seti X somni, cross

[VINS]

hi everybody, that's a long time i talk you!

i have the project to cross to species of papaver, the setigerum with the somniferum.

i remember reading something here about setigerum and one member had some seeds from wild plants but unfortunatly, i can't remember him.

please, could you help me finding this strain ?

i of course could send seeds compensation, i have some interesting p.s strains, just let me know.

i thank you for your help

ciao

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Bonjour Vin's

I think you maybe talking of Theo who is, luckily, in access of a puter and should be in later this evening (Europe). He has them growing around him in the Sierra Nevada in Spain, lovely little things.

I have some seeds and would love to swap with you for the hybrid.

voyez-vous plus tard

[ 17. October 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: Slarty Fart Blaster ]

[theobromos]

Whichever, whomever it is equal to me and to you.

Remember to note that they are Alpujarran P. setigerum from slarty as it is quite likely that the different strains of P. setigerum are very different. Many are isolated geographically in Mountain valleys or islands. Chemical studies have certainly shown distinct differences in the major alkaloids.

[ 17. October 2003, 06:57: Message edited by: theobromos ]

[theobromos]

And that includes the wildish strains found in Australia or other places to which it is not native, it probably evolved in a geographically isolated place.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Sorry Vin's , i have misunderstood.

I now see that you plan to cross some seti's with some somni's and you would like some seti's.

PM me and i will get a few to you.

[VINS]

thanks Slarty, thanks Theo,

i am sorry but i didn't correctly understand your answers.(if you could be enough cool to repeat more simply... )

and yes Slarty, i plan to cross setgerum and persian somniferum. it could be an interesting cross regarding the morpho traits of setigerum and his morphine production. regarding studie who could show a difference in seti variations, i never seen enough infos on seti and only find one quantity alkaloid analyse on the internet.

i don't understand who have the seeds and who ever see some growing widly arround him ?

let me know who i need to email and if you're interesting in some of my seeds ?

thanks again

V

[Andrew]

Hi Vins

I sent some wild collected seed to the

AFSR(collected from rail crossing in N.S.W.)and

I think I might still have some myself,have to search for them today.

[VINS]

theo, could you tell me more about your knowledge on seti variations ?

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Theo wont be back till the 29th.

[Plantsoma]

Heres a good link discussing P.somniferum & P.setigerum crosses:

web page

:D

[Torsten]

reville pointed out to me that setigerum has double the number of cromosomes as somniferum. ie. setigerum is 4n of somnferum's 2n. if this is true, then any cross should result in 3n, ie a triploid plant, which should be infertile.... right?

[Andrew]

Vins ,check your pm,s.

[VINS]

Dazd, i can't check this webpage and since i can't access to p.org forum from a week , i presume that this is a org link ? (could you copy the raw text here ? please)

Torsten, that's really interesting but could you tell me more ? please (thanks to you too Reville)

andrew, i will go and check them now

[Torsten]

Originally posted by VIN'S:

Torsten, that's really interesting but could you tell me more ? please (thanks to you too Reville)

I can only repeat what reville said, so if you have any more questions, maybe ask him.

Apparently somniferum cannot be derived from setigerum (a popular theory) as setigerum has double the number of cromosomes. However, this fact also indicates that setigerum and somniferum are likely to come from a common ancestor. (I am not sure why setigerum can't be derived from sominferum, but I am sure this has been thought of).

So anyway, in normal polyploidy breeding you first double the number of chromosomes from 2n to 4n (this is what probably happened to setigerum). This can happen naturally, but it can also be chemically induced. If you then cross this 4n with a 2n you get 6/2n = 3n.

For some reason 3n is sterile in most cases. I don't understand why, as it should be able to cross with another 3n, but that is beyond my understanding at this point (anyone understand this?? help??)

that's all I know really...

[theobromos]

There are these two quite different analyses:

http://cccc.uochb.cas.cz/Vol/61/No07/19961047.html

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/bulletin/bul..._2_page006.html

Slarty has seed from within 10 kilometres of the first find of opium poppy heads with humans. The above analyses do not give origins for the strains analysed.

[Rev]

Torsten:

For some reason 3n is sterile in most cases. I don't understand why, as it should be able to cross with another 3n, but that is beyond my understanding at this point (anyone understand this?? help??)

that's all I know really...

im a bit rusty but i think its something to do with a stage in meiosis where all the chromosomes need a partner.if they dont get one then theres a drastic reduction in fertility

I dont think 3n is a problem per se if the natural ploidy number of a species is 3

but im sure in order to be fertile the offspring need an even set of chromosomes eg

some are all over the place (wheats)

i cant comment too much on all this at the expense of putting my foot in it - will have to go away and do a refresher

anyway the alleged reason why setigerum isnt the ancestor is because it has double the chromosomes of somniferum

now the approximate reason why this is significant is because its not very plausible that a species gives rise to another species that is effectively a haploid version of itself

Its more plausible that a tetraploid would occur so if the ploidy wa sreversed then it woul dbe likley

all this needs references and ill be picking up my poppy book later today

[Rev]

An F 1 hybrid was found to grow in the violet-flowered strain in 1956. The chromosome number in the root-tip cell was 2n= 33, which was the stun of the gametic chromosome numbers of P. setigerum n = 22, and P. somniferum n = 11 (fig. 3). At the first meiotic metaphase in the pollen mother cell (PMC), 11 bivalent and 11 univalent chromosomes were observed (fig. 4). The chromosome behaviour in meiosis of PMCs of the F 1 hybrid was of the type of Pilosella.

ok this looks good - so a cross is easily done

i realised my mistake, i wonder how stable the line is.

[ozzy]

hey vin did you get my seeds yet,if so are they the right ones?

[VINS]

this is Ozzy flowers :

[VINS]

ozzy, are they ?? ;

-setigerum

-somniferum

-wild setiXsomni cross

-garden setiXsomni cross

[ozzy]

i dont really know for sure but i know they are the wild one's and maybe they are crossed,anyway you will get my letter soon,and inside there is a pod to show you what it is.

[t st tantra]

i have seen similar plants growing to the picture but they had a ring of purple on the rim of the pod cap.they may have come from supermarket seed packet,'mellow yellow',product of aust.

any guesses as to id?

t s t .

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Bon jour vins

Well i just got back from the post office, i made it there at last. Better late than never. Hope you enjoy the Logans. Good luck with the hybrids, keep us posted.

All the best mate.

[VINS]

here we have an expression which says something like ; it is never too late to do well...

thank you :D