pituri? (D. hopwoodii) - an imaginary reality check

[JumpedAngel]

some folks may recieve imaginary bags of pituri today, others may need to wait until the new year, if there is an outbreak of mould in the bag then this is because it hasn't fully dried prior to being sent out, in this case place the contents into a paper bag and place the paper bag in a warm dry window sill for a couple of days, otherwise u might try drying the stuff in the oven or the microwave.

ok, i have to own up, this batch is not as strong as the last, not too bad though, but still lacking in a little bite. if anything, i think the problem is that the drupes were all removed prior to fermentation and set aside for trading and/or planted in the ground and/or set aside for disection/experimentation etc., it would appear then that the flesh of the drupe carries in it a fair proportion of the active constituents of the plant and maybe some flavouring as well. that being said, anyone who hasn't tried pituri before would not necessarily be disappointed, it is still very obviously 'there', it is still very much more active than many of these new age ethno plants of questionable and/or marginal effect that some of u here may be playing with and it will at least give a fair indication of where this stuff will be heading in future.

i guess it should be said that much of the effect of any plant will depend largely on the metabolism of the individual concerned, therefore it is best that u first do an allergy test prior to commencing any sort of trial or experiment and ensure that there is no likelyhood for there to be a toxic type reaction on u.

to do a basic allergy test, rub a bit of your own siliva on the inside of your forearm and while it is still damp rub a little of the plant substance on that damp patch, make a note of the time and check for any inflamantion within an hour or so, next, lick some of the plant substance and spread the flavour of it inside the mouth around the inside of the lips, again wait for a reasonable period of time to ensure that no adverse reactions occur, be sure not to consume any food/drink during this 'waiting period'. although very basic the above tests will give a good indication as to whether the individual is likely to suffer an adverse reaction to that particular plant substance, please note these tests are not the be all and end all and if doubt exists then it is always best to abstain. a more comprehensive series of tests is available on-line generally for bio-assaying of new food-stuffs but is as effective for bio-assaying plant substances, check out ->

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/plants-1.php

if this link does not work go to the http://www.wilderness-survival.net and look up the link to 'edibility of plants', the site itself is typically gung-ho in the true american style and should provide much amusement and education, please note that i am in no way affiliated with the actual site itself and that this is in no way any kind of 'spam'.

to trial the pituri, begin with a small quid, a quid is that volume of plant matter held in the mouth at the one time, a small quid is about the diameter of a pencil and about an inch long (25mm), the occasional pinch of baking soda may be added to aid in the release of alkaloids, the native habit allowed for the removal of the quid from the mouth at any time, and the recommencement of chewing when desireous of another hit, the quid is never swallowed, best personal effects for me start up to 1 hour after commencement of chewing, fresh herb is added to the quid when desired, i must state here that i know myself to be different or some type of exception therefore i will not dwell on my personal experiences with the herb.

larger quantities of herb may be used on an 'its up to u' basis, as i have no desire to tread that path at the present, past experiments with a stronger herb to make a tincture have yielded some interesting party-time/doof type memories, however i do not encourage bingeing with substances that are as little known and understood as this one is, nor do i recommend mixing with other substances unless with the utmost of care and under observation of a sober minder. a larger quid may be 4 times the size quoted above and is known to be much more effectatious.

leaving a quantity of ground-up herb to soak in a glass of water overnight in the refridgerator may be an alternative to chewing, refridgeration would be desirable to keep down the possibility of mould growth (filter before use thru your mamma's panties), the ground-up herb soaked in gin or some other spirit might also yield a trialable product however more difficult to consume and lower in effect, but let me say, that outside of myself and a few close personal friends, i know of no-one who has trialed and/or experimented with this plant substance, and know of no creadible reference pertaining to the traditional usage of the herb and would therefore urge care and caution at every turn as if it were a brand new discovery with just as much potential to destroy as to delight.

that said, i hope those people refered to above will share their imaginary experiences here or at least rate the product in comparable terms over the coming weeks, this type of info is required to rebuild a tradition around the plant and u are the lucky people who have been selected to do this, i know that some folks are shy but it realy doesnt take much trouble to relate the experiences of an imaginary acquaintance or to create another persona, honesty is the best policy in such instances and working together in this way we may be able to rediscover a useful friend. :D

[2b]

Sounds great can't wait for the experiences to be posted. While were on nicotine , years ago i spent a winter pruning apples with an old bloke. He he was the one who had grubbed the bush out cleared the land up and planted the trees we were working on .He was teling me one day that before the advent of DDT , the most effective insectacide that they used was nicotine . They would soak the tobacco leaves in water , then spray the water onto the trees.He said it worked well , but not as well as DDT ! The stuff is obviously toxic , wonder if you could call it an 'organic' insectacide ?

[hebrew]

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if there is an outbreak of mould in the bag then this is because it hasn't fully dried prior to being sent out, in this case place the contents into a paper bag and place the paper bag in a warm dry window sill for a couple of days, otherwise u might try drying the stuff in the oven or the microwave.

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would the sun or heat you mention kill the mold? could this mold have adverse effects?

[JumpedAngel]

there is a strong relationship between that mould and that plant, i look at it the same as that blue mould with certain cheeses.

[Torsten]

this post makes me shudder.

Safety first! Consuming a tincture of nicotine containing material is never safe. Not even for a highly experienced person. The margin between an effective dose and a deadly dose is only about 300%. As pituri can easily vary by that percentage there is simply no way to safely dose a tincture unless it was standardised (and even then it will only be predictable for one individual).

Mould? I am aware of the traditional fermentation process, but it does not allow for any fluffy mould. If you have such mould on your material then this is most likely NOT a safe material to consume. Moulds growing on herbs tend to be of the toxic kind. If this is how to consume your pituri then maybe the effect you are getting is from the mould toxins rather than from the pituri alkaloids?

You are correct that not many people are experimenting with 'kudna', which is Duboisia hopwoodii harvested outside the pituringa area and which translates to 'rotten' or 'no good'. However there are dozens of people who are well versed with the real pituri.

I fail to see how comsuming the wrong plant which accoding to your own statement has provided an inferior preparation will help to establish a cultural tradition. That's like people smoking villca to understand yopo. Or eating yohimbe to understand ibogaine.

I mean, I fully agree that the kudna should be explored if for no purpose other than to teach us the difference between kudna and pituri. Pituri has a long history and we already know a fair bit about it and its use. So why start at the very beginning again other than for comparative purposes?

I think it is a good idea to explore all chemotypes of Duboisia hopwoodii, but lets not confuse the research more than it already is by throwing kudna experiences in with pituri experiences.

if you want to turn this into a meaningful comparative study you could supply me with the addresses of the recipients (with their permission only) and I will send them out a small amount of pituri as well so they can report back on the differences and similarities etc. For all we know there may be no differences in low dose effects between the materials. As I mentioned before I believe the real difference lies in the *VERY* high dose ritual consumption. We could verify that at this point.

[hebrew]

so what is the biological differences between pituri and kudna, are they the same plant? why would the hopwoodii plants found the in the pituringa area difer from the plants outside this area? what influneces the alkaloid make up between the two different plants?

am i right in thinking that JA your material comes from outside this area torsten mentions?

my last question for the moment....are there any good books that explore pituri use amoungst indigenous australians that i may be able to read?

[Happy Cadaver]

I thought from reading 'This Precious Foliage' that the preparation of 'pituri' was done by the old fellas who kept it a tight secret. And that they prepared a fire near the plants and when it was at the right stage (temperature, etc.), then they would harvest the 'pituri' and cover it with ashes, sand and it acted like an oven dryer. This was because the nicotine breaks down (?) after harvest and a quick dry keeps the nicotine levels at their highest.

I would have thought a fermentation would break down the actives into less actives, or is it into more actives? Is there a reference for the fermentation process you two speak of so i can have a look? Or is it in the same one i mentioned

Maybe the preference for the mulligan stuff was only due to the preparation methods? Though there is likely the climatic difference, like there is with many herbs grown over the globe; in certain areas they simply don't produce high amounts of the good chems and even different ones.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by darcy:

Is there a reference for the fermentation process you two speak of so i can have a look?

The fermentation I am aware of is a short 'sweating' of the plants before drying. This may have been an intentional part of the process or may simply be a big harvest sitting in a pile. I have no further knowledge of this process, but took JA's word for it that there is a more involved method.

Personally I am only aware of two preparation methods. One is to prepare it as you desribe, the other is to simply do the same process in baking hot sand that was only heated by the sun.

Maybe the preference for the mulligan stuff was only due to the preparation methods?

This appears to go well beyond latitude. There are plants on the same latitude as pituringa which do not have the alkaloid profile of pituri grown in pituringa. Henry's thesis covers this well and he has been quite generous with providing this info at EB2 & EB3.

There is no recorded pituri utilisation outside of the mulligan area, so there are no preparation methods to compare.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by hebrew:

so what is the biological differences between pituri and kudna, are they the same plant? why would the hopwoodii plants found the in the pituringa area difer from the plants outside this area? what influneces the alkaloid make up between the two different plants?

It is the same species of plant. However the alkaoid profile of the pituringa area is quite distinctly high nicotine and lacking the toxic nornicotine. In most other areas the dominant alkaloid is nornicotine and this provides the material called kudna. There is also a chemotype in WA that produces tropanes. There are long discussion on this topic in these forums. UTSE!

Bottom line is that JA doesn't accept the chemotype concept even though there is plenty of (mostly unpublished) scientific evidence for it.

One of the purposes of removing some pituringa plants and growing them in cultivation is to see if they will change to the nornicotine type if planted amongst the kudna population. In that case the concept of chemotypes would be replaced by variation due to environmental conditions.

There are many reasons why this is unlikely to be the case.

my last question for the moment....are there any good books that explore pituri use amoungst indigenous australians that i may be able to read?

Not really. Most of the material is very out of date and inaccurate. For a historical perspective the book darcy mentions is a good choice and is available via adrian at guruna.com nursery.

For really good, thorough and current information you will need to wait for Henry Cox to release his thesis (or come to EB5 ).

[hebrew]

 

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UTSE!

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woops i did after posting.....lol

 

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or come to EB5

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i would love to maybe i should start to save now

i will be the first to post a report of sorts.....

the quid method has not been tried, but two cigarettes were smoked

The smoke is not harsh very easy to smoke, taste is kind of familiar but I cant put my finger on the taste or smell. Smoked easily and was quite pleasant. 5 minutes after smoking the herb a relaxed feeling is felt as is also a stimulant kind of feeling both awake and sleepy.I could be sleepy as I had little sleep the night before. There is definitely an altered state however it is slight. A larger dose is needed next time.

the second smoke was larger but still a one paper smoke, it was much the same as the first one. there seemed to be a larger tar content as well as being a little more harsh but still bearable, the lips were almost numbed from the tar, more stimulation was felt and there was slight sweating, but it was hot.

both experiences lasted about 30 minutes. the second smoke reminded me of bidi's.

if i try the quid or further smokes in the coming days i will write a more detailed report

[ 30. December 2004, 20:31: Message edited by: hebrew ]

[Torsten]

pituri was traditionally never smoked.

smoking it may provide for a totally different experience as various alkaloids will be changed by pyrolysis and some alkaloids may be completely destroyed.

There are many substances in pituri....

[hebrew]

i realise it was never smoked traditionaly but this is how i decided to first experiment, i have read here many times people saying that they have smoked pituri, also traditionaly, this puturi was never used. so i guess i am not following the tradition

i plan to ingest it the traditional way later, well sort of without the acacia being added, the acacia ash will be replaced with calcium hydroxide

[ 31. December 2004, 08:04: Message edited by: hebrew ]

[JumpedAngel]

it is a bit unfair of u Torsten to bring up words like 'kudna', when u know damn well that your o/s clients at least will not be familiar with native aboriginal tradition or the mechanisms of its developement and evolution, these people are unlikely to be able to grasp the finer points of the 'secrets' behind say 'secret womens business' for example, nor the fact that these people lost their tradition when they first learnt to lie, a good parable at this point might well be the garden of eden myth, another explanation might be that they didn't lose their tradition and we didn't steal it from them, they mearly forgot it when they could no longer remember the difference between the their old truths and their new convenient lies, poetic justice dont you think?, but then again even trained proffessionals like u claim to be have been falling for that one for a long time now, the south australian Hindmarsh Island bridge debarcle mearly brought out into the open what clowns like u refuse to acknowledge.

also dude, there appears to be a few pages missing from your character assassination handbook, but u are in luck, as i can give u some personal tuition with that if u like , firstly let me say that i have no intention of encouraging people who traded for drupe with me to trial your brew on your behalf, if they wish to reveal themselves to u of their own accord then that is their own personal business and good luck to them although it would not surprise me if u had frightened many of them away from ever considering this herb again, it seems clear that u are full of doubt about it yourself, it is obvious that u dont feel comfortable enough with it to have written and distributed a report on your own product so what makes u think that i'm going to encourage these trusting souls into your care? find your own lab rats!, now comes the real test for all this selfserving pituringa area bullshit that you've been spouting eh?

cheers hebrew, tell me dude, weren't u afraid that u were going to die or something?, maybe u had better check that your testicles didnt drop off in the process, he-he, according to Torstens mister know-it-all manual both u and i as well as many of my friends and family should all be dead by now, but especially me, he-he. shows the value of building on someone elses poor quality observations then calling it science, but by all means Torsten, u go right ahead and keep building on it. as for smoking the stuff?, i know its so easy to do but try not to waste much more in smoke, i know i shouldnt talk as i smoked at least a kg of the stuff earlier this year, i would not be suggesting it if i had not trialed it myself first, but chewing it will give the most interesting results. please avoid using calcium hydroxide, i have had much first hand experience with it around solomon islands and PNG, use baking soda instead, less corrosive on the teeth.

you would have to be blind or retarded not to have noticed the mould Torsten, as the plant and the mould apear to be inseperable, your ignorance in this regard not only speaks for itself but also highlights and underscores the quality of your supposed 'knowledge', and again it is not toxic and no, i'm not dead, just dead tired of listening to this ill-informed scare-mongering self-serving dribble, it has been noted in the past that u are a control freak, i would go further than that without hesitation, i have found the flavour of the mould to be as expected fungus-i and the bitterness of the herb to be reduced markedly when compared to the untreated fresh dry herb.

u know of two ways to cure the herb Torsten?, i wonder if you would feel certain that either one will produce a consumable product, i have a fair idea that u would not be fear mongering anywhere near as much with your own products, even the untested ones, i wonder if it has occured to u that the only thing u actually know is perhaps two ways of drying the herb? i mean, here i am with a decade of experience with this stuff and i'm still having trouble drying it, work it out einstein, what do u actually think u know that u didnt actually get at least second hand from someone elses books or observations?.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by JumpedAngel:

it is a bit unfair of u Torsten to bring up words like 'kudna', when u know damn well that your o/s clients at least will not be familiar with native aboriginal tradition or the mechanisms of its developement and evolution, these people are unlikely to be able to grasp the finer points of the 'secrets' behind say 'secret womens business' for example, nor the fact that these people lost their tradition when they first learnt to lie

Are you now claiming that Duboisia hopwoodii was used in all areas it grows (or at least a lot more than just pituringa)? Are you saying that the knowledge of this was just lost and only the pituringa area people remember? If you are (and I really don't know if you are), then do you have any evidence for this or are you just making assumoptions?

the south australian Hindmarsh Island bridge debarcle mearly brought out into the open what clowns like u refuse to acknowledge.

What the hell are you talking about?

also dude, there appears to be a few pages missing from your character assassination handbook

I wasn't having a go at you. I don't know you. All I know about you is what you have been spouting in previous posts about this topic. If that is the way you present yourself then maybe you should read over what you have previously written.

firstly let me say that i have no intention of encouraging people who traded for drupe with me to trial your brew on your behalf, if they wish to reveal themselves to u of their own accord then that is their own personal business and good luck to them

I didn't think you would. But I am also not going to offer it freely to everyone as I simply don't have enough for that. However, I am happy to send some to anyone who posts a report about your material.

although it would not surprise me if u had frightened many of them away from ever considering this herb again, it seems clear that u are full of doubt about it yourself, it is obvious that u dont feel comfortable enough with it to have written and distributed a report on your own product so what makes u think that i'm going to encourage these trusting souls into your care?

LOL. I am warning people about smoking mouldy herbs. I do that on all forums and mailing lists because it is very dangerous. I am also warning people to be aware of what exactly they are consuming. In ethnobotany we consume some very dangerus herbs and preparations on the basis that people have been doing so safely for hundreds or thousands of years. We trust in this experiential knowledge. By taking a related species or an untrialled chemotype we are not building on the present knowledge, but we are entering virgin territory. There then is no traditional safety guarantee.

By consuming a material that was INTENTIONALLY discarded by traditional consumers we do one worse and actually ignore the warnings that traditional knowledge provides for us.

You are deceptively passing material onto people that the majority of researchers believe does not have any traditional use, yet you present to have this ethnobotanical safety approval.

As I said before, I think it is great that you make this material available. I have a problem with the fact that you are misrepresenting it. I also have a problem with the mould thing, because you present this as 'traditional knowledge' and yet there is no evidence of this anywhere other than your own suppositions.

As far as not having written a report etc, I simply haven't gotten aroudn to it. You may have nothing else to do, but pituri is only one of many herbs we work with. I consume a little of it every second or third day at the moment, which is the closest I want to come to getting addicted to nicotine. I feel very confident about the material and enoy it immensely. Material form the same plants was handed out at EB3 by Henry to about 60 people, so there is little more to be gained from distributing small amounts of this plain dried material.

My next step is to experiment with some of the processing techniques. But as I said before, sticking a bunch of grapes in a bucket won't produce a nice chardonnay, so before I start processing I would like to know some of the possible pharmacological goals of the process. I am patient with this.

find your own lab rats!

Is that what you call the people who tried your material?

I guess considering that your material does not have any traditional use, nor is your preparation method traditional, the people who are comsuming this are truely lab rats. The fact that you yourself have tested it is in no way an assurance that it doesn't cause any damage.... quite the contrary it appears.

now comes the real test for all this selfserving pituringa area bullshit that you've been spouting eh?

Other than your own consumption of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas you have not provided any evidence at all that contradicts current research. You have had plenty of opportunity to do so, but dismiss anyone's research other than your own. The people of the pituringa area are proud of their tradition and they know their stuff used to be traded many hundred of kilomters into areas that have plenty of their own Duboisia hopwoodii. Your arrogance of dismissing their culture by overriding it with your own singular experience is laughable.

cheers hebrew, tell me dude, weren't u afraid that u were going to die or something?, maybe u had better check that your testicles didnt drop off in the process, he-he, according to Torstens mister know-it-all manual both u and i as well as many of my friends and family should all be dead by now, but especially me, he-he.

Death isn't the only possible consequence of being foolish with toxic plants. Nerve damage (often permanent) from toxic moulds is quite common. As a herb trader I am acutely aware of that as mouldy herbs are the biggest health risk in this business even in terms of ethnobotanical supplies.

I am not stopping people from smoking whatever they like. I just want people to know what risks they are taking so they can take responsibility for those risks. Responsibility that you are not taking.

shows the value of building on someone elses poor quality observations then calling it science, but by all means Torsten, u go right ahead and keep building on it.

There are dozens of people who have done field work on this in the last few years and many have found exciting and new things. Your observatiosn are simply not supported by any of them and hence I prefer to go with those people who have done the most extensive and thorough study rather than an individual who is reinventing the wheel.

you would have to be blind or retarded not to have noticed the mould Torsten, as the plant and the mould apear to be inseperable

I must be both then, cos my material had no mould. In fact the absolute lack of humidity makes mould rather unlikely out there. I did notice a furry coating of an exudate though, which I presume to be nicotine freebase or some other semicrystalline oils. Maybe you just got your furs mixed up a bit.

A sample of herb left in bag for 3 days did not develop any mould and did not smell fermented in any way. I presume the high alkalinity of the nicotine freebase prevents mould formation for at least a little while.

Maybe the stuff in your area had mould. Maybe that's the reason why it is 'kudna'. Who knows....

your ignorance in this regard not only speaks for itself but also highlights and underscores the quality of your supposed 'knowledge'

LOL, I find it funny that you call me ignorant even though you haven't even seen my material and don't know if it does have any mould on it. And as I said, it doesn't. So your assumption really just makes you ignorant.

and again it is not toxic

How do you know?

Just because you haven't keeled over doesn't mean it is no toxic.

and no, i'm not dead, just dead tired of listening to this ill-informed scare-mongering self-serving dribble,

Self serving?? You are selling/trading drupes and herbal material. I am not. You are marketing a product with no documented traditional use. I am not. You are selling mouldy herbs. I am not.

All I am interested in is that the scarce amount of traditional knowledge that is recorded so far isn't diluted and confused by someone trying to make enough money to cover his next holiday in the desert.

it has been noted in the past that u are a control freak

Hmmm, one person springs to mind yeah

u know of two ways to cure the herb Torsten?, i wonder if you would feel certain that either one will produce a consumable product, i have a fair idea that u would not be fear mongering anywhere near as much with your own products, even the untested ones, i wonder if it has occured to u that the only thing u actually know is perhaps two ways of drying the herb?

I've already elaborated in other threads about what I think these 'drying' processes may effect. And no, I think they are definitely more complex than just drying. But for that you would need to understand a little chemistry and my last attempt at explaining it didn't seem to sink in with you. Needless to say temperature and pH play an important role and th two processed may in fact produce two very different products.

But what we also know is that pituri is consumed straight from the shrub. The locals love it like that.

i mean, here i am with a decade of experience with this stuff and i'm still having trouble drying it, work it out einstein, what do u actually think u know that u didnt actually get at least second hand from someone elses books or observations?

You may take 20 years to reinvent the wheel, while other spend those 20 years learning to ride the bike.

Just like ignoring my cultivation notes meant the certain demise of your own plants (while mine and adrian's is flourishing), ignoring the research done by others is always going to waste time. That does not mean research should not be challenged (quite the contrary) but ignoring all of it is simply wasting your own and other people's time.

I am not denying that you may find an excellent way of making a consumable form of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas, but then that is YOUR preparation and not a traditional method. For many people that makes a big difference - especially in regards to safety.

[hebrew]

 

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I am not stopping people from smoking whatever they like. I just want people to know what risks they are taking so they can take responsibility for those risks. Responsibility that you are not taking.

 

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i would like to add that the material that was smoked was not mouldy, the mouldy material was separated. there was little mould in the material.

i agree with responsible use of herbs and drugs. life is far too precious to mess it up with reckless behaviour

as far as nit picking each other goes i think it would be more constructive to put everyones knowledge together and try and make sense of everything,which may take many years, i have seen this sort of thing over at EBA and i think it doesnt help anyone. (e.g mulga)

i look forward to reading the thesis you mentioned torsten as well as "the precious foliage" which i will purchase soon.

you both seem to have knowledge about pituri lets try and work together for the good of everyone.

[planthelper]

hmmmm, quite sticky in here, hmmmmm...

reminds me slightly of tort vs ph, talking catha edulis..., different opinons about the research work, materialise seemingly as personel upset.

it's the knowledge about something, that makes us proud, and if somebody has a contrary opinon our egos get scrached.

here my two cent:

the term kudda or kudna is proly known to most of us, and it stands for "no good" pituri.

the traditionell believe is that only pituri from a special area is strong and good, and all other pituri is useless "kudna".

ja's pituri obviosly comes from a kudna area.

tort's came from the favorite area.

aboriginal people allways only used the non kudna variety and this over proly 40.000 years, so i assume they knew what was good and what was'nt.

only trying out those two materials against each other could clear up this old mistery.

about the mould, i have to say that i am 100% behind tort. i do'nt think mould and pitury are friends as you claim, jumpedAngel.

pituri was one of the most important trade items befor white men came to oz and destroyed it all.

and naturaly i can'nt see this no 1 trade item, which proly acted like money, seeing being traded moldy. no way jose, pituri was staple diet, and was prepeared in a way that would make those pituri leaves last for ages without degrading. i have had experience with mouldy herbs and ther is only one thing you can do with them, and that is, to throw them out.

smoking moldy herbs makes you cough like mad, and is, as mentioned previosly a big health risk.

i got only minute ammounts of ja's pituri, not enough i think for a bio essay, so please send me some so i can test it, but only if it's not moldy.

[Rev]

Ive got T's stuff and im hoping to get some stuff from near perth this season

if i could try some of yours JA id be happy to post my experiences

Ive always had suspiscions that not all the good pituri comes from the traditional area unfortunately ive neither the skills nor the time to go collecting all the places i want to to prove this

If the supply was plentiful and accessible then i wonder how many bioassays the other tribes would have tolerated before they gave up

everyone tried scopolamine intoxication round here? definitely reccomended to do once so you see just how powerful it is

lets not also forget that the tobacco trade of which tere are many many species was alos going on, as was the use of alternatives like isotoma species

id also have some doubts about whether pituri use is a full 40 000 years old

it may be much much younger just like use of other plants around the world like ayahuasca or Peyote desoite there being human habitants for much longer.

itll be along time if ever before we can establish the antiquity of the trade routes.

all indigenous cultures are dynamic and innovative

this is how they survive in harsh places. It seems their ability to survive isnt in question as there are large numbers of aboriginal peole today with their own distinct subculture which while not traditional is certainly their own. had they stuck to traditional roles itd be safe to say thered be almost no aboriginals today/ what good is a woomera when you need to catch a bus? or a well paid job in the city

we cant rely on aboriginal informants any more than we would rely on each other to paint a truthful picture of the industrial age. They live now just like us

[hebrew]

 

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we cant rely on aboriginal informants any more than we would rely on each other to paint a truthful picture of the industrial age. They live now just like us

 

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a good piont indeed reville

but maybe there are some elders in the "true" pituri area that have knowledge that has been passed down. but from what i know about aboriginal culture this information may be "secret" and not considered suitable for "white" people or the unintiated, but then again i am not well versed in these matters.

torsten did you mention that you have been incontact with the people from this area, or was it some one that you know, i would be interested to hear what they have to say about pituri

i dont know if i am ma keing sence right now as the key on my keyvourd are sort of moving and swaying in a cool breeze of bliss but hey that is another story :D

[Torsten]

Originally posted by hebrew:

torsten did you mention that you have been incontact with the people from this area, or was it some one that you know

I was asked not to contact anyone while I was out there. There were a few very sensible restrictions put on me that I promised to adhere to and did.

Mike Letnic and Henry Cox have both had plenty of contact out there. Mike wrote an article for Austalian Geographic. Part of his research was an interview with an elder who remembers harvesting pituri for the trade south.

But Henry is really the authority on all this. He has lived with the people, worked on the land, and has a good understanding of the culture.

At EB3 he told the story how the women at Mt Liebig used to get all excited when he offered to drive them out to the desert for pituri picking.

The pituri tradition started fading with the advent of commercial tobacco, but was still quite active till about 30 years ago. It is virtually non-existent now and we are at the cusp of losing this knowledge.

Btw, for anyone who is wondering what Henry is doing these days, he got his dream job working for a service that helps Aboriginal people in the Perth area obtain their rights. (re 'dream job': Henry's time in the desert has given him a different perspective on things and he wants to help the traditional people not just document them ). He was miffed he missed EB4 and will definitely be at EB5.

[hebrew]

 

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The pituri tradition started fading with the advent of commercial tobacco, but was still quite active till about 30 years ago. It is virtually non-existent now and we are at the cusp of losing this knowledge.

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that is a real shame, i find it very sad that aboriginal culture is diminishing, not only things like pituri but also how languages and other traditions are getting lost.

when i was young at school i had nyoongar friends that would tell me stories about featherfoot men and mummary men that lived in the stirling ranges which was not far from where i come from, as well as wongi's whcih i later found out were teh people from SA way. i always found the stories fascinating, but how much they were pulling my leg i cant say,

anyway we did learn a few nyoongar words and went on a camp to the ranges with an elder who showed us certian things, but i have forgotten now, i do remember him catching a racehorse goanna and cooking it up for us all. my hat goes of to Henry (whoever he is) for working with the local people of perth, for the nyoongar culture is an interesting one, which is close to my heart. and if i ever go back to WA i would love to learn more about the culture.

[woof woof woof]

this topic has sparked my interest enough in D. Hopwoodii.

Does it grow well in semi arid conditions? Are there seeds circulating that would want to find their way overseas to the carrib?

please let me know.

B. Caapi - the Boababs are doing really good.

[Rev]

Wasnt pidjeri used as along distance stamina drug

chewed whil eout searching for yams or hnting or taking the log trek to an event or trading meet

its not suprising that the tradition is dying out and itd be hard to place blame soloey on comercial tobacco - which is after all a different drug.

both ahres a common constituent - nicotine but thats where the similarity ends

other contributing factors would be changes in diet, rations vs collected wild foods.

changes in transport - horse and then 4wd vs walking

stamina isnt as required as it once was. This is prob a contributing factor alongside the devaluation of the resource via cheap tobacco

as for language the oppression by the goivt in dayts past did a lot for that but realistically you have to see what a minority aboriginal peole are and amongst them how many languages they share

This situation isnt much conducive to preservation or strong oral traditions as most people you communicate with in the community will be bilingual and those with the means and the power will prob be more integarted with english speaking circles, whether they be non aboriginal, aboriginals of a different language group or your own people

so its hard to justify the relevance of the old ways when all indications suggest the way forward is to work in the bigger world where the common language seems always to be english

Its sad but to make a cultural institution survive it has to have some relevance and value in peoples lives. It s alotof effort to teach and leran alanguage and if you only use it to speak to a few hundred people or less its value is questionable

[Darklight]

reville:

Its sad but to make a cultural institution survive  it has to have some relevance and value in peoples lives. It s alotof effort to teach and leran alanguage and if you only use it to speak to a few hundred people or less its value is questionable

I strongly disagree with this statement. Cultural relevance of Aboriginal languages was formerly disregarded and the languages themselves outlawed, is it surprising that only now are the people themselves gaining white recognition and encouragement to preserve the extremely diverse range of language groups.

In some instances it has become possible to take individual languages as HSC subjects, though I beleive it will be some time before these are an easy option for those who wish it.

Every time the human species loses a language we lose another way of understanding and communicating the phenomena around us, within us, and our inter-relationships. Preserving languages and dialects is difficult, but definitely valuable

[Torsten]

pidjeri/pituri wasn't just Duboisia hopwoodii, but was a name applied to other favoured nicotine and non-nicotine drugs. It was used for many things, including as a social drug, for stamina, and as a ritual drug. It seems that for the former two quite a few plants were suitable, but for the ritual only the real thing would be acceptable.

This also raises the point why the traditional users would happily call some Nicotiana or Goodenia species pituri while rejecting that name for the Duboisia hopwoodii grown outside the mulligan area.

It appears they knew exactly what they wanted just like we know exactly which beer we like or which cannabis is best.

A similar culture exists in central australia around the mingulba (various spellings again) tobacco. It would be interesting to find out more about similar nicotine culture in other parts of australia. We already know of Nicotiana preferences in Vic, NSW, SA, southern NT, and southern Qld, but know virtually nothing about the possibility of similar traditions in WA, and the northern parts of australia.

In northern WA a member of the scrophulariaceae appears to take this place....

[JumpedAngel]

relax hebrew dude, some species prefer to sharpen their claws on human flesh, u will learn more about this as u learn more about the intricacies and mysteries of the 'academic' sciences, i have been toying with the idea of re-naming myself 'Mulga II' but only for the sake of pressing that now irresistable T button.

various ideas i have been turning over during this brief break are expressed below, i am now slowly beggining to realize that useing 'that' name for any product distributed under any guise which does indeed bare the 'same' name as Torstens product, Henrys product or even Adrians peoduct (should such ever appear) may indeed be a mistake with serious consequences, despite the fact that i believe i have demonstrated clearly why Torsten and co. have no more right to use 'that' name than i have (below), not unless they were to adopt a name such as 'post historic traditional pituri' or some other meaningful definition which would highlight the fact that the 'new' traditional product can in no way be demonstrated to be the same as the 'original' traditional product irrespective of which area it was grown in.

unfortunately Torsten has now succeeded in perverting what was to be a thread dealing with a particular preparation and totally confusing it with his own, also, for 'other reasons' cited below, i have decided to terminate all experimentation with my herb for the moment at least an cease distribution under any guise whatsoever, including analysis and/or research, some serious issues are raised below which i had all but forgotten concerning the product which will apparently soon be becoming available under 'that' name and i want to be certain that no 'association' can be made, even by accident, between my product and the 'new traditional' products, created by Torsten an Co.

i include the material below more for my own fun than for Torstens, or at least this is the way it appears to me as i write this stuff (i may live to regret it but who knows). i maintain the right to refer to the actual plant as 'pituri' irrespective of which area it is from, and will continue to refer to it as such in this and other documents but alluding only to the plant and not the herb that i prepared from it.

reacent rantings:-

 

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What the hell are you talking about?

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The point was that aboriginal tradition changes on an 'as per needs basis' and that fact has been accepted in law but this point seems lost on u.

so whatever u choose to 'believe' of this 'tradition' will always remain questionable in 'fact' including this 'new' word 'kudna', where did u reference it from? can u give a documented source which extends back to the times when the 'original untainted' tradition was being practiced? think carefully about your own claims!

 

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Bottom line is that JA doesn't accept the chemotype concept even though there is plenty of (mostly unpublished) scientific evidence for it.

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putting words in my mouth?, i understand the concept clearly enough but dont accept the emphasis u place on it. as for 'unpublished scientific evidence', u will have to excuse me once again for the poverty of my 'academic' education but i never heard of such a thing, i knew that the rules for creating 'proof of evidence' within these 'academic' sciences was preaty lax but i never heard of anything like 'unpublished creadible scientific evidence' in any science, art or philosophy for that matter, if u intend to base your arguments on unsubstanciated dribble then u will have to prove yourself a better liar than this.

 

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Are you now claiming that Duboisia hopwoodii was used in all areas it grows (or at least a lot more than just pituringa)? Are you saying that the knowledge of this was just lost and only the pituringa area people remember? If you are (and I really don't know if you are), then do you have any evidence for this or are you just making assumoptions?

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are u putting words into my mouth again Torsten?, relateing back to one particular article that we often shit-fight over (Pituri, An Australian Aboriginal drug, Pamela Watson" we get:-

'Accounts of the role of pituri in Aboriginal life are incomplete...'

'no social studies of pituri consumption were undertaken at a time when use was current...'

'Thus, information about pituri is fragmentary, and largely depends upon what Europeans found pertinent and chose to record in explorers’ journals, accounts of missionaries and early botanists, and pastoral memoirs...'

i'm not trying to 'make up' any new theories at all that are 'based' on these old records and observations as i find that using some critical thinking techniques coupled with 'repeatable scientific communications' principles and some 'statistical science' it is imposible to conclude with any degree of certainty that it was the drug 'nicotine' which was originally being targeted in the now completely 'lost' original 'traditional' preparation/s, i actually find that entire 'fixation' of yours to be laudible and possibly irresponsible suggesting possible legal implications also. i dont want to contribute to this 'recorded knowledge' in any way, shape or form, what i am saying is that ALL the old records are tarnished in some way, useless, pointless and virtually valueless (wearing ethnobotanical hat) and should be discarded for they serve only to confuse, offer only partial truths which are dangerous and it will never be possible to confirm any of it now that this original 'tradition' is indeed LOST.

therefore, seeing as we now have access to the plant again and a little experiencial knowledge to guide us, we can simply assimilate the herb anew using bio-assay techniques, as a 'new' process/preparation, not neccesarily based in any way on the tainted old 'supposed traditional' knowledge which is impossible to define, and specifically avoiding that which we already know to be dangerous.

before u put more words in my mouth Torsten (wearing anthropological hat) the article refered to above is true and concise and appears to be accurate to the best of my knowledge (such is the neccesity of dealing with these 'academic' sciences where the rule/s of evidence change from one science to another with no clear indication being given when a supposed 'expert' like Torsten flitters from the one to the other).

 

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LOL. I am warning people about smoking mouldy herbs. I do that on all forums and mailing lists because it is very dangerous. I am also warning people to be aware of what exactly they are consuming. In ethnobotany we consume some very dangerus herbs and preparations on the basis that people have been doing so safely for hundreds or thousands of years. We trust in this experiential knowledge. By taking a related species or an untrialled chemotype we are not building on the present knowledge, but we are entering virgin territory. There then is no traditional safety guarantee....

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'safely', oh, thats a total joke Torsten, you are saying this to someone who has had to eat moulds to survive in third-world refugee-camp shitholes, but of course neither that nor the reference concerning microbiology of food (and herb) that i have at my finger tips, nor the fact that since 1991 i had comprehensive monthly blood tests, could possibly outweigh the weight of ownership u have on this site, i would have thought that u might instead encourage these same people to take care when ingesting Bufotenine nasally rather than show praise and admiration as u have recently done if indeed your motive is trully 'safety'.

 

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By consuming a material that was INTENTIONALLY discarded by traditional consumers we do one worse and actually ignore the warnings that traditional knowledge provides for us.

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there is only one thing more dangerous than a partial truth...

what fucking traditional knowledge?????...

 

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You are deceptively passing material onto people that the majority of researchers believe does not have any traditional use, yet you present to have this ethnobotanical safety approval.

 

As I said before, I think it is great that you make this material available. I have a problem with the fact that you are misrepresenting it. I also have a problem with the mould thing, because you present this as 'traditional knowledge' and yet there is no evidence of this anywhere other than your own suppositions.

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'deceptively'?, 'ethnobotanical safety approval'?, got your hand preganent yet mate?, i said we should start from scratch and re-build the knowledge, and i have assayed the stuff first hand over a decade, and i have provided a bio-assaying procedural link which appears to be far superior to anything that i have seen on 'your' 'ethnobotanic' site, yet u distribute herbs which are potentially far more dangerous than this for profit and say things like this about me?, perhaps i should be seeking 'legal' advice rather than 'ethnobotanic' reference material, dude.

as for this 'ethnobotanical safety approval' statement of yours, this is the joke of all jokes, this is the statement which will see u in court one day, this statement shows clearly that u and henry and even adrian are 'stoners' rather than 'ethnobatanists' because if either one of u had ever researched the wealth of documented and published material available through the 'Mankind' and 'Oceania' journals then u would have seen and been aware of the problems associated with cancerous erruptions on the individuals who use this variety of pituri that is high in nicotine content, so is nicotine non-toxic?, non-carcinogenic perhaps?, especially in these highly refined varieties that u are distributing without any kind of warning?

 

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Is that what you call the people who tried your material? I guess considering that your material does not have any traditional use, nor is your preparation method traditional, the people who are comsuming this are truely lab rats. The fact that you yourself have tested it is in no way an assurance that it doesn't cause any damage.... quite the contrary it appears.

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u want me to provide guinea pigs, lab rats, whatever, for your experiments?, what am i, some kind of fucking pimp?, dont u yourself credit them with the intelligence to make up their own minds? if they want to fuck with an untreated herb? of dubious origin?, of unusually high and refined nicotine content, then thats fine by me but only if u tell them first, but u want me to hand over my data for your purposes? without question? for purposes which are not clear, like when u asked for my photos of the plant in the desert perhaps? u give no bio-assay report? or recomendations of any sort whatsoever on how the herb can or should be consumed?, yeh!, but i'm the 'bad boy' because i refered to them as 'lab rats', well i'm sure they would survive my insults if that had been my intention but are u sure that they will survive what u have in mind for them, for myself, i would not ingest any quantity of that untreated herb of dubious origin even if my own mother stuck it in front of me without at least asking the obvious questions, questions the answers to which u failed to provide.

and yes i particularly urge people, even u Torsten, to at least seek out the data on the carcinogenic aspects of your 'traditional pituri' that 'have been' published in journals like 'Mankind' and 'Oceania' and to view them first hand at your local state library, they show many graphically illustrated images of large cancerous growths behind these peoples ears where they had stored their pituri quid in the traditional native way. but of course Torsten, u have your banner of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' to hide behind, tell me dude, where is your banner of 'ethnobotanic responsibility' hiding?, surely not behind the 'poisons for profit' banner i hope, i'm just wondering what some formal body like the anti-cancer council, for example, might do with u if they aquire the said documentation and decide to make an example of u, be grateful that u only have me to deal with (for the moment).

 

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Other than your own consumption of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas you have not provided any evidence at all that contradicts current research.

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again, what and whose fucking current research, yours???, then publish the fucker at least! or make it available in some other way because really mate, on the strength of current knowledge, having to pay for that would only add insult to injury.

 

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You have had plenty of opportunity to do so, but dismiss anyone's research other than your own. The people of the pituringa area are proud of their tradition and they know their stuff used to be traded many hundred of kilomters into areas that have plenty of their own Duboisia hopwoodii. Your arrogance of dismissing their culture by overriding it with your own singular experience is laughable.

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[ this didn't need to be here and any of the remaining racist shit is only left as a showpiece for this bloke's ugly racism- DL ] ne by other people and then claimed it as their own, in this particular case it will be interesting to see if they go 'power happy' and try to claim this knowledge as being their 'sole' right under copyright law, or weather they themselves would want to face the responsibilities which now go with clear carcenogenic consequences.

i am painfully aware of the various shit fights these people with whom u claim such admirable empathy have already caused in various courts of australian law when challenging the use of dots in paintings for example, even when they dont resemble their own form of art, and the use of the circles within circles, claiming sole right to the use of this symbol 'universally' despite the known use of the symbol in ireland for over a thousand years, what the fuck are we to do?, deface all irish monuments for their sake?, [ this didn't need to be here - DL ]

u on the other hand 'do' claim to be useing and distributing a preparation made in accordance with some native 'tradition' sanctioned under the banner of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' but offer no proof of evidence as does this Henry character u speak of so highly, so how is it that u can get away with stealing 'their' tradition for the sake of your business profits, hmmmm? please explain.

i understand perfectly well your argument over semantics, however the stuff i sent out as a sample for analysis is no less a preparation made from the 'pituri bush' than yours. and yours can never be demonstrated to be any more 'traditional' than mine unless u 'bend' the word 'traditional' to include 'only recent tradition'.

 

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Death isn't the only possible consequence of being foolish with toxic plants

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u didnt offer this advice to that chap recently snorting Bufotenine, did u? i take it that according to u the snorting of Bufotenine is 'safe'? and non-toxic?

 

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There are dozens of people who have done field work on this in the last few years and many have found exciting and new things. Your observatiosn are simply not supported by any of them and hence I prefer to go with those people who have done the most extensive and thorough study rather than an individual who is reinventing the wheel.

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'exciting and new things'?, but then again u will never say who or what these are, what they disagree with about what i've said or anything else that could be considered or analyzed rationally, i would love to see u use this argument in a court of law, are u sure they arn't just 'brown noseing' or pressing the T button?, can u even name one who isnt affraid to come out of the shadow and face me and stand accountable as i have done for their opinion, gee Torsten, i am so impressed with the quality of your experts as well as your expertise.

 

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How do you know? Just because you haven't keeled over doesn't mean it is no toxic.

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you are right here, it could indeed be 'toxic', i have read that most capsicums are toxic too, and one thing that happens when i eat capsicums is that i get a bad case of indegestion, and this is usually from small quantities too, i can't possibly imagine how bad i would feel if i consumed a kg of capsicums over a period of approx. 2 months, i know for a fact that i would be a very sick puppy so i would never do that, as for the herb?, been there, done that, so once again, whats your point? (everything is poison, nothing is poison, old cliche).

as previously mentioned, comprehensive blood tests done monthly on myself since 91 showed no sigificant pustule or blood toxicity variations.

further more i have had a look at a current reference which cites 'the' two 'moulds' which are known to have produced toxic by-products on herbs on a historical basis, these are Aspergillus flavus known to grow on cotton seed products and peanut meal, and which is the most common mould found on red and black pepper (identified by blue fluorescence under uv) and Aspergillus ochraceus (identified by greenish fluorescence under uv) and is quoted in U.S. patent no 1,313,209 covering the induction of desirable changes during the fermentation of coffee, it would be academic as to which would be more toxic when compared to say, something like that yopo mix or this concentrated forms of nicotine for that matter, unless of course u claim u know better than Ayres/Mundt/Sandine - Microbiology of Foods 1980 p249->, although both moulds are said to produce toxic by-products these toxins appear to be active on foul, swime and trout rather than humans, and the moulds bear little resemlance to 'my mould' (which i have a long history of eating raw and fresh as well as stale and old), which until i know better will remain nameless, at the very least mate i can refer back to my sources, so now u tell me what fucking toxin u are talking about and how this relates to the preparation i made and we will all see if u are spouting shit or not, ok dude?.

 

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Self serving?? You are selling/trading drupes and herbal material. I am not.

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so now i'm selling herb? yeah i wish!, the trade was consistently focused on a rare commodity, that being fresh/viable drupe for propogation purposes, the herbal sample was offered for experimentation/analysis as a bonus for completed trades as i did get fucked around, some folks arnt quite up to keeping their word as i am, and i sent out drupe as quickly as i could to keep it as fresh as i could in all good faith, however some folks it appears maintain the right to change their offer after they recieve what they want, i tend to put individuals of this type onto my black list, never to be acknowledged again, but why would someone feel guilty about something like that anyway? when accused by someone who has based at least one entire business on distributing, among other things, herbal products?.

 

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You are marketing a product with no documented traditional use. I am not. You are selling mouldy herbs. I am not. All I am interested in is that the scarce amount of traditional knowledge that is recorded so far isn't diluted and confused by someone trying to make enough money to cover his next holiday in the desert.

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i have mentioned what i think of your fucking precious traditional knowledge havent i?, now if i say it again then u will no doubt accuse me of spouting, but if you are going down this road then let me ask you about something that i've been wondering about, as i have seen reference to 'Henrys stuff' mentioned elsewhere on your site, so was this stuff traditionally prepared? according to what documentation/tradition? oh please do tell, i wont cast a slur on Henry, i promise, not until he crosses my path and reveals his motive anyway, hehe, but your motives are clear enough, so tell me, have u ever advertised EB on the basis that Henry (and his preparation) would be there? did you ever allow, encourage or facilitate the distribution of this substance through one of your 'business ventures'?, and did you ever distribute your own 'traditional' herb at said venue/s, oh do tell, do u feel guilty about something perhaps?

it is really stupid to go down this road u know Torsten, and i would urge u to be certain of your facts before making accusations along these lines as i think that u stand more to lose than i do, especially when useing such words as selling and marketing and implying that i am in some way profiteering?, with garbage like that coming my way it comes as no surprise that a wrong impression has been created that i am selling this stuff, and the consequent enquiries that i am still getting now are more your doing than mine.

 

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I've already elaborated in other threads about what I think these 'drying' processes may effect.

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where?

 

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And no, I think they are definitely more complex than just drying. But for that you would need to understand a little chemistry and my last attempt at explaining it didn't seem to sink in with you.

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refresh me, which particular 'disagreement' was that? u wouldn't be making interpretations on my behalf again would u Torsten?

 

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Just like ignoring my cultivation notes meant the certain demise of your own plants (while mine and adrian's is flourishing), ignoring the research done by others is always going to waste time. That does not mean research should not be challenged (quite the contrary) but ignoring all of it is simply wasting your own and other people's time.

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u didnt make them public till after mine died and even then it was preaty sketchy stuff, (no pics.), and i thought i made it perfectly clear to u back then (publicly) that this might not have happened if u had shared rather than hidden your observations.

 

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I am not denying that you may find an excellent way of making a consumable form of Duboisia hopwoodii from various areas, but then that is YOUR preparation and not a traditional method. For many people that makes a big difference - especially in regards to safety.

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so who died and made u pituri god?, u have no sole right to determine what pituri is, was or ever shall be, as far as i am concerned, pituri is 'any' herbal preparation based on D. hopwoodii otherwise known by its 'common name' as the 'pituri bush', it can be fresh herb (as u stated) it can be mixed with native tobacco (as others have stated), it can be emu poison, or it can be dried, poached, char-grilled or farted on for all i care, it is still valid to call it pituri, it is still a preparation made from the plant with 'that' 'common name', and not subject by law to the exclusive use of yourself or any aboriginal community that i am aware of under the guise of some traditionally prepared herb subject to this pathetic new concept of 'ethnobotanical safety approval' that u happened to make up to suit your purposes.

[ 04. January 2005, 07:06: Message edited by: Darklight ]