All the kratom herb being sold around the world is a rip-off !!!!

[Torsten]

I have had my doubts about this for a long time and now the proof has come in.

As the material is active and to most people quite pleasant, I am not dissuading anyone from buying it. However, it would be good for all retailers and their customers to be aware that what they are trading is NOT kratom. This warning applies to kratom herb, 'kratom acetate', 'Mitragyna extract', and Mitragyna speciosa seed. These products are being offered at very high prices from many different vondors but all come from the same source.

First it was clear that the kratom being sold everywhere did not fit the botanical description for Mitragyna speciosa and then the effects were not quite right. And what made me stumble the most was that kratom has never tested at above 1.5% alkaloids in any study, but people who are extracting the fake stuff report alkaloid levels of about 4%.

I was also shown a seedling of the plant that is supposed to be the source of the kratom and it is quite obviously NOT in the Rubiaceae family.

We are no closer to working out what the stuff is, but we now know it is NOT Mitragyna speciosa.

This warning applies to ALL kratom products currently on the market as all of them are sourced from 'Bruno' in France.

While the material on the market is definitely of some activity, it is unclear at the moment what the alkaloid might be. There is conflicting evidence whether it is another indole or not, with my own experience indicating it is not.

here the TLC report from Daniel Siebert:

===================================================

Today (20 march 2002) I did thin layer chromatography of several samples of kratom and

mitragynine.

Jon Hanna provided me with reference samples of mitragynine picrate and

mitragynine ethane disulphonate, both of which had originally been obtained

from specialty chemical suppliers. Both reacted with Erlich's reagent to

produce pale purple spots on my TLC plates. Neither of these compounds are

entirely pure. The TLC profiles of both samples were almost identical. Both

produced two matching spots: one prominent spot (presumably mitragynine )

and one smaller spot. The mitragynine ethane disulphonate also produced a

third spot that was smaller than the other two. I was also able to visualize

the compounds using UV light. The larger spot absorbs short wave UV light.

The smaller spots fluoresce bright yellow under long wave UV light.

Apparently mitragynine is reasonably stable, since the profile of the

fourteen year old mitragynine ethane disulphonate was not substantially

different than that of the recently procured mitragynine picrate.

I also examined "kratom acetate" sold by Ethnogarden and leaves sent to me

from France by Bruno. These leaves are allegedly from Myanmar (Burma). The

"kratom acetate" was supposedly isolated from leaves obtained from the same

source. Neither of these produced any visible indole spots on the plates

when sprayed with Erlich's reagent. And when exposed to UV light, there were

no spots corresponding to those in the reference standards. It is very clear

that these do not contain mitragynine. This is not particularly surprising

since the morphology of the leaves indicates that they are not Mitragyna

speciosa.

I also analyzed leaves grown by Lee Rathbun, Torsten Wiedemann, and Jim

Bauml. And also leaves obtained from Ben Kamm (he obtained these from Rob

Montgomery who obtained them from Thailand) and some leaves from an "unknown

source" that were sent to me by Will Beifuss (probably the same as the

leaves from Ben Kamm). All of these produced spots that appear identical to

the reference standards. In the case of the relatively fresh leaves obtained

from Lee, Torsten, and Jim, a green chlorophyll spot largely obscures the

mitragynine spot, making it difficult to see. I was not able to see this

clearly until I examined the chromatograms under UV light and compared them

with the reference standards.

[Thelema]

i dont understand something: if all the "kratom" o/seas currently being sold does NOT contain mitragynine, then where does all of the mitragynine acetate picrate being sold o/seas etc come from? Is it made synthetically?

[mesq]

Originally posted by Torsten:

However, it would be good for all retailers and their customers to be aware that what they are trading is NOT kratom. This warning applies to kratom herb, 'kratom acetate', 'Mitragyna extract', and Mitragyna speciosa seed .

I think Torsten said something to that effect

[ 21. March 2003, 18:31: Message edited by: Mesqualero ]

[waterdragon]

looks like dragibus' secret is out, it was hidden in plain sight and high in alkaloids too. stock up before dragibus is banned.

[Thelema]

MESQ, i know what T said. What I asked about specifically was "Mitragynine acetate", which Is not in T's list for the following reason: it is not "mitragyna extract" nor kratom extract nor kratom acetate nor mitragyna acetate. I can accept that a wrong plant presumed to be kratom and presumed to be named as a mitragyna species can produce all of the latter. But the phrase "mitragynine acetate" is particularly different in that it is the name of an actual chemical.Since Daniel Seibert managed to obtain Mitragynine picrate in the above experiment, and I know of a certain place o/seas where Mitragynine acetate can be bought, then it follows to reason that either it really IS mitragynine acetate, OR, as you point out, it could join the list, and the vendor has just on a wrong assumption gone from mitragyna acetate to mitragynine acetate.

[Torsten]

Most vendors quite cleverly call their acidified extract "mitragyna acetate". This does not mean it is mitragynine acetate and most of them will aknowledge that. Some will even point out in their blurb that mitragyna acetate is only about 50% mitragynine acetate, being based on the assumption that Mitragyna speciosa total alkaloids are comprised of about 50% mitragyine.

In fact, now that we know that these extracts do not contain ANY mitragynine, these blurbs which were trying to do the right thing by being more helpful are actually the more blatantly dishonest ones.

Could you please tell me who advertises as 'mitragynine acetate'??

There are now many people around the world growing the Rifat clone, plus a few dozen / hundred (??) other plants also from a single reliable source. Their material has been shown to be the real thing and I would recommend that any potential customer ask their supplier for the source of the herb. Sadly, the few plants that are currently being grown all over the world are not going to be a reliable supply for good herb for at least a couple of years to come. I presume that it will take that long anyway for the damage to clear that this crap has caused.

Once we can work out what this fake kratom is, I am sure a spot test can be divised to protect customers and honest retailers.

[Rev]

as a sideline while in Bali i spotted a plant that to me looked identical to Mitrgyna speciosa

It wasnt in flower and had no seed pods

the cutting began to strik after 2 weeks in perlite

I was later advised that it was a species of Nauclea and the native name is 'Bungkel'

now im back ill take a look and see if the web can help.

I may be able to get herb and seed at a later date.

[Thelema]

Torsten,I have already told you who advertises

"mitragyine Acetate". Please check your PM, and I will re-affirm the website that offers this to direct your attention more closely.

[Rev]

I was hoping to find M speciosa or M javanica given their ranges - not the sample from new guinea

http://www.undcp.org/odccp/bulletin/bullet...ge005.html#s160

the plant was very very similar - even to the red colouration on the new growth

however Pak arinas from the botanic gardens in Bali is certain it is a Nauclea sp

called bungkel - which is the name i was given by 2 locals independently

heres the native sp. (Australia)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/297...970/nauclea.htm

and Mitragyna javanica

http://w3y.pharm.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/plant/p...photo_uid1=1702

And now i find this - Mitragyna parvifolia is synonymous with Nauclea parvifolia- mmm. can anyone tell me more about the taxonomic relationship between the 2? Physiologically it seems very close

http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea...asp?SpecID=2305

also on this site

http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea...asp?SpecID=2308

a new name for M speciosa - Kedemba

and this

http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea...asp?SpecID=2363

The native species to Australia seems also to be found in asia

and goes by the names Mambog and krathum khlong

very interesting

If anyone in Adelaide wants to bioassay there is one growing in the conservatorium and the leaves are quite large and accessible

treat with caution

[Torsten]

While surfing for suppliers of this stuff I found many, including some who know full well this stuff is dodgey. The burden of proof should be on the supplier, not on the customer, so when the first doubts were voiced these suppliers should have been a little more careful rather than screwing the last few $$'s out of the scam.

So I have decided to post all URL's to scamming suppliers early in the week. I often find this the only way to make people honest. That list of URL's will quickly find its way everywhere on the net, so it might be a good idea not to make it onto it right from the start. Until we know what this stuff is we should not be taking the risk of spreading it around.

[Torsten]

Reville - you know how much time I hav spent with this particular species, so you can imagine how I freked when I saw what I thought were kratom plants in a native nursery in far north QLD. Turned out they were Neonaucleas.

Anyway, they are all members of the Naucleaceae section of the Rubiaceae. Hallea is also included in that and you will find Hallea parvifolia is another terms used for Mitragyna parvifolia. Halleas are usually the ones in africa, while in asia they are called Mitragyna. There are obviously crossovers.

And yes, the whole Naucleaceae is very interesting. Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) is another well known member.

[Torsten]

Thelema - the place you mention does NOT have mitragynine acetate. This is a ridiculous claim they make (even if they started with real kratom) and they will certainly be on the list of published URL's.

[woof woof woof]

hmmmmmm,

At least we know, that we have an interesting plant pending research.. especially bio essay's.

hmmmm, with Thailands new drug program... anyone care to go there and get the real thAng for us

[Darklight]

Does that mean that the proposed TGA scheduling of mitragynine ( which may or may not have happened already ) could be based on research from improperly identified starting materials?

[Torsten]

The TGA doesn't need research to ban something....

but no, I don't think they looked at any recent research for this.

[Darklight]

So they are proposing scheduling a product that is currently commercially unavailable, except as a fraudulently labelled form?

How can they be sure if it needs scheduling if all current reports of use are based on a product that contains no mitragynine? There would be no officially recognised way to determine the therapeutic effects of the products labelled mitragynine, sounds like bad science to me... *sigh* I suppose there is a precedent somewhere in the vaults...

[Thelema]

[ 24. March 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: Thelema ]

[Rev]

I think its interesting that Mitragyna is in the unique position of being entirely undetectable amongst rainforest vegetation given the enormous number of other species that look so similar to it

how the thais intend to eradicate it is beyond me

[woof woof woof]

Darklight:

So they are proposing  scheduling a product that is currently commercially unavailable, except as a fraudulently labelled form?

[Thelema]

TORSTEN, could you give us all a brief description of the subjective effects of this "false" kratom/kratom acetate? And how it differs from the real thing?

[Torsten]

I made a tea of the fake stuff and tried to drink it, but I don't think I have the stomach for such experiments anymore. It's still sitting in the fridge. Planning on maiking some simple crude extract and trying that soon.

People who have tried both generally say that the fake stuff doesn't have the uplifting qualities. ie, it is stimulating, but not as pleasant as real kratom.

I will know more in a week;)

I should also add at this point that the place that offers the mitragynine acetate has now confirmed that it does not contain mitragyine. AS this is the same place responsible for virtually all the 'kratom' extracts on the market we can now be certain that all of the 'kratom' extracts do not contain mitragynine (or kratom for that matter).

Things have been developing very fast. Some people were initially very defensive, but have now changed their midn and are now also helping to clear this up. This means that as I wite updates they are almost immediately outdated. Things shold settle down to concensus very soon. I will be putting up an info page in a day or two.

I will not be listing any vendors at this stage as the natural process of this information filtering down the line is working extremely well. We will however list vendors who are still running the scam a few weeks after being notified.

[Torsten]

all the details in a concise package

http://www.shaman-australis.com/Website/Mi...peciosaFake.htm

[theobromos]

Could we have pictures of the plant and herb material? I would like to see them. A more detailed description of the smell, too, please? Perculiar means it smells like coffee?

Have you considered the possibility that "Mellow Gold" is an innocuous plant doped with something (chemical, extracted, legal or illegal) known and easily available?

[Torsten]

Originally posted by theobromos:

Could we have pictures of the plant and herb material? I would like to see them.

My darling is hogging the digicam. Will make an effort to get these done asap.

A more detailed description of the smell, too, please? Perculiar means it smells like coffee?

Well, it's not coffee. But other than that i really haven't got a clue. It has a faint smell of tobacco when opening a bag of it, but that is probably just the curing smells. The smell when crushing is very faint.

Have you considered the possibility that "Mellow Gold" is an innocuous plant doped with something (chemical, extracted, legal or illegal) known and easily available?

Yes I had. Actually on one forum or the other I may have actually suggested that it might be tobacco due to the smell. However, I am now of the firm belief that it is in fact a member of the Naucleaceae as all the botanical bits and pieces point that way. And as such my theory that it might simply be nicotine etc is also obsolete. I am sure this is aan indole(mix).

[theobromos]

But without the reaction to Erlich's?