Infinite Peyote?

[apothecary]

I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Does anyone have any life cycle information on L. williamsi?

How long do they live for? At what point does one of these beautiful cacti decide to stop growing and die, and why?

Or don't they? Under the proper care, would it be possible for a peyote to live forever?

[Vanda]

Off the top of my head - I'm quite sure they'd just keep growing. even if the leader is lost the side buds will take over, forming most likely a small colony of 2-3 or whatever individuals connected to the same rootball. That way, I think, they could keep going for ever. Recently one of mine has started producing a lot of little plantlets from where the usual cottony tufts are, some of them resemble little cacti already. bearing in mind this variety is a non-puping one, and rarely has produced any pups,it's quite amazing. Seams they're quite good at proliferating and multiplying in any way possible. Leaving in harsh environments it makes sense I guess...

[apothecary]

You've got to admit, the prospect that a peyote could stay with your family line for many if not infinite generations is an amazing one.

[teonanacatl]

i think they usually die due to carer before their age limit runs out.

[apothecary]

teo, what is their age limit?

[Jack]

I worked it out with the previos owner of my plants and 2 of mine are over 40years old and still going strong.

[devils_cactus]

Holy moly.

That's old.

[apothecary]

40 years is a long time, but many plants can live that long.

I'm curious as to what the actual life span of a peyote in perfect conditions sans predators, bad weather, etc would be.

i.e. if in the end, some mechanism would trigger where the plant simply dies.

[smogs]

do plant cells have a limit of the number of divides they can perform... like animal cells?

main reason for this is because after copying DNA so many times chances of mutations increase to a point where can cause problems (e.g. cancer)

[teonanacatl]

apothecary, thats it how do you know the age limit when they never reach their full potential. some cacti grow for over 500 years. smogs, the idea behind the constant propergating of plants from cuttings of cuttings of cuttings etc doesnt seem to harm the plant and infact the more generations are grown from cuttings of cuttings etc the more readily they strike. there is that tree that budda sat under (bodi tree??) anyway they have been replacing it with cuttings taken from it when it dies. not sure how long this has been going on for. the main problem that im aware off with taking cuttings generation after generation is that it cuts down genetic diversity which means should disease come there all plants have same risistance be it high or low and no adaptation to the environment can occur through sexual propergation.

[apothecary]

Good post teo.

The tree the Buddha attained enlightenment under was called a bodhi tree, although you could be forgiven for saying bodi.

I didn't know they've kept cuttings of it. Do you know if it's possible to obtain such a cutting?

I'm not a buddhist but I have spent a large portion of my short life studying religious text from buddhist scrolls to the book of mormon.

The only impressive thing about religion that has stuck in my head, I think, must be the bodhi tree. I would love to have a cutting of that tree.

You're 100% right though. Cloning is not a cause of genetic drift. The whole concept of genetic drift via cloning is simply an artefact of the 70's cannabis growing underground culture, and is often the subject of heated discussion on sites like overgrow.

I've done my own research on the issue and all scientific observation on the matter has proven that it simply isn't true.

Asexual genetic drift only occurs in situations where the DNA of the plant itself decides to change (known as punctured evolution), or when it is affected by a virus or somesuch.

[ 23. February 2005, 22:59: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[Benzito]

On a recent visit to the SAB nursery, I was speaking to one of the guys working there. Didn't catch his name though, unfortunately.

He told me about a 20 year old peyote he had been caring for...

Until some careless person threw dishwater, or detergent, on it. He didn't notice until it was a pile of mush a few days later.

What a heartbreaking story.

[gusto]

In his book 'Sacred Cacti', K Trout states that he has encountered in natural habitat, peyote with a diameter of ~20cm. Such specimens he presumes to be "possibly hundreds of years of age."

If any of these plants still exist in the wild, I hope they are never found. It would be a rare person with the proper respect to leave such a plant undisturbed.

[Rev]

smogs:

do plant cells have a limit of the number of divides they can perform... like animal cells?

main reason for this is because after copying DNA so many times chances of mutations increase to a point where can cause problems (e.g. cancer)

Animal cells do not in fact have a limited number of multiplications

that idea was based on the telomere theory. Telomeres are duplicate non coding sequences on the end of chromosomes that the DNA replication appartust latched onto to start teh sequence,think of the starting latch on your trouser or sleeping bag zipper) each tim it happens it loses the bit it starts on so each time a cell divide dthe telomeres shorten so eventually there nothing to get started on so the cell can replicate

this discovery led to the programmed lifespan theory

however it was later disproven when enzymes caled telomerases were found to active to greater or lesser degree in many cells

these enzymes tack on new sections

in contarts many non dividing cell types still have extensive telomere sections

therefor the length of the telomere is not the ultimate factor in cell replication

the rate of regulation seems to be variable according to whatever the cell line needs

also cell lineages do mutate but there are so many redundant systems in place that for intents and purposes a perrennial plant is immortal

a lot of data we have on cell senescence is based on laboratory data collected from cell lines grown in aseptic conditions and subjected to states of under and over nutrition in votro and also multiplication via unnatural means and with abnormal hormone and irradiation gradents

all this pushes the selective pressure for mutations to arise way up and eliminates many of the control mechanisms the cell as a community in the whole plant is subject to

age for a plant is more about structural senescence. its trunk rots or its support roots rot off

the integrity of the cell line is rarely in jeopardy. They can be rejuvenated with ease in most cases and still ultimately in all unless there is a secondary issue of inbuilt senescence - like annual plants and long term mass floweres like bamboo with an inbuilt clock

humans are subject to this too - and as ive spoken of befeore ageing is mostly a cancer prevention strategy, cells get irreversibly switched off when they mutate beyond a certain level and the increasing farction of old cells in the poulation weakens the integrity and responsiveness of the system leading to further decline and ultimately death.

Animals have complex moving parts and so we have a much finer tuned genetic code

we have certain numvers of chromosomes and gene sets and most deviation automatically results in death

Plants have less specialised tissues, have more ephemeral organs and can rejuvenate and assexually propagete. they have a much much gretare tolerance to genetic alteration as seen in the variation in ploidy in most cultivated crops

so my considered take on it is..

yes a peyote could live forever providing every few 00 years an animal vector ie human took an actively growing section and moved it to fresh ground

[occidentalis]

Rev:

the telomeres shorten so eventually there nothing  to get started on so the cell can replicate

this discovery led to the programmed lifespan theory

however it was later disproven when enzymes caled telomerases were found to active to greater or lesser degree in many cells

these enzymes tack on new sections

However doesn't telomerase production becomoe less reliable as cells age?