liquid wolf Posted January 7, 2004 Hey everyone I'm just new to sab, I got a question about mushrooms grown with peroxide. The peroxide is used to kill the bacteria that can mess up a batch. Has anyone heard of this process? This place www.mycomasters.com sells books on the process they use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mesq Posted January 8, 2004 Ok. Welcome to mushroom cultivation. I have used peroxide in agar culture and liquid mycelium. It is useful because mold spores cannot germinate on peroxidated media however established mycelium can create enzymes to digest the peroxide... Peroxidated media will not prevent bacterial blooms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liquid wolf Posted January 8, 2004 What amount of the should be used in each stage? i've also heard that if you sprinkle a spore print in your garden you can get great results without having to worry about bacteria and the rest. Would this work? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted January 8, 2004 Originally posted by liquid wolf:--> [QB] What amount of the should be used in each stage? it varies depending on who you talk to peroxide is good, but it is NO substitute for pressure cooking ... It will kill SOME maybe MOST competng moulds But NOT all. It will not help bacterial infections much though ..... there are some disasterous experiments carried out by ther gnome down the road (who used the nick electro to post results) who had terrible trouble with bacteria using wbs (very prone to infection) and NO pressure cooker or heat of any kind. BUY A PRESSURE COOKER $60 from the markets vurses hundreds of dollars and much time failing. ---> i've also heard that if you sprinkle a spore print in your garden you can get great results without having to worry about bacteria and the rest. Would this work? probably not ONLY WHERE LEGAL ... hit www.shroomery.org and hunt for outdoor dung patch teks (buy some straw and cow manuer and all is good) ... you do have to create spawn for this though ... For spawn or indoor cultivation search for PF TEK or similar or WBS (wild bird seed) TEK 's also for indoor cultivation look into Liquid mycellium medium - dextrose wbs - spawn / substrate Straw & dung = bulk / semi bulk substrate and pf tek if you must ------------------------------------------------ The gnome down the yellow brick road says that he would: pay no attention to electros bad spelling Get a spore print or better a mycellium syringe grow some mycellium in dextrose water (easy to keep sterile, and makes a great backup to make more syringes from), leave to grow then make syringes from it ... put them in the fridge. (if using mycellium syringe you can add 1-3 ml peroxide to this dextrose water to help stop infection) Soak some WBS for 4 hrs in water and peroxide (as much as you want - it will "burn off" in pressure cooking but will kill some spores before you cook it - this is overkill ... but if you really want to add peroxide, do so as it MAY cut pressure cooking time ) Strain the wbs until it drips no more, load in to jars (big is good ... 1.25 l glass jars are good) and pressure cook for 20-30 mins (people say 1hr, but 20 mins after pressurising seems to work at 80 kpa or 12.6 psi). when the wbs jars are cool inject with dextrose mycellium (sucked up from the spice jar you prepared earlier with a sterile syringe). wait til they colonise fully. Pasturise some straw and dung (by soaking in hot 70 c water for an hour then draining til it drips no more. Break up the colonised wbs and innoculate the now moist (not wet) cool dung straw mix ... leave to colonise then fruit in a grow chamber or dump in the garden and let nature fruit it for you this may look like alot, but really is quite easy. Every step gets easier as you progress though the growth cycle. Look up all terms used here (probably spelled wrong hehehe) at the shroomery ... hunt through the teks and be familiar with the growth cycle and what the shroom wants and needs ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liquid wolf Posted January 9, 2004 Thanks guys, i've had heaps of trouble with mould even following the tek's and i do have a pressure cooker at hand to mess around with. The green mould seems to win out every time!!!!! So the way i see it peroxide is the only way that you can grow shrooms as a novice without heaps of trial and error to deal with! (big time costly) I would'nt want to eat somthing that has been grown in a chemical that can turn my beautiful brown hair blonde, No matter what the science says about how safe it might be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smogs Posted January 9, 2004 if your using a presure cooker make sure your doing it more than 20mins (not too long tho) but also more importantly make sure the method u use to get the spores (or mycelium syringe) into the container are CLEAN! dress up like michael jackson.. wear gloves and a mask and use metho on your gloves before you touch anything. also make sure syringe needle is sterile before you innoculate etc www.shroomery.org has some very good and detailed proceedures oh and peroxide is 100% safe its H2O2 and over time (especially with heat) turns into water and oxygen. both good [ 08. January 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: smogs ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted January 9, 2004 15 to 20 mins for liquids 1 hour for grain, cakes etc as jars upto 500ml increase the time for increasing sizes up to 2 hours at 15psi for a large grain bag or jar weighing more than 1.5 kilo But in th end some bastard things just never seem to get sterilised!!! Presoak o/night and rinse your WBS. In addition adding a capful of household bleach can help but if the grain keep on contaimnating give it to the birds and get a new batch - trust me some batches are Shite and will never give good results no matter how hard you try Best grains ive worked with for cleanliness are Ryegrass seed,Brown Rice, Milo sorghum and French Millet (or a combo of the above) Maize is fine but its better when you lime-soak and precook it Worst are Wheat and Rye - i wouldnt dream of ever using these damn things again. They work very well IF you get a good batch , which is the tease because some batches are excellent, while many more test your tolerance. They seteriise and appear clean then sponatneosuly contaminate a week later with either blue mold or this unknown white spotty mould i can seem to kill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted January 9, 2004 LW, the gnome down the road spent a year battling with blue-green mould .. everything contamd ... he spent, well - too much the peroxide experiments were good (grain soaked in water with an entire bottle of peroxide), they stopped green mould, but bacteria won anyway, even when the experiment was repeated with 3 day rotating 40, 50, 60 min boils on the stove inbetween nightly incubation. the thing that saved the gnome down the road was 1, his pc and 2 liquid culture to start it all off ... spore scrapings with innoculation loops just didnt work, trying to make CLEAN liquid spore syringes was impossible without gloveboxes. Now jars are made up, pc'd The spore saddy is injected with water (without removing the syringe the liquid is sucked in and out 3-5 times to stir up all the spores then sucked in. This is a huge waste of spores (as they could make lots of syringes BUT saves contams and the liquid medium makes up for it. Inject as many dextrose jars as you have with 1ml each of spore solution. COVER EVERYTHING with metho .. burn the needle to glowing red inbetween EVERY injection (even before and after sucking the spores up) .. use gloves .. 90 cents for 50 pair from coles if you look hard. Cover the injection holes with more alfoil (make new lid that sits ontop of the old one).. make sure it is also covered in metho. There is NO airflow here .. it will die soon but not before it grows enough to make a whole bunch of mycellium syringes first. Peroxide in this water helps reduce contams, but using syringes the gnome down the road has never had a prob .. tissue culture on the other hand he hasnt got right. use these syringes to innoculate pf or wbs jars .. you can now waste asmuch as you want (one $6 bag of wbs does 10 1.5 kg jars) ... alot of chances to mess up the sterilising of the substrate... For a test pressure cook your substrate and just leave it in a warm place for a week ... see if it contams... leave it for 2 weeks .. see if it contams If it does you havent prepared it right - dont throw it out thhough, pc it again - fractional pc ing the gnome down the road wonders if his fractional pc'ing of his wbs jars is what enables his reduced cooking times ... the 4 hr water soak and the drip the dry is normal, but once wbs is loaded into jars they are left between overnight and 3 days before pressure cooking for 20 mins... then left overnight and hit again for 5 mins and innoculated 5 hrs later when cool. He cooks 1.5 kg of grain at a time ... 1 jar at a time... ends up with 3 * 1.5 kg jars to fruit from or innoculate dung. (coles has nice big square jars with metal lids that you can attach washers nuts bolts and a bit of rag to to make a decent air filter (just keep the filter [shirt or coffee filter] material clean .. bleach it occasionally.) check all stages of growth and eliminate your contams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rune Posted February 11, 2004 shroomery.org says you can get by without a pressure cooker - just using a normal saucepan with a good fitting lid, but you have to boil for longer, and keep topping up the water. What do you think of them apples? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
visualfx Posted February 12, 2004 yeah, works fine...takes longer! large cooking pot with lid, water half way up jars (never had to top up!?). The process is to boil your jars for an hour, 3 times consecutively at ~24 hour intervals. i wish i had a PC... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 12, 2004 lolthe gnomedown the road just got a bad batch of grain ... not even 2 * 30 min pc's for 1.5 kg jars saved him....(semi fractional .. each cook a day apart) nasty nasty bacteria ... tiny jars were well sterilised with 1 * 30 min tho ... never never never without a pc .... the gnomedown the road is trying popcorn next ,.. also tried budgie seed instead of wbs.. more types of millet (& lots more millet to other seed ratio) - it contamed less but is still not great ..too much wheat in it (all contams seem to break out from the wheat .,it IS evil) lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted February 14, 2004 electro: lolthe gnomedown the road just got a bad batch of grain ... not even 2 * 30 min pc's for 1.5 kg jars saved him....(semi fractional .. each cook a day apart) nasty nasty bacteria ... tiny jars were well sterilised with 1 * 30 min tho ... never never never without a pc .... the gnomedown the road is trying popcorn next ,.. also tried budgie seed instead of wbs.. more types of millet (& lots more millet to other seed ratio) - it contamed less but is still not great ..too much wheat in it (all contams seem to break out from the wheat .,it IS evil) lol. LOLyes wheat is EVIL, well its great sometimes and evil most of the time Millet is good, Ryegrass is excellent, Rice is excellent, Sorghum is good. Let me get this straight - you are PC'ing 1.5kg lots of grain for only 30min at a time? If so that is WAY too short I PC a 1.5kg bag for at LEAST 90 mins at 122 C and still lose some. oR I crank it up to 132 C for just over an hour. I wouldnt recommend putting more than 500 -750g of grain in any one conatiner unless you have a pretty damn good PC or a true autoclave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted February 14, 2004 Just thinking WBS? Wheat? R U sure? its not Rye? Anyway both are evil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 14, 2004 The gnome down the road asked me to post this reply: Originally posted by reville:[QB] Just thinking WBS? Wheat? R U sure? its not Rye? pretty sure - there is some in farmland budgie mix too, and it has a picture of the offender on the side calling it wheat (at least he thought thats what it said) ... looks like rice with a husky shell that floats .. goes goey after 3 days & starts wet spot rot ... edit - new contam rates. budgie seed & wbs all contamed ... last grain cook (the one that had 1.5 kg jars) must have been an extremley good batch as both the wbs & budgie mix since have contamed. -------------------------------------------- next on list to try (god bless ample amounts of dextrose culture) * popcorn (in progress) Preperation - 8hr soak, 1 hr drain, 40 min pc, 20 min pc, 5 min pc) * popcorn with 40% h202 Preperation - 8hr soak, 1 hr drain, 40 min pc, 20 min pc, 5 min pc) ( * rice (as suggested by rev) rev whats your suggested soak & cook time for rice ? * rice with 40% h202 h202 10 min grain spawn //./.. has anyone found out what this is, where to get it & if it works .. (it sounds too good to be true .. 10 min pc & all done after a soak ???) [ 15. February 2004, 09:27: Message edited by: electro ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted February 16, 2004 budgie seed & wbs all contamed ... last grain cook (the one that had 1.5 kg jars) must have been an extremley good batch as both the wbs & budgie mix since have contamed. Increase PC time Peroxide wont help much unless you totally denature the peroxidases - and if you sterilise it to that point and have a filter patch - then you dont need H202 H202 is good for growing out on pasteurised highly processed materials like paper pellets and Powdered milk -------------------------------------------- Do you think your dextrose might be the source of contam?? Liquid culture has that one serious drawback * popcorn (in progress) Preperation - 8hr soak, 1 hr drain, 40 min pc, 20 min pc, 5 min pc) Id soak it, cook it to plumpness, drain thoroughly. Def increase PC #1 to an hour at least as it takes time for the core to heat up and 40 mins isnt enough to be reliable * rice (as suggested by rev) rev whats your suggested soak & cook time for rice ? No soak. Use medium or short grain BROWN rice. Cook by absobtion method 1 cup of rice to 1 and 3/4 water for the first cup and 2 cups water per cup of rice thereafter Rice cookers are the shit... o/wise bring to boil then put lid on and turn down as low as possible for 20 mins. Turn off allow to sit - perfect rice everytime Load into jars/tubs and PC 1 hour at 15 psi Lowest contam rate yet no good as spawn BUt it does tend towards being sticky and can be hard to get outunless the sides are tapered ie mason jars, Vacola jars or glass tumblers h202 10 min grain spawn //./.. has anyone found out what this is, where to get it & if it works .. (it sounds too good to be true .. 10 min pc & all done after a soak ???) If you have a PC anyway why bother? Adding some 3% (mostly for the O2 it provides )to a PC'd jar will help but if you have the PC theres no reason to mess with the quite dangerous 35% H202 [ 15. February 2004, 23:01: Message edited by: reville ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 17, 2004 mmm the gnome down the road only eats medium grain brown rice when he does actually eat the stuff. could the stickyness be avoided by washing in cold water after the cook (as one would if they didnt like eating sticky rice) to wash away excess starch (which tends to cake all rice at the best of times) and follow that with a drip dry in a pasta strainer ? also the dextrose culture has been looked at as a contam source. although no vial shows any clouding, all have no smell (smelled vials discarded), no bubbling or floating of "cotton balls" and very ropey looking bright white growth noted a few days after innoculation of grain (selected by using only the most vigerous growths in syringes). The main problem for the gnome down the road is making grain too wet (and not pcing long enough) - the popcorn looked dry enough, but is now in slight puddles .. not much hope is held for it, despite the fuzzy growth showing at the top of the jar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smogs Posted February 17, 2004 yeah i tryed PC popcorn that was very dry (after boiling it) and water seeped out and is in puddles now too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beaker Posted February 17, 2004 I'm trying popcorn at the moment: 24 hr soak EDIT: 1 hr cook 30 min drain 1 hr PC All is looking good at the moment, no contams (only day 5 though), in jar with poly filter. I'll keep you posted. [ 20. February 2004, 09:47: Message edited by: Beaker ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted February 18, 2004 Ok Beaker - between the soak and drain did you cook it? Im afraid rice will never be any use as spawn in the conventional sense because it lacks a harde enough 'shell' like other grains which is teh bit that keeps the grains discrete. It makes fine cakes though and you can add in some vermiculite to give it structure Im not familiar with the popcorn weeping issue- ill have to try it again and take a look. When ive used corn ive mostly used hard maize and found it useful for direct fruiting of shimeji and Pleurotus eryngii (yum) I read on the shroiomery recently that reishi will fruit directly off it - it doesnt off the other grains. I was just reading through my vol 1 and 2 of the peroxide manula again - great stuff and i recommend it highly Equally with TMC and more than GGMM texts in terms of practicality With this manual your dog could grow mushrooms... [ 18. February 2004, 01:47: Message edited by: reville ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 19, 2004 The gnome down the road said "lol the popcorn failed ... the accumilation of water turned the lower kernels to mush which now have a slight bacterial smell & are now sticky ... non mushy fully colonised kernels are being cased anyway... just for extraction practice if they fruit ...(why waste perfectly good [for extraction] mycellium) funnily enough infected millet (with the same slight sweet smell) once cased & placed in open containers in the garden this smell dissapears & mycellial growth is unaffected by it." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beaker Posted February 20, 2004 Yep... did the cook... forgot to put that bit in.. sorry... [ 20. February 2004, 09:46: Message edited by: Beaker ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liquid wolf Posted February 20, 2004 Hey i've been away for 6 weeks, befor i left on my trip i sprinkled some spores about in my mate's garden and he has just informed me that they grew! i mostly put them on lawn clippings and that's where he noticed them. They only lasted a day and then were gone without a trace! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 25, 2004 lol @ They only lasted a day and then were gone without a trace! those nasty gnomes eating all you garden mushies ! hehehe rev, thx for the tip on rice ... the gnome down the road is 4 days through and already all looks good .. no contam (yet) and very healty looking myc. (also dry verm was added at the bottom below the rice to stop any pooling of water (if excess was to appear. 2 ml 3% peroxide was injected into each jar after pcing and the rice was washed, strained and combined with vermiculite (4 cups rice to 2 cups verm to fill 6 jars) to wash away some excess starch and to ensure decent air flow through the mix.) thankyou (oh yea, it was pc'd for 30 mins each cook two days in a row (as the pc runs out of water at 37 mins)) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smogs Posted February 25, 2004 elctro: if its running out of water when it starts wooshing and smooshing etc turn it right down so that air is only comming out and a very small hiss its still the same temp and pressure but you lose water much slower (the weight shouldnt be bouncing around madly) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest electro Posted February 26, 2004 wow i would have though i was getting a slightly higher pressure (as the excaping air sounds like it is being forced much harder) . thx for the tip though, the gnome down the road will give that a shot next cook then (it will probably save a whole bunch of gas too ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
