heard of cubes outdoors in perth has bin stopped by our 40deC east wind periods,other than that it appears they could do ok in perth,save for our ultra hot,ultra dry periods.as far as inducing sub ptatches down soutrh it seems very hit and miss and a study on areas that have a close to b.wood river valley conditions seems the way to go Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted May 16, 2011 i'd be very interested to see how naja naja's attempt is going 6 yrs on from when it began i can confirm that there has been success in outdoor cultivation much further south than bailingup im not going to give out any locations (sorry guys) but yes they will grow spawn was taken from the b-town and relocated to another area further south a small amount of stem buts and a very small amount of wood debri covered in mycelium was used stem butts were placed in some containers with some woodchips and sawdust (never heard of the cardboard technique at this point) the small amount of myc covered wood was placed outside with some more woodchips over time the mycelium spread from the stem butts to the wood chips and sawdust some small pine logs had some holes drilled in them and some of the myc covered woodchips were placed in the holes holes were then plugged with cardboard and log placed half buried into outdoor woodchips (the log now gets moved around constantly within 1 -2 months the woodchips under the log become a mass of extremely rhizomorphic mycelium) i will post some pics of this sometime i had some but computer fucked up an i lost all my pics and the log shouldnt be moved again this close to the season anyway there is now masses of extremely aggressive and extremely rhizomorphic mycelium all over everything everywhere since i stepped it up in the last year after it fruited last season so basically this all started in 2007 or possibly 2008 hahha im not sure the process began after picking one season there was then 1 or 2 seasons with no sign of fruits (they may have been there but werent noticed) and last season it finally happened patience is key but i can confirm for you all that they seem to love the conditions and popped up in many more places than expected and this is MUCH further south than the B-town so goodluck all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted May 16, 2011 id also like to note that on the distribution side of things i think they were obviously introduced to w.a. and with b-town being one of the main oldest places for plantion tree farming its no wonder that that would be the place they would show up most predominately and if you take note of the geography and lack of plantations further south its no wonder they havent spread far ever wonder why even in the b-town they are still scarce you dont just walk into any forrest in the area and find them they've clearly come with the trees the recent amnita muscaria find in manjimup just shows you how the mycelium travels with not only the soil but the roots of the trees themselves this tree was also said to be bought from the b-town wich i have seen someone i think on here mention something about amnita muscaria being introduced to the b-town dont know if that has anything to do with it anyhow in my opinion the subs came with the forrestry industry and thats my rant hahahha thankyou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) haha i'll definately get some pics of that log the log basically didnt come from the b-town came from another random pine forest no where near the b-town the mycelium from the log is simply from drilling holes in it and adding the myc covered woodchips and half burying it in a woodchip bed wich had more spawn put into it earlier the result was the mycelium in the chips underneath and the holes in log went nuts the entire bottom of the log has mass rhizo myc coming off it everywhere so where ever it gets layed down it spreads from the log to the chips underneath insanely fast as it always stays nice and moist underneath the log and as for the change in location well having shrooms close to home is always good and being able to pick and not worry about the fun police well thats a plus i had no real doubts about the habitat its perfect possibly even better than the b-town b-town is just to much for me these days call me paranoid but yeh hahha i dont like to risk it aswell as its a bit of a drive up there Edited May 16, 2011 by myco Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hyphal Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) They do fruit ok in Perth - http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18086&hl=%20subs%20%20and%20%20the%20%20city&st=0 Also the Darling scarp should be fine for fruitings, Harvey would be great (years ago I heard rumours they grow there) and especially higher up - places like Dwellingup (also heard rumours that they have been found there as well, however I don't believe rumours without the proof). Edit: Kings park has some heavenly shaded and woodchipped spots and would almost certainly support subs also. Edited May 17, 2011 by Hyphal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted May 17, 2011 wow glad to hear you got em to fruit in perth i really didnt think the conditions would be good enough thats very interesting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bush Turkey Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) nevermind Edited July 18, 2011 by Bush Turkey Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
botanicalSEEKER Posted May 17, 2011 Patches need sufficient water either from rainfall or irrigation / rainfall . I believe if any project to increase subs distribution is to succeed multiple sources of spores are needed, not just from wa subs. Increasing diversity within populations will increase its potential to not only survive but increase its distribution through biotic and abiotic means. (without our helping hands). @nut, think autum & spring , work your schedule around that. Found that coco coir substrate left to consolidate for a couple of weeks topped with hay works best. After initial flushes rake the mycelial bed top with more hay and layer of manure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Idiot Posted May 17, 2011 I've been trying to spread the local G.Purpuratus cause I thought they are local and they can survive in this environment better than other mushrooms but because of the extremely dry year that we had I think I've achieved nothing. I'll try again this winter. If you have any success stories please share the photos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
myco Posted May 18, 2011 i agree we all definately need to get hold of some of the eastern states variants to let loose over here its great to hear some success stories from some w.a. crew now everyone just needs to step it up a bit and in time they'll be everywhere Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nut Posted May 18, 2011 it sure would be fun but my 16 year patch stays a mystery,there just too damn rare to see in wild Share this post Link to post Share on other sites