Idk what to name this thread, it has to do with Brugsmansias

[Meditator]

Ive had a thought. Everyone knows that shamans in south America use Brugsmansia in certain ayahuasca brews. And we hear stories of these secret super potent specific strains they grow (even for certain reasons).

Well it got me thinking about the ones I grow. When the flowers die, they drop off onto the ground, and when it rains, the tropane alkaloids must go into the soil. Wouldn't the alkaloids get sucked back into the new flowers and make them stronger? The leaves also drop off and make small piles of dead flowers/leaves around the base.

I think after years of this cycle, that brugsansias would be as much as 5 times as potent. Idk what does everyone else think? Anyone got any science to prove or disprove this?

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I'm honesty not sure, but when I thought, if u fertilised your mint with brug flowers, would you have tropane mint, I thought na.

Be cool if someone said it did tho.

[gtarman]

RE: thread title - maybe something like "Brugmansia composting and decomposition of alkaloids", would probably get a few more clicks.

Personally, my answer would be probably not. But I'm not a scientist or anything...I just think that rotting and decomposing would have to mean the destruction of phyto-chemicals contained within. Although I don't know much about the behaviour of tropane alkaloids in that regard. Will be interesting to see if somebody wades in with a bit more knowledge.

Although from what I hear of Brugmansias in general, potency doesn't seem to be a big issue?

I've never heard of anyone taking it orally without marked (and often damaging or even fatal) effects.

Edited December 1, 2013 by gtarman

[Micromegas]

Usually ayahuasqueros are not adding enough brugmansia to a brew to have a physiological effect.

IME, it is a "few" leaves (3-6 whole leaves of b. aurea for a brew for many sessions with many people) to bring in the spirit of the plant, which is reinforced during the ceremonies with the use of icaros specific to that plant. The icaro and the shaman's relationship to the plant (obtained during a dieta with brugmansia) is actually more important than physical plant material. And the toe comes through clear and true with an ayahuaquero who has dieted extensively with toe.

Shamans inclined to sorcery may add more, I have not personally experienced that.

Further to your point, the high rainfall and extreme leaching of soil in the amazon is likely to weaken the theory that fallen leaves would increase the plant's alkaloid profile. Toe is not common in the forest and is usually a twiggy plant with few leaves that rarely flowers.

Misha, used by curanderos on the north coast of peru in conjunction with san pedro may be a different story. In that case, also, however, usually the amount of brugmansia added to the brew is quite small and is more to the effect of bringing in the spirit of the plant.

In the west we look at direct pharmocological impacts of a plant, but in situ, it is more to do with bringing in the spirit of the plant as an ally to the central plant, either Huachuma or ayahuasca.

To do a proper dieta with brugmansia is extremely rigorous and lasts upward of three months. I am sure selecting potentiated plants is critical in this matter but increased alkaloids due to rotted leaves and flowers is unlikely to be an important element due to the high leaching of amazonian soil as well as sharp runoff in the Andes.

The above is true of other companion plants such as Bobinzana, Chiric Sanago, Camalonga and the whole suite of "Tree Doctors" and other companion plants. Some of the brews with multitude companion plants can get extremely gnarly, especially if the curandero is well versed in the incaros for these plants and has dieted them extensively.

[Distracted]

I'm not sure on brugmansia specifically however I don't know of any plant that becomes more active from the roots absorbing that active. Generally the plant synthesises the compound itself through other precursors that it makes itself.

So a first answer would be no.

A second answer would be I don't know for sure but extremely unlikely given what I know about plants.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Distracted

[Darklight]

I'm interested in this too but for a slightly different reason

Wondering how stable the actives are once they hit the soil

I have a whole pile of Brugs come up where I dumped a bunch of branches a few years ago and they tower over one of the beds in my veggie patch. When it dries there is a fair amount of leaf drop and the rootzone potentially extends into the bed as well

I have leafy greens and medicinals growing in that bed, will be ready to harvest and I'm wondering if they could uptake or biotransform Brug alkaloids

Am assuming other plants wouldn't uptake actives from the decaying leaves falling on them or we'd have heard about it before in the headlines. But hey, would love to know

[tripsis]

I've read other members of Solanaceae can take up actives through their roots. More specifically, what I read was talking about tomatoes if I recall correctly. Can't comment on the veracity of that however.