pachanoi potency

[mr b.caapi]

if a gnome was to dry a pachanoi cutting for 2 months...would the strength of the active alks.

increase?

[toby]

by weight the potency would have increased,

if it grew for 2 months the potency may decrease,

but you would have more of what you wanted in total. hope that makes sense

[mr b.caapi]

it does,thanks alot....

[Guest electro]

yea, from my understanding of it:

the cutting will not gain any more "potency" but will contain more alkaloids by weight.

Eg (numbers just examples)

cutting weighs 50g fresh and contains 50mg alkaloids

after 2 months it weighs 300 grams but still contsins 50mg alkaloids (so long as they havent been in a strong base and degraded)

so it IS mor e"potent" ratio wise

ie 500:50 (10:1) VS 300:50 (6:1)

However if you had stuck it in the ground (if it had roots) it may now weigh 600 grams and contain 60 mg alkaloids

ratio 600:60 (10/1)

[Torsten]

Various experiences tell me that cacti do produce more alkaloids once they are cut. I presume it is a defense mechanism. So while it is certainly true that the alkaloid content increases (by weight) as the weight decreases, I am pretty sure it also increases in total.

Waterstress is often cited as the defence trigger, but as some cuttings don't seem to loose much water at all (especially in our subtropical summer), this is probably only half the answer.

[mr b.caapi]

thanks torsten,i was waiting for such a reply,as i have heard the"defense mech." story and was curious about the reality of it.....

[si0uxsie]

It is common technique - to stress plants to make them more potent. Hemp and t.pachanoi affected. The simpliest stress for both these plants is to keep them in dry substrates. Some just do not water plants often, other do some injuries just above the ground making normal water absorbtion process broken. I've heard about same technique for s.divinorum but not tried it.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

I really dont agree with stressing plants.

Take hemp for example, it has been shown that water stress increases thc content but what i have seen happening is that when you water stress this plant it will drop allot of leaf so therfore by weight it wil have a higher % thc. I would much rather have a stong, healthy plant much better suited to defend it's self against disease and in the long run be a bigger plant giving a bigger yield.

 

quote:

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It is common technique

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Used by who ???

Obviously with a cacti watering is an issue but this is simply

imitating the environment in a desert climate.

[Torsten]

slarty farty - the stressing on cannabis is only done in the last week or three, so it does not affect yield. However, this stressing is a little different and is actually done by starving the roots of nutrients. Simply ringbark the plant a week from picking. Nutrients then cannot travel down into the roots, but wate still travels up. The plant turns golden and is harvested before it dies completely.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Yes, i have heard of this, i think it was used to produce some of the weed comong from Colombia in the 70's. It just doesn't add up that a stressed plant wont lose yeild and all the evidence is that it will lose yeild even though you may have a higher resin %. The only method i have seen for increasing yeild is the opposite of this as the aim is to create a larger stem/trunk and therfore a greater flow of nutrients to the plant not by stressing it but by manipulating the growth of the trunk. Its done by puting a screw in the trunk or pushing a nail throught the trunk or pinching the trunk. This has been a hot topic in growing for many decades and has been debated at overgrow many times.

I guess it's down to what the grower feels comfortable with.

[toby]

perhaps a better defense mechanism for pachanoi would be to destroy alkaloids when they are cut,

if they actually produce more it wouldn't seem to be a very effective deterrent(unless the attacker were simply thirsty).

it does seem though to be an effective survival mechanism,

[mr b.caapi]

kill all alkaloids????....how?what?why??

[toby]

i just meant that seeing as they get cut so much for alkaloids, producing more when cut is like an incentive to chop them, but also an encouragement for people to propagate them.

[Torsten]

turps - I think in an evolutionary sense over the last few centuries, I don't think cutting for alkaloids has been an issue. Bugs and critters are much moe so.

Slarty - many plants use the constituents we think of as desirable as their defence mechanism. Thus in many plants the concentration of these substances will increase when the relevant threat is exerted. For cacti this is a branch breaking off and dehydrating in the desert sun. For salvia it is a lack of water. For many asteraceae and lauracea (among many) it is cold or dryness and they produce more essential oil. Phalaris grass for example will eb almost totally devoid of tryptamines if it is happy. only once it has water stress or grazing stress, then it produces defence alkaloids. A happy bushel may give you lots of biomass, but NO alkaloids. A stressed bushel will give you half the biomass, but lots of alkaloids.

And as I said before, the stressing is usually done in the very last phase of growth before harvest, where the biomass has already been fully developed. So there is minimal or no loss in quantity.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Oops, it appears my focus on terpenes has made me rather myopic.

When i was on a quest for the spirit molecule i found that phalaris grew all around me and did a little research and yes, i found the paper by Francesco Festi & Giorgio Samorini stating the increase of alkaloids after water stress. So i set about torturing the local population but soon found this source is as good as useless for extraction. Never bothered with it as an ayahuasca analogue either as i much prefer M.H.R.B.

Do you have any refs. for the increase in terpenes in S.D ?.

[woof woof woof]

Torsten:

Various experiences tell me that cacti do produce more alkaloids once they are cut. I presume it is a defense mechanism. So while it is certainly true that the alkaloid content increases (by weight) as the weight decreases, I am pretty sure it also increases in total.

Waterstress is often cited as the defence trigger, but as some cuttings don't seem to loose much water at all (especially in our subtropical summer), this is probably only half the answer.

this might not be 100% true..... Where I live there are 2 types of columnar cacti, which goats help themselves to when it gets absolutely dry. These cacti have some nice and thick spine coverage, which doesn't seem to deter them.

i planted some trichs in the wildernis here, and it seems that some goat took a bite out of one and quickly learned that It wasn't all that yummy & refeshing, considering that the local cacti eat half of the stem.

I think that plants, do not spend allot of their energy making more alkaloids when they do not have the energy (water + nutrient uptake) to make them. when cacti dry out, the alkaloids stay behind , thus it gets more concentrated, making it less disirable for any kind of critter to munch it.

I think that it is even possible that alkaloids settle more in the direction of the skin area, to clogg up the pores of the skin, to allow less evapouration.

I this should be of course proven scientifically if we want to be absolutely sure.....what's what!

We are aware of the processes that converts one alkaloid into another, leading to the production of mescalin....

hmmmm, what a nice word to say...... "M E S C A L I N"

[ 09. February 2003, 07:33: Message edited by: brian ]

[woof woof woof]

Torsten:

turps - I think in an evolutionary sense over the last few centuries, I don't think cutting for alkaloids has been an issue. Bugs and critters are much moe so.

Slarty - many plants use the constituents we think of as desirable as their defence mechanism. Thus in many plants the concentration of these substances will increase when the relevant threat is exerted. For cacti this is a branch breaking off and dehydrating in the desert sun. For salvia it is a lack of water. For many asteraceae and lauracea (among many) it is cold or dryness and they produce more essential oil. Phalaris grass for example will eb almost totally devoid of tryptamines if it is happy. only once it has water stress or grazing stress, then it produces defence alkaloids. A happy bushel may give you lots of biomass, but NO alkaloids. A stressed bushel will give you half the biomass, but lots of alkaloids.

And as I said before, the stressing is usually done in the very last phase of growth before harvest, where the biomass has already been fully developed. So there is minimal or no loss in quantity.

Don't Acacia's built up more alkaloids during the wintertime? Cold stress, or because the air is dry?

I think that alka's also promote healing, by drying and promoting the flow of the resins in the right direction, I mean dont we get all cotton mouthy when we indulge in most of them alka goodies?! and we heal ourselves from within ey! :D .....

maybe plants, just like to trip, just like we do, especially when the going gets tough... (all the hypocrisy & poo) hehehhe

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Slarty Fart Blaster:

Do you have any refs. for the increase in terpenes in S.D ?.

No, this has been my own observation and that of two large scale growers in mexico. In fact, in 'el nino' years (that means *wet* in south america) the mexican salvia is absolutely crap and the traders avoid it until the next crop.

I found that well watered salvia that is grown in a humid environment is also totally ineffective.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by brian:

I think that plants, do not spend allot of their energy making more alkaloids when they do not have the energy (water + nutrient uptake) to make them.

You're welcome to your opinion, but research shows otherwise Plants that produce antifeedant compounds usually increase production in times when the feeding stress may be higher (ie in drought, when there is not much feed around).

when cacti dry out, the alkaloids stay behind , thus it gets more concentrated, making it less disirable for any kind of critter to munch it.

There are plenty of other plants that do not have the wide range of moisture tolerance that cacti have. And in these there is also often a rise in alkaloids. It goes right back to what i said originally. The proof is in the experimentation.

I think that it is even possible that alkaloids settle more in the direction of the skin area, to clogg up the pores of the skin, to allow less evapouration.

alkaloids are present as soluble salts and do not go anywhere near the stomates.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Thnx T, very interesting indeed.

Its been a long time since i grew Ska Pastora and this was before i had heard of people doing away with humidity tents and yes, the raw leaf was ineffective, had to extract. My next question is, have you heard of hydro techniques for providing dry periods with timed pump watering's, i.e times between watering's. I hope my Portuguese S.D will be knock out then, if low humidity is a factor in potency.

 

quote:

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alkaloids are present as soluble salts and do not go anywhere near the stomates.

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This question has bugged me for years, i found this at the Hive recently.

 

quote:

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Theoretically, alkaloids will be present in a watery solution which means in their salt form. But dissolved salts become ionic (table salt in water breaks up in Na+ and Cl- ions). But as I said this is the theory. I have no idea if some plant alkaloids are present in not watery tissues. Perhaps there are some weird natural freebases.

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Has anyone ever done any research to confirm the salt theory ?.

[ 10. February 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: Slarty Fart Blaster ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Slarty Fart Blaster:

have you heard of hydro techniques for providing dry periods with timed pump watering's, i.e times between watering's.

nope, sorry.

and yes, alkaloids would be present as ions I believe. Not sure what you're getting at though.

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

Not getting at anything or anyone, just wondering.

[SirLSD]

hmm will have to wait and see what the potentcy of my hydro pedro is like!

[mr b.caapi]

hydro pedro eh!,cool..let me know how it gos....

[Guest Plantnursery]

Quote- many plants use the constituents we think of as desirable as their defence mechanism.

That statement sounds more like a theory than the actual truth.

To get more to the point of the original question, my friend has found that taking a 30cm cutting (sufficient for 1person) and letting the cut seal before placing inside, preferably in a dark spot, and then leaving it there for months - will work for increasing the potency.

In fact, a recent cutting even looks healthier, and a pup is sprouting from the top even though it has been inside for 3months!

Hope this helps.

bye.