animals as drugs ?

[VINS]

hy all,

just a question:

we are always talking about plant molecules which are used because they are similar to or brain one. i am not a scientist but in my idea, the animals world is more human-similar than the world of plant. why do we find drugs in plants and not in animals.

[woof woof woof]

Hmmm, i am sure that there are some trippy animals, ... I remember reading about a trippy fish once....

Heh, When will the first Dinosaur era, special alkaloid plants b discovered..... hehe, plants that may have had up to 5%...or maybe even higher amounts of goodies in them.... Lets hope the scientifis community stumbles on some of that DNA.... muhuhuhuhahahah muhuhuhhahahaha

[gomaos]

...but then we'd probably be killing animals for drugs.

it's bad enough that we keep animals in concentration-camp-like conditions so we can exploit them for food purposes later (i.e. chickens), while, really, the human metabolism could well do without any meat and just eat plants instead.

yet because of TRADITION and BECAUSE WE'RE USED TO IT we eat animals.

So unscrupulous animal farmers continue to torture these poor critters...

I hope they'll never discover how to turn animals into drugs...

[Auxin]

There are a few that have bufotenine. The cane toad for one. I got a video of a trippy australian getting fried on cane toads, freaky stuff.

At one point they made steroids out of slaughterhouse waste.

Adrenaline is a compound that naturally occurs in animals, of course the medicinal material is synthetic.

And one old time medicine is the paste made by boiling down animal urine. A very good astringent for preventing cuts from getting infected (unless you cut your mouth, it still works but you dont call it 'very good' anymore;)).

You can make DMT out of animal milk and flesh, but that requires a little chemistry.

Oriental medicine considers numerous parts of numerous animals as medicines or drugs of various kinds.

[nabraxas]

the biggest drug from animals, produced in outrageous conditions in the US (but nicely here- & we may even export the tech. ) is the hormone replacement therapy drug progesterone(?not sure)- which comes from pregnant mares urine.

yes, cane toads produce bufotenine & amazon frogs produce poison the locals dip their arrows in.

spanish fly(lyatta vesicatori) or cantharidin anyone?

there's a poison fish in japan that must be served so there's just enough toxin in it to get you off & not enough to kill- still people die every year form eating this delicacy.

most anti-venoms & anti-virals are produced from infected animals blood serum.

i'm sure many animal toxins are studdied for their uses in medicine.

[nabraxas]

oh- & if we wanna talk about animal expoitation for drugs- pity the poor Tequila Mescal worm.

i mean the poor thing has absolutely NO effect chemically, (s)he's just there as a status symbol- & then there's the double worm minitures!!!

FREE THE WORM !!!

[Torsten]

In Korea they torture dogs to increase the adrenaline levels before they kill and eat them. An untortured animal is said to 'not have the kick in the meat'.

The dog is usually tied to a tree on a short chain/leash. It is then beaten with canes and sticks by several people standing in a circle. The dog cannot escape, but frantically runs around to get away from the pain. Once it is too tired to run around anymore it is then hung up by the chain and while suspended and choking is beaten some more. It is also not uncommon to drag or swing the exhausted animal around on its chain. I have even seen one documentary where boiling water was thrown repeatedly at the dog. The dogs cry and whimper continuously. These practises are incomprehensible.

It used to be common to feed the animals some opium before killing. This seems to have several reasons, but the main one being that the combination of opium and adrenaline is especially desirable (hmmm, new definition of 'speedballs').

While I respect every cultures rituals, I do not accept that animals need to suffer for them excessively. The korean dog industry is one of those cultural things I find reprehensible and feel that it has no place in modern society.

One could argue that what we do to our cows isn't all that different and I agree (ever been to a cattle yard??). The adrenaline content in meat is actually one of the main reasons why I periodically cut meat out of my diet for several months.

[nabraxas]

yep. even in the most humane ov conditions the cattle are terrified, just by the overpowering smell ov blood, guts & death.

[nabraxas]

i've been a vego for 17 years but i recently became aware there are a few chemicals we can only get from animal sources- including milk, so vegans beware- B12, vitamin A (not beta-carotene) & to a lesser extent vitamin D3

[Auxin]

"chemicals we can only get from animal sources-... B12, vitamin A (not beta-carotene) & to a lesser extent vitamin D3"

Vitamin B12 PILLS are made from spent antibiotic liquors, sugar-beet molasses, whey, and sewage sludge (maby thats why the cheap vitamin brands taste crappy, they are 'recycled' vitamins).

Beta-carotene comes from plants and is converted to vitamin A by the liver, so its the same thing nutrition-wise.

And noone ever said being vegetarian was easy (ok, some people did but they were hospitalized for malnutrition). Its better if its hard anyway, that way its actually a test for your capacity for compassion.

[ 30. January 2003, 15:47: Message edited by: Auxin ]

[nabraxas]

can't say i know anything about how they make vitb12 pills but micro organisms, whey & sewarage count as animal products.- interesting story ov jains who are total vegans & healthy in india (where the flour contains many animal impurities- insect faeces, bodies etc), but fall sick with B12 deficiency after some time in the UK, due to this lack ov animal contamination.(16. (a) HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An Anthropological/Nutritional Evaluation, J Appl Nutr, 1980, 32:2:53-87; ( M Rose. Serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels in Australian adolescent vegetarians. Lancet, 1976, 2:8)

"the conversion from carotene to vitA in the intestines can only take place in the presence of bile salts. this means that fat must be eaten with the carotenes to stimulate the bile secretion. additionally, infants & people with hypothyroidism, gall bladder problems or diabetes either cannot make the conversion or do so very poorly. lastly, the body's conversion is not very efficient: it takes roughly 6 units of carotene to make 1 unit of VitA."- Dr Stephen Byrnes

- although it doesn't really effect vegetarians who drink milk, eat cheese etc; as i said- more vegans who eat no animal products. if you wanna check out dr byrnes, his website is http://www.powerhealth.net/

he's a bit fwooty

[ 31. January 2003, 08:49: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

[Rev]

Hey gom

I disagree that meat eating is because of Tradition or simply because we are used to it

Meat TASTES GOOD

Most of us know this already but in scientific terms, there are receptors in our palate that respond to the tastes of meat and they are mostly pleasing, backing up the fact that we are omnivores. Even Buddhist monks shape their tofu into meat shapes and textures to try and bring some satisfacton back to the meal

In terms of its health, lean clean (synthetic hormones, anitibiotics and adrenaline minimised or lacking) meat is quite nutritious. Protein, amino acids, vitamins, fatty acids and minerals like Zinc and Iron.

Were lucky in Australia that if you look you can still find a farmer who kills there own meat, properly, where they keep the animal fairly relaxed, then zip.., throats cut with a razor shape knife and its all over... the meat is so much nicer this way. Not too expensive either if you prearrange a whole carcass for the deep freeze - of course this is to be done on the quiet as its not really allowed

as is venison from a guy i met in the SW who lets them roam his property and picks them off with a rifle when needed.

I wonder if in future we'll be able to buy 'unstressed" meat from naturally doped animals ( put out to pasture on the valerian ) with tested limits on adrenaline

Regarding antibiotics, theres a fair bit of research going into Pro-biotics these days to replace them. Lets wish them luck

But we live so long these days that its probably a good idea to reduce intake relative to physical age and start to replace with alternatives several times a week. Meat is rich enough to build a body but you wont need so much to maintain it

Theres also the way we eat it and what parts we eat

A chargrilled large steak is going to have more detrimental effects due to its sheer bulk and the by products of cooking than a smaller amount of more nutritious cuts

Carnivores usually tuck straight into the viscera before consuming the rest more casually, especially pack hunters where the dominant animals get first choice.

B12 is also found in significant quantities in Mushrooms and in fermented foods (as mentioned)

I think the value of fermented foods is understated in our modern diet

Kim chee, Sauerkraut, Tempeh, moulded cheeses,Natural beer all taste a hell of a lot better than their consutuents and are more nutritious.

[Auxin]

"micro organisms, whey & sewarage count as animal products"

Yeasts are not animals.

OK, technically sewage is an animal product but where do vegetarians draw the line? Damn! I can appreciate you not wanting to kill concious and perhaps even sentient beings for food, I think its admirable and compassionate. But not eating a chemical extracted from shit? Whats up with that, it doesnt hurt the animals in question (us) at all seeing as how we already discarded it at that point. I do want to understand that but cant, is it like a religiously motivated vegitarian ideal or is it one of those extreamist vegitarian things or what? Shit extracts are everywhere now adays- vitamins, perscription drugs, ice cream (legal in the USA anyways), power plants, fertilizer, etc. and you never know what products have them, so how do you avoid it?

[nabraxas]

"claims are made that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh, & in brewers yeast. all false, as b12 is only found in animal foods. brewers & nutritional yeast do not contain b12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source"(check your vegemite- no b12 there)

"there are not real b12 vitamins in plant sources but b12 analogues; these are not bioavailable. it should be noted that b12 analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin b12 in the body due to competative absorption."

the reason i was stressing the animal source was not some radical vegetarianism, but to answer the original post- drugs(chemicals that have a radical action on body chemistry?) from animals.

&"Even Buddhist monks shape their tofu into meat shapes and textures to try and bring some satisfacton back to the meal"- that wouldn't be tibetan buddhist monks like the dahli lama then, who make no pretense about their enjoyment ov meat dishes.

[Torsten]

I was under the impression that some mushrooms contained b12, albeit in trace amounts. if this is so, then it is quite conceivable that other yeasts and their fermentation products may contain b12 too.

[Auxin]

"if this is so, then it is quite conceivable that other yeasts and their fermentation products may contain b12 too."

I already said B12 pills are made from spent antibiotic liquors amoung other things. Spent antibiotic liquors are in the group of 'other yeasts and their fermentation products'. Maby I should have been more clear.

[Torsten]

yes, auxin you did. I was merely expanding it in response to nabraxas' comments