Sceletium substitutes? Mesembryanthemum cordifolia tests poorly for mesembrine alkaloids ...

[fyzygy]

Aptenia was found to contain mesembrine alkaloids in significant concentrations, relative to the other taxa examined [e.g. Delosperma, Lampranthus], although these were only 13.6% of those seen in Sceletium. The ethnopharmacological significance of very low alkaloid levels in the majority of genera examined is clear: it would be almost impossible to achieve any pharmacological response from genera other than Sceletium, since approximately 60–80 kg of plant material (fresh weight) would have to be ingested to achieve a response. It is clear also that since Aptenia lacks mesembrenone its ‘fermentation’ would fail to produce elevated levels of this alkaloid.

 

^ from a 1998 article that may be of interest.  https://sci-hub.ru/https://doi.org/10.1076/phbi.36.3.173.6350 

 

[fyzygy]

Compared with S. tortuosom, I'd say fermented/dried A. cordifolia doesn't taste as good in a tea. And neither (for me) did it have as noticeable an effect. I took my samples at different stages of their respective growth cycles (Sceletium stems were dry and woody. Greener Aptenia material yielded a more vigorous fermentation).

 

Alchemica is vastly more experienced in growing, preparing and researching these plants, worth contrasting with my subjective impressions: 

 

 

 

 

[withdrawl clinic]

i have worked a lot with sceletium, but since the bust of ehtno (thanks howard and ch7 you low life) haven't done any work.

 

i think it could be illegal, as it can mimic the effects of mdma. but saying this just makes us realize how stupid howards blanket law, realy is.

the demand for fermented scelly powder is, not covered by production.

scelly has the potential, for a good income, for gardeners.

there are many websites, were people praise sceletium, after switching from ssri and snrs.

i never used ssri's or sceletium often, i don't like them, but one time, a flash of euphoria over came me, by using a special sceletium product!🥰

 

it's an easy cutting, and easy to grow, darrels plants produced seed easely. the strains before that, only produced seeds once for me in many years.

it's easy to grow many plants, and doesn't experience any pests....

 

[Alchemica]

Roots may be a more interesting option, that's where the researchers have been looking for antidepressant potential.

It's undisputedly much milder and requires higher doses but given it has traditional use as an anxiolytic and anti-inflammatory (Garden of Eden), it's got some potential merits if other options are less available. Keep in mind it's devoid of mesembrine, initial results that it had 13.6% the mesembrine of Sceletium were later disputed, instead has other alkaloids

1.8g alkaloid was obtained from 250g of dried roots. Considering 100mg/kg alkaloid fraction i.p. was found to be antidepressant in rats [1], which may be excessive, ~16mg/kg may potentially be needed for human antidepressant effects.  4,5-dihydro-4'-O-methylsceletenone and 4'-O-methylsceletenone were the dominant alkaloids in the root @ 0.235%, stems had ~ 0.1% [2].

Said, A. A. E., Ali, T. F. S., Attia, E. Z., Ahmed, A. S. F., Shehata, A. H., Abdelmohsen, U. R., & Fouad, M. A. (2020). Antidepressant potential of Mesembryanthemum cordifolium roots assisted by metabolomic analysis and virtual screening. Natural Product Research, 35(23), 5493–5497. https://doi.org/10.1080/14786419.2020.1788019

A study of Mesembryanthemaceae alkaloids (2006) Candice Delphine Gaffney https://def-sa.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Gaffney_Candice_D_2006_0.pdf

aptenia | PDF Host

[fyzygy]

In that case I'll definitely be hunting for roots. Do mesembrine alkaloids (like SSRIs) inhibit the effects of other psychoactive plant medicines? Or would they (like MAOIs) potentiate them? I have my suspicions, but wonder what others might be able to report. 

[Alchemica]

6 hours ago, fyzygy said:

In that case I'll definitely be hunting for roots. Do mesembrine alkaloids (like SSRIs) inhibit the effects of other psychoactive plant medicines? Or would they (like MAOIs) potentiate them? I have my suspicions, but wonder what others might be able to report. 

I haven't personally explored combinations but I've in a limited way heard of 'useful' potentiation of 5-HT1A/2A agonists but one would want to be cautious re adverse interactions. Definitely wouldn't combine with MAOIs. Mesembrine seems very atypical as a SSRI, if it is even one [1]. Depending on the alkaloid profile, it may be more a monoamine releaser through VMAT2 etc and different studies have pointed to that effect. Coupled with the PDE4 inhibition it may "enhance 5-HT2AR signaling by increasing cAMP levels"

[1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jep.2015.11.034

[Alchemica]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:48 PM, fyzygy said:

The ethnopharmacological significance of very low alkaloid levels in the majority of genera examined is clear: it would be almost impossible to achieve any pharmacological response from genera other than Sceletium, since approximately 60–80 kg of plant material (fresh weight) would have to be ingested to achieve a response. 

Even Lampranthus spp. has been commercially sold as 'Chinese Kanna',  so not sure about that?

[withdrawl clinic]

some people claimed, scelly stopps dmt from working.

others say, it' added color, or even scelly is halucigenic.