Flip Posted May 24, 2005 I've spoken about this on another forum and don't usually cross post However, since he's aussie... I think you should know about what this asshat is doing over here! Yes, I realize nobody's going to lay claim to this bozo... Guess it's best as another comment re: the state of the United States. Thread starter: from murples forums (sorry If I seem to be ranting) Alright, this has gone far enough... Bush and his "education" spending has gone far over the line When bozo's like this get capital for their religious"idears" in Kentucky! what ta do? How about buildin a Museum Seems like this dork is heading it up (Chaka's all growed up) Guess this grand milestone in human theology also has dinosaurs in Noah's ark for a extended cruse... Now, that explains everything! yeah, put the cripples in the back too... Cuz, they deserve no better as "jesus" has saw fit to punished them this way... I could say "let them talk" but this whole thing is crazy what ever happened to simple reason in this country... Oh, I know, it's "christian science" and it's without all those big, hard to say words n' stuff... that makes it all so easy to believe in "even a kid can understand it". could that be it? hummm check the site out... it's full of interesting things I like the fact that their Museum office space is so large compared to the exhibit space. I wonder what plans they have for that area...hummm... Links for bush funding: UPDATED RECORDS HERE Who's got the all the money quote: Here's an update on this phuknut. He's gotten some media attention and is about ready to open "His disneyland for the bible" what a religious d0rk quote: Ministry uses dinosaurs to dispute evolution How and when did life begin? Ken Ham wants you to find the answer in his $25 million Boone County creation museum By John Johnston Enquirer staff writer Ken Ham poses with dinosaur models in his unfinished $25 million Answers in Genesis museum. KEN HAM Occupation: President and chief executive officer, Answers in Genesis - United States. Born: Oct. 20, 1951, Cairns, a city in Queensland, Australia. (Holds dual U.S.-Australian citizenship.) Residence: Petersburg, Ky. Education: Bachelor's of applied science in biology and environmental science, Queensland Institute of Technology, Brisbane, Australia, 1973. Diploma of education, Queensland University, Brisbane, 1974. Family: Married to Marylyn "Mally" Ham for 32 years; children Nathan, 28; Renee Hodge, 27; Danielle, 22; Jeremy, 20; and Kristel, 17. great his's got 5 kids!... birth control MF) On making a first impression: "People can think I'm standoffish or I don't smile or I'm very serious. Once they get to know me, it's very different." On the possibility of inviting public schools to visit the Creation Museum: "We'll try. Maybe we'll invite some of the superintendents, and say, 'We just want to show you what's here. And you guys decide if there's any way you can use it.' It's possible (administrators) might tell their students, 'Don't believe what they tell you, but let's go see the dinosaurs.' And we don't mind that." The 95,000-square-foot complex of Answers in Genesis is being built on 50 acres in Boone County. The Creation Museum covers 50,000 square feet. Early man reclining near a dinosaur – will be on display at the Creation Museum. PETERSBURG - Ken Ham wants to save your soul. He's so bent on that mission that he has spent 11 years in Northern Kentucky creating a museum to answer one of the most debated questions of our time: When and how did life begin? Soon, visitors to Ham's still-unfinished Creation Museum will experience his view: that God created the world in six, 24-hour days on a planet just 6,000 years old. This literal interpretation of the Bible runs counter to accepted scientific theory, which says Earth and its life forms evolved over billions of years. Undaunted by considerable opponents, Ham's Answers in Genesis ministry is building a $25 million monument to creationism. The largest museum of its kind in the world, it hopes to draw 600,000 people from the Midwest and beyond in its first year. "When that museum is finished, it's going to be Cincinnati's No. 1 tourist attraction," says the Rev. Jerry Falwell, nationally known Baptist evangelist and chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va. "It's going to be a mini-Disney World." Ham sees the museum as a way of reaching more people - along with the Answers in Genesis Web site, which claims to get 10 million page views per month, and his "Answers ... with Ken Ham" radio show, carried by more than 725 stations worldwide. That's in addition to his talks around the country, the sales of books and DVD's, newsletters e-mailed to 120,000 people and Creation magazine, which has 25,000 U.S. subscribers. "People will get saved here," Ham says of the museum. "It's going to fire people up. If nothing else, it's going to get them to question their own position of what they believe." Primed to fight He walks briskly through the privately funded museum, pausing at a life-size model of a 40-foot-long, 14-foot-tall Tyrannosaurus rex. Ham, 53, appears far less ferocious - there's a resemblance to Abraham Lincoln - but he is primed to fight, too. "It's a foundational battle," he says, his Australian accent unmistakeable. "You've got to get people believing the right history - and believing that you can trust the Bible." Ham's views of history and science are based on a literal reading of Genesis, the first book of the Old Testament. Among other things, he believes that: Earth is about 6,000 years old, a figure arrived at by tracing the biblical genealogies, and not 4.5 billion years, as mainstream scientists say. The Grand Canyon was formed not by erosion over millions of years, but by floodwaters in a matter of days or weeks. Dinosaurs and man once co-existed, and dozens of the creatures - including T-rex - were passengers on the ark built by Noah, who was a real man, not a myth. Although the Creation Museum's full opening is still two years away, already a buzz is building. Construction tours are being conducted daily,and even more visitors are expected after a café and bookstore open later this year. Reporters from the British Broadcasting Corp. visited last week, and newspapers worldwide are flocking here to take a look, turning Petersburg into a ground zero of sorts for a culture war. "We're putting the evolutionists and secular humanists on notice," says Ham, who has lived in America for 18 years. "We're coming to take back what rightfully belongs to God's word - what rightfully belongs to the Christian faith." And yes, he says, that includes dinosaurs, the icons of evolution. Life-size models of dozens of the creatures will be on display in the museum. Ham argues that evolution - the scientific theory that says life on the planet evolved from a common ancestor over millions of years - conflicts with the biblical version of a six-day creation. That, he says, has undermined the Bible's authority, leading to a "relative morality" based on man, not God, and resulting in moral decay that ranges from racism and pornography to school violence and gay marriage. 'A giant step backward' Ham knows he has formidable opponents. Respected groups such as the National Science Board, the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Science Teachers Association strongly support the theory of evolution. John Marburger, the Bush administration's science adviser, has said, "Evolution is a cornerstone of modern biology." Many mainstream scientists worry that creationist theology masquerading as science will have an adverse effect on the public's science literacy. "It's a giant step backward in science education," says Carolyn Chambers, chair of the biology department at Xavier University, which is operated by the Jesuit order of the Catholic church. Glenn Storrs, curator of vertebrate paleontology for the Cincinnati Museum Center, leads dinosaur excavations in Montana each summer. "Dinosaur-man co-existence is a non-issue,'' he says. "And so, I believe, is the age of the Earth. It's very clear the Earth is much older than 6,000 years." The debate reaches past science. "I would hope the mainstream Christian community speaks up about this and says, 'This is not the only Christian view,' " says Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, Calif. A spokesman for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Cincinnati said Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk would not comment on the Creation Museum. A spokesman for Bishop Roger J. Foys of the Diocese of Covington referred questions to the Rev. Ronald Ketteler, chair of the theology department at Thomas More College. Ketteler would not comment on the Creation Museum, either. But he says the Catholic doctrine of creation - which declares God as creator - is compatible with the theory of evolution. The Rev. Mendle Adams, pastor of St. Peter's United Church of Christ in Pleasant Ridge, has never hesitated to speak out against Ham's views on science, theology and morality. In the mid-1990s, while pastor of a Northern Kentucky church, Adams opposed Ham's plans for the museum. "He takes extraordinary liberties with Scripture and theology to prove his point," Adams says. "The bottom line is, he is anti-gay, and he uses that card all the time." Ham says homosexual behavior is a sin. But he adds that he's careful to condemn the behavior, not the person. Ministry has $14 million budget In waging a culture war, Ham has a large number of potential foot soldiers. Gallup polls since 1982 have consistently shown that about 45 percent of the U.S. population believes that God created humans in their present form sometime within the past 10,000 years. Non-denominational and Baptist churches are the best prospects for developing relationships with the Creation Museum, according to a study commissioned by Answers in Genesis. One well-known Baptist whom Ham can count on is Falwell. In July, Ham will speak at the 2005 Creation Mega Conference hosted by Falwell and his Liberty University. "I consider Ken Ham the most informed creationist in America," Falwell says. Even detractors concede that Ham has appeal. Ian Plimer, chair of geology at the University of Melbourne, became aware of Ham in the late 1980s, when Ham's creationist ministry in Australia was just a few years old. "He is promoting the religion and science of 350 years ago," says Plimer, but he adds: "He's a far better communicator than most mainstream scientists." Still, even Ham admits he doesn't always make a good first impression. He's a shy man who wears a scraggly, graying beard, without a mustache, and doesn't smile much, although he has reason to: Donations for museum construction are rolling in at a rate of $300,000 to $400,000 a year. What's more, the ministry he began in Northern Kentucky 11 years ago with colleagues Mark Looy and Mike Zovath now has 110 employees and a budget of $14 million. "The Lord gave me a fire in my bones," Ham says. "It's almost as if ... I have no option. The Lord has put this burden in my heart: 'You've got to get this information out.' " Local fossils 450 million years old Get Ham onto the topic of biblical authority, and his passion is obvious. "He'd be speaking 20 hours a day if his body would let him," says Zovath, vice president of museum operations. Ham's wife of 32 years agrees. "He finds it difficult talking about things apart from the ministry," Mally Ham says. "He doesn't shut off." Ham travels to about 30 cities a year to speak at churches, conferences and seminars. A couple of times a year, he addresses his home church, Calvary Baptist in Covington, and draws crowds of 1,400 or more. "He's one of the most popular speakers we have," says the Rev. Dave Ellington, the worship pastor. "He reminds us to go back to what we really believe in the word of God." Ham's own faith took root early. He grew up in a Christian home in Australia, the oldest of six children. His late father, a teacher and principal, taught him that the entire Gospel message depends on Genesis being true. Whenever a challenge to Scripture arose, the elder Ham stridently defended his faith, which had a great effect on young Ken. Ham's high school teachers introduced him to the theory of evolution. Concerned that it conflicted with the Bible's creation story, he went to his father. The elder Ham didn't have the answers, but encouraged his son to look for them. Ham eventually found what he was seeking in the writings of creationist authors. Along the way, he earned a college degree in biology and environmental science, taught high school for five years, and spoke often at churches. He and Mally, who have five children, built a room on the front of their house in Australia and started a bookstore, Creation Science Supply. "We only had $200 in the bank and had ordered $20,000 worth of books. We didn't get a salary for years," Ham says. But his creationist ministry grew, and in 1979 he decided to make it a full-time endeavor. Many of the books the Hams sold came from the San Diego-based Institute for Creation Research, which runs a small Museum of Creation and Earth History. The family moved to America in 1987, and Ham spent seven years at the institute, until he was pulled by the allure of building a ministry and museum in a more centrally located U.S. city. Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky, home to an international airport and within a day's drive of two-thirds of the U.S. population, fit the bill. Today, Ham eagerly awaits the museum's opening, hoping to share his passion with more believers. But will people come away believing the Earth is 6,000 years old? Arnold Miller, a University of Cincinnati professor of geology, is an expert on the 450-million-year-old fossils commonly found around Cincinnati. A proponent of free speech, he says he'd never try to block the Creation Museum. "What I would like, however, is for it to be understood that it is something based on belief, and not on science," Miller says. He muses that he could quit his job, become an expert debater, and take on Ham and other creationists. "And if the general public were voting, I'd still lose," he says. "I sometimes feel that it's almost unwinnable. There's a strong fundamentalist faith that many people have. I wouldn't want to fight it." Ham, meanwhile, will fight. How will he know if he's won? "It doesn't matter," he says. "As long as you do what's right - and what God's called you to do." Sorry, But I'm REALLY UPSET that this sort of thing is happening naturally it's in the backwoods kentucky "bible belt" of this damn country where such a place (I assume) seems natural.... I can guarantee that this would have never gotten off the ground in my city. sorry for the anger.... /rant off [ 24. May 2005, 01:45: Message edited by: Flip ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2b Posted May 24, 2005 As an Australian i think i speak for most of us , Flip we are truely sorry. This must be some sort of kama thing , with G W Bush as a pay back ? quote: He's gotten some media attention and is about ready to open "His disneyland for the bible" Arrgghhh...He ripped this idea from Ned Flanders but seriously Flip , this should be a wake up call to all that don't live in the Southern US this style of thought is comming to a town near you , they're kina like the new Cylons from Battle Star Gallactica , they look human , they're amongst us right now quote: "We're putting the evolutionists and secular humanists on notice," says Ham, who has lived in America for 18 years. "We're coming to take back what rightfully belongs to God's word - what rightfully belongs to the Christian faith." WTF ? quote: In waging a culture war, Ham has a large number of potential foot soldiers. Sounds like a call to arms to me [ 24. May 2005, 01:57: Message edited by: 2b ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Endrogen Posted May 24, 2005 eh ehehe heheahaha HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
occidentalis Posted May 24, 2005 EEuuughh He has an environmental science degree I have an environmental science degree I have to go shower now... :mad: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip Posted May 24, 2005 2b, Thanks and "I know..." Sorry, I'm not blaming anyone or any nation, certainly There are reasons why this individual has moved here and been able to plant these roots of "wtf?" Creach, yeah, and this SOB has too many damn kids too! GW Bush was elected (illegally?) by christain right wing for the first term (He ran publicaly as a moderate) and certainly stole the second election illegally. It's common knowledge among the thoughtful that we're in a corrupt cultural war right now within the United States and I'm sorry to say that they've managed to get the upper hand in many respects. The problem is that they've gained control over the reigns of the "free" media (Thanks Rupert M.), developed a cohesive base of support, are ORGANIZED and are engaged in a corporate globalization using the english speaking western governments as their mercenaries. There is no serious (par level) opposition to this movement as of yet but there are people who are aware and there will be a time of backlash.... and it fermenting. I just hope that the damage can be controled before it gets much, much worse.... and before the federal ID program takes full effect. Otherwise I fear that this nation may be the new coroprate version of the 3rd Reich. -I'm not kidding about this.- Oh, btw, today I had the Jehovah's Whitnesses knocked on my door again... What I noticed in our conversation is that they view the world highly dualistically, In stict terms of black and white. Incapable of abstract conceptualization. Not to mention, confined by their biblical dogma such Blind and Binding conditioning is very, VERY dangerious. [ 24. May 2005, 03:41: Message edited by: Flip ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2b Posted May 24, 2005 quote: The problem is that they've gained control over the reigns of the media (Thanks Rupert M.), Errrr....Sorry for that one as well quote: but there are people who are aware and there will be a time of backlash.... and it fermenting. I thought i smelt a whiff of back lash around the time that woman that had her life support turned off (Terry something ?) , seemed the fundamentalist right thought they could control that one , even though the law had spoken. quote: developed a cohesive base of support, are ORGANIZED That's the secret , in Australia it is compulsory to vote and you get fined if you don't. Seems if people are allowed to choose if they want to vote or not that the out come may not be a true representation of the populations thoughts. They Christian right is very organised and very political , they train their people from a very young age.They start at the local council level and progress up the food chain until they end up on top making policies and handing down important decissions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tryptameanie Posted May 24, 2005 Yep the bastards are getting organized alright(Gazooks Doctor! Do you think they could be developing some sort of primitive intelligence?). There's been a few docos about the way they engineered their rise to power in the US of late-and they've been terrifying. And of course their equivalents in Australia will have been watching and learning... anyone for a Family First/ Liberal coalition government? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Endrogen Posted May 25, 2005 http://www.familyfirst.org.au/hot_topics/greens.php http://www.nsw.greens.org.au/policies/policies.php Example family first The greens policy want to legalise ecstasy, speed and heroin Greens The Greens NSW support a trial of controlled availability of heroin and other drugs of addiction from specifically licensed clinics to registered addicts. [ 25. May 2005, 02:13: Message edited by: Endrogen ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simon_marklar Posted May 25, 2005 well, at least with the creationists, you can say "behold i give you all the herbs that bear seed, and they are good" and they will say, "yeah, thats from the first page of genesis" and you say, "yeah, that means that the herb marijuana, which bears seed, comes from god and is good. if you want to believe the bible and the story of genesis, then you must legalise marijuana. it is gods word, and you cannot selectivly believe it." then see what they say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2b Posted May 25, 2005 Simon , that's fantastic :D can't wait to try the argument out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simon_marklar Posted May 25, 2005 hehe there's heaps of drug references in the bible. i like the recipie for the holy annointing oil. 1. blah blah some herbs and stuff 2. 9 pounds of the flowering tops of the plant called 'kaneh bosom' ('om' on the end of a hebrew word is plural, so it becomes 'kaneh bos' which in greek is 'cannabis'). take that john ashcroft and your holy crisco oil! there's heaps of mushroom references too. but you know, that interpretation of the bible is completely invalid and illegal, unlike other interpretations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 25, 2005 I hate that retarded ancient cananbis use stuff, because people rag on christians so hard for having different interpretations, but then they don't look at the different interpretation of the cannabis stuff. quote: well... I'd tend to agree, except for a few things: The hebrew/caananite word is Kineh Bosem, which actually can literally mean "frangrant cane." But that's not all it means. The word for "fragrant" actually implies a spice or aromatic herb, being the only word in the bible called this most general term... and the word KiNeH means alot of things. Any kind of reed is a kineh. a windpipe is a kineh. a flute is called a kineh. the cups of a candelabra, and any bottle of oil are called KaNKaNim. a birds nest is called a Kain, and all aquisition is done through KiNyaNim. Jealousy, as in Jealous God(which I would translate more as "attached" personally), is KiNaA As Kineh is anything that KoNNects one to another. a connecting spice might be a better translation maybe. Kind of puts the stupid cannabis myth to rest. However, if you want to piss christians off, you can tell them a lot of bibles are made of hemp paper, which is true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 25, 2005 Also great for pissing christians off without making shit up is an old logic class fallacy: Q: Can God do anything? A: Of course! Q: Can God create a stone? A: Of course! Q: Can God lift the stone? A: Of course! Q: Can god create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it? A: Of cou--...I hate you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hagakure Posted May 25, 2005 you: so this world was created by god? them: yes you: so everything has to be created? them: yes you: then who created god? them: well that sucks actual transcript. simple and old argument but effective when you lead them into it fuck this new wave of hardcore christians is really getting to me. the way to stop it would be making every bit of revenue raised by christian enteprises feed and clothe the poor. that will either stop these bullshit programs or be taking money from the stupid and doing some good. i wouldnt be suprised if a lot of these wankers dont even believe in god - their faith is in those dolla dolla bills y'all. lets face it if people beleive in christianity they are already pretty gullible - only takes a little bit of pushing to milk em. i do have respect for christians who help poor etc but these types of people would help people whatever religion they were in. [ 25. May 2005, 11:40: Message edited by: Hagakure ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darklight Posted May 25, 2005 quote: Originally posted by Hagakure: fuck this new wave of hardcore christians is really getting to me. [/QB] Me too. I mean, if religion makes you a better person, more compassionate, tolerant, intelligent and understanding I don't have a beef with it. In fact, if anything makes you ditto etc. But the whole intolerant right wing hairy scary upsurge of the last twelve months has kinda stunned me. I don't see it as any kind of armageddon end of the world last ditch saving of souls, I think it's just another dangerous social fad whose idea is having its rather unfortunate and unpleasant time as part of the cycle. Where do these people come from, the mob? They're us, as anyone else is obviously. Is mob psychology so close to clinical epidemiology as I fear? Is there always a segment of the population who will automatically follow once an idea reaches critical mass? Are there so many so easily swayed as to be able to embrace and even justify embracing several diametrically opposed ideologies within a decade or less of each other? Or is the publicity machine of mass opinion so sophisticated as to segue manipulated beliefs without so much as a hiccup? Or is it that a different segment of the general populace is motivated to become vocal at any one time. I'd prefer the latter explanation... the former I suspect is the more accurate but it does rather alarm me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted May 26, 2005 Apoth--not sure i understand why you think that an 'aromatic cane' doesn't refer to cannabis. most sites give virtually the same meanings for kineh bosem as you & then use etymology to relate it to the greek & scythian words for cannabis--that seems fair. quote: the word kaneh bosm is also rendered in the traditional Hebrew as kannabos or kannabus and that the root "kan" in this construction means "reed" or "hemp", while "bosm" means "aromatic". He states that in the earliest Greek translations of the old testament "kan" was rendered as "reed", leading to such erroneous English translations as "sweet calamus" (Exodus 30:23), sweet cane (Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 6:20) and "calamus" (Ezekiel 27:19; Song of Songs 4:14). Benet argues from the linguistic evidence that cannabis was known in Old Testament times at least for its aromatic properties and that the word for it passed from the Semitic language to the Scythians, i.e. the Ashkenaz of the Old Testament. but surely the most telling evidence for semetic use ov canabis was their use ov incense quote: It was said that Moses, at the direction of Almighty God, first brought in the use of incense in public worship, and that the other nations of antiquity copied the practice from him. It was however a practice that began with Adam. The "Book of Jubilees", an Apocryphal book, (the Apocrypha was considered canonical by the early church and is to this day by the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church) states that "on the day when Adam went forth from the Garden of Eden, he offered as a sweet savour an offering of frankincense, galbanum, and stacte, and spices, in the morning with the rising of the sun, from the day when he covered his shame." And of Enoch we read that "he burnt the incense of the sanctuary, even sweet spices, acceptable before the Lord, on the Mount." Incense was assigned miraculous powers by the Israelites. It was burned in golden bowls or cauldrons placed on or beside the altar. It was also burned in hand-held censers. In the Blessing of Moses, a poem belonging to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and written about 760 B.C., the sacrificial smoke is offered to the God of Israel. Let them teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law; Let them offer sacrificial smoke to thy nostrils, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thy altar. Throughout the Bible the ancient patriarchs were brought into communion with God through smoking incense and at Mt. Sinai God talked to Moses out of a bush that burned with fire (Exodus 3:1- 12). After Moses brought the Israelite people out of Egypt he returned to Mt. Sinai at which time God made a covenant with Moses in which the Ten Commandments were revealed. Exodus 19:8 describes the conditions at the time of this covenant. Exodus 19:8 "And Mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. The Mysterious smoke mentioned in the covenant on Mt. Sinai is also referred to as a cloud. Exodus 24:15 "And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount. 16 And the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the clouds and the smoke are related to the burning of incense. Exodus 40:26 describes Moses burning incense, a cloud covering the tent of the congregation and the glory of the Lord filling the tabernacle. Leviticus 16:2-13 describes how God appeared in a cloud and refers to it as the clouds of incense. Numbers 16:17-19 describes how every man of the congregation had a censer full of burning incense and that the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation. Isaiah 6:4 describes how Ezekial saw God in a smoke-filled inner court. Numbers 11:25 describes how God was revealed to moses and the seventy elders in a cloud; that the spirit rested upon them and that they prophesied and ceased not. The Book of Grass by Andrew and Vinkenoog includes a section on Ancient Scythia and Iran by Mircea Eliade, one of the foremost experts on the history of religions. On pages 11 and 12 is the following: "On one document appears to indicate the existence of a Getic shamanism: It is Straho's account of the Myssian KAPNOBATAI, a name that has been translated, by analogy with Aristophanes' AEROBATES, as 'those who walk in clouds'; but it should be translated as 'those who walk in smoke'! Presumably the smoke is hemp smoke, a rudimentary means of ecstasy known to both the Tracians and the Scythians..." This passage should be carefully noted. Biblical passages make it abundantly clear that the ancient Isrealites also walked in clouds and in smoke. In fact it was in the clouds of smoke that God was revealed to the ancient Isrealites. The words "smoke" and "smoking" appear fifty times in the King James Version of the Bible and two separate times the Bible says of the Lord, "There went up a smoke out of his nostrils." II Samuel 22:9, Psalms 18:8. There are numerous other places in the Bible that mention the burning of incense, the mysterious cloud, and smoke. This common thread is found throughout the Bible, including the New Testament. St. Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the Earth morn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." Revelations 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." Revelations 8:3 "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the Angel's hand." Revelations 15:8 "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power." THE SYMBOLISM OF FIRE IN THE ANCIENT WORLD The word "fire" is mentioned several hundred times in the King James version of the Bible. The sacrifice of the Lord is made by fire (Exodus 29:18, 25; Leviticus 2:10-11; Leviticus 6:13; Numbers 28:6; Deuteronomy 4:33; Joshua 13:14; I Samuel 2:28; II Chronicles 2:4; Isaiah 24:15; Matthew 3:11; Luke 1:9; Revelations 8:4-5) Abraham, the father of the Israelite nation, came from Ur which was a city of Ancient Sumer in South Babylonia. For the Babylonians, fire was essential to sacrifice and all oblations were conveyed to the gods by the fire god Girru-Nusku, whose presence as an intermediary between the gods and man was indispensable. Girru-Nusku, as the messenger of the gods, bore the essence of the offerings upward to them in the smoke of sacrificial fire. At Babylon: "The glorious gods smell the incense, noble food of heaven; pure wine which no hand has touched do they enjoy." (L. Jeremias, in Encyclopedia Biblica, i.v. 4119, quoting Rawlinson, Cuneif. Inscrip. IV, 19 (59).) ethyopian coptic church [ 26. May 2005, 01:31: Message edited by: nabraxas ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simon_marklar Posted May 26, 2005 from here (where apoth got his quote from) quote: A paper written by a little known Polish etymologist Sara Benetowa /(Sula Benet)of the Institute of Anthropological Sciences in Warsaw in 1936, Tracing One Word Through Different Languages, was reprinted in 1967 as the Book of Grass. Sara Benetowa was quoted in the Book of Grass as saying. The astonishing resemblance between the Semitic 'kanbos' and the Scythian 'cannabis' leads me to suppose that the Scythian word was of Semitic origin. These etymological discussions run parallel to arguments drawn from history. The Iranian Scythians were probably related to the Medes, who were neighbors of the Semites and could easily have assimilated the word for hemp. The Semites could also have spread the word during their migrations through Asia Minor. "Taking into account the matriarchal element of Semitic culture, one is led to believe that Asia Minor was the original point of expansion for both the society based on the matriarchal circle and the mass use of hashish." It is worth noting that Sara Benetowa�s paper was written before the prohibition against Cannabis in 1937. In the late 1970's a conference was held on the east coast of the USA. Sara Benetowa was now Sula Benet working in the USA at the University of Columbia. His claim that Jesus Christ used cannabis/ marijuana was the focus of this conference. Tempers raged on both sides of the discussions. At the end of the conference It was decided to ask the Hebrew University of Jerusalem�s etymologist�s if Sula Benet�s theory was correct. It was decided to use the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Because Sula Benet was reading the Torah. The Torah is a collection of five books of the Hebrew bible. While reading the bible he found references to kaneh bos in supply list for building materials . Sula Benet tried cross referencing kaneh bos only it isn�t in any of the other bibles. Sula Benet points back to the third century when the Hebrew bible the Torah (which is unchanged to present day)was translated by the Greeks. This translation was done by seventy two scholars and named the Septuagint in their honor. They mistranslated Kaneh bos/cannabis to fragrant cane. Later Sir Francis Bacon changed it again to calamus in his translation of the Septuagint in his making of the King James Version of the bible in 1611. The Hebrew University of Jerusalem's reply confirmed Sula Benets claim that Kaneh bos was cannabis. Therefore Jesus Christ did use and supply marijuana products to the masses. This is a point of historical fact.Wayne Jack MacIver i'd tend to believe The Hebrew University of Jerusalem's thoughts on a translation of a hebrew word. but, this is one take on one sentance in the bible, and its just as valid as many others. but anyway, back to giving it to the right wingers [ 26. May 2005, 02:28: Message edited by: simon_marklar ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apothecary Posted May 26, 2005 It could mean fragrant cane. But it could mean "connecting spice" ...i.e. something you use to meld all the other ingredients together. In fact, the essay kind of supports this. Why would there be holy incense in a list of building materials? It could mean fragrant flute or fragrant oil, or a whole bunch of things. Like I said, different interpretations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simon_marklar Posted May 26, 2005 apothecary:In fact, the essay kind of supports this. Why would there be holy incense in a list of building materials? i dont think they were reffering to incence being used for building, but rather, using the hemp/cannabis plant to make building materials from. http://eartheasy.com/article_hemp_homes.htmbut my point of mentioning this is that no one has a perfect interpretation of the bible. If they want to spout on about how genesis is true and the world was created in 6 days then they must agree that 'all herbs that bear seed are good', because it says so in the book that they are quoting from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip Posted May 27, 2005 I think that all of this debate over the bible is pointless. There have been far better minds than ours that have wasted their entire lives going over all these stories. and if they sniffed serious evidence it would have been weeded out long ago. in order to not distract from their authority as gods voice. One basic fallacy that I see is that people try to use these stories as a foundation to build their life upon. and in the process close themselves off to what else there is out there. What we should be concerned with is not what any redefined and reinterpreted writings of some one long dead cave dwelling jew was but instead, what is of worth and value in our lives, Is the here and now. and IF MJ, or Mushrooms are of value as tools for the understanding of the mind and perhaps even what some people have termed Soul, Enlightnment, "God" or "Simple Understanding". Then so be it. it's not really going to make a difference if the Jews or Christians did or didn't (they did) It's about bettering ourselves and opposing their brand of self delusion. We all know it's not about the truth but about a "dogma" that provides "lost people" a sense of belonging, grand purpose, promise of reward, punishment of enemies and feeling good about ones self after being all burdened with imposed guilt. never mind the facts or reality... this creationists dream is all about trying to make the square peg fit into the round hole. and they're serious about it too.... training lawyers to battle within the courts. Hope it doesn't' happen there as well.... another link [ 26. May 2005, 20:02: Message edited by: Flip ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted May 27, 2005 just to go back to Simon's point about all created things being "good", Jesus said that nothing that entered the body was sinful, so using MJ etc. is no problem anyway. He went on to say it was cruel words that came from the heart that caused sin...or something Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBumpy Posted May 27, 2005 nabraxas: Jesus said that nothing that entered the body was sinful, So whats the big fuckin deal with homosexuality and oral sex? -bumpy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted May 27, 2005 dunno the whole fukking old testament is so warped it doesnt make any sense why decide to keep the homosexuality thing but reject all the other laws/punishmnets/codes why can christians eat shrimp cocktails and bacon strips, or any non kosher food, or even not get circumcised - but still homosexuality is somehow a mortal sin surely its all equal? I say let them covet their neighbours ass if they wish whatever... they should burn all but 4 chapters of that book - ie the ones that actually have JC in it. Of all opf them he seems to be the only one with any heart ie talking about compassion and love [ 27. May 2005, 12:08: Message edited by: Rev ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
