newtonia physics/quatum physics

[devance]

Just to get things rolling a cave man would only know newtonian physics.

Quatum physics would be beyond comprehension without education.

What that got to do with religion well thats for a opinion.

Forgive my spelling. I defintely need a spell checker.

[ramon]

Quatum physics would be beyond comprehension without education.

 

Buddha seem to get it without what we would probably call a education

[devance]

The problem is one is not such historical figures didn't happen which I am sure occured.

But what were they feeling at the time?

And how in physics?

Really the only way to think about it that there was a connective way spiritually and the physics isn't very important.

[ramon]

What I meant was that the fundamentals of buddhism seem to be very much in line with Quantum physics. ie the interconnection of everything in the universe and also the connection between the observer and the observed.

From memory the was a book call "Tao of Physics " by Fitjrof Capra which dwelved into the amazing similarities between eastern mysticism and quantum physics.

[devance]

Quatum physics is essentially that all points are not completely seperated from The Big Bang of creation.

Which would be from a singular point.

A physics outlook that loosing creadabilty.

[nabraxas]

i'm not sure what you're trying to say devance.

why would a caveman be more able to grasp the ideas ov Newtonian physics than quantum physics without education?

Dr. Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics" tends to go abit too far.

 

quote:

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Bohm's first model, "total rapport," also called non-locality, brings us very close -- very, very close -- to Oriental monism: "All is One," as in Vedanta, Buddhism, and Taoism. It also brings us within hailing distance of Jungian synchronicity, an idea that seems "occult" or worse to most scientists -- even if Wolfgang Pauli, a quantum heavyweight and Nobel laureate, once endorsed it. You can see why New Agers like this; it is argued with unction and plausibility in Fritjof Capra's The Tao of Physics. It means particles are correlated because everything is correlated.

 

The strongest form of this non-local model is called super-determinism and means that everything is one thing, or at least one process. From the Big Bang to the last word of this sentence and beyond, nothing can be other than it is, since everything is part of a correlated whole. Nobody has openly endorsed this view but several (Stapp, Herbert et al.) have accused others, especially Capra, of unknowingly endorsing it.

 

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[Legba]

...but what did the 'caveman' know that we've forgotten. evolution is an arragant assumption. i reckon we're going backwards. we know more and more about less and less. doesn't PhD stand for 'Piled higher and Deeper'? ...um...hope none o' u guys r phd's...

[alucinare]

Yeh i think i'm missing the point. Maybe the "caveman" is a metaphor for a limit of knowledge in man, that knowledge being Newtonian physics, and quantum physics needs an education to understand because there is expanding of that knowledge limit. And how does that apply to religion? which becomes just an opinion when observer and observed are not separate. Just trying to understand the meaning here.

 

quote:

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we know more and more about less and less.

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If by "we know more and more" you mean our knowledge has increased and if by "about less and less" you mean about the lesser, smaller aspects of reality, then yes that is possibly true. But there is always more to know and less ignore.

[Hagakure]

i definately dont think we are going backwards.

look at knowledge and its relation to religion.

if you dont know about virus and bacteria then illness is caused by evil spirits. people with mental heath problems become witches and those possesed by the devil. no understanding of evolution makes man think that he is superior to every other beast.

sure the cavemen may possibly have had liberal views towards sex, homosexuality, drugs, body modification - all things various groups in our society are pushing for again. this is looking at the past ignoring all the other details.

rape, violence, inequality, slavery, discrimination, mob justice is part of that life aswell.

we are most definately evolving - problem is we get sidetracked sometimes.

cheer up and enjoy life with a humanist, environmentally aware outlook and encourage others to do so aswell. then everything will be hunky dorey.

[devance]

Caveman was a a metaphor for using fire for cooking and light without knowing about plasma, photon emission and other things.

No one can see these processes eccept newtonianly {apple falls to the ground} but they are true because of mathematical and existential repeatability and preditabilty.

I not sure there ever were caveman just like I doubt there were cavebears.

I was thinking that miracles as historically descibed might be heavy on the quatum physics side of things.

[Fenris]

Newtonian Physics is fundamental and is about looking at the world around and finding a model to fit the observations. Quantum Physics is abstract and relied on 200 years of scientific thought and complex mathematical principles to blossom. It helped iron out the discrepancies that were observed in ever more complicated experiments that never would have been reached without the appropriate building blocks of fundamental Physics.

A cave man would have about as much use for Quantum Physic as for a mobile phone. How many of us could make a flint arrow head or fire from a flint?

Aside: GPS satelites have to take into account the time dilation associated with traveling so fast in order to locate your handheld GPS accurately.

While trying to understand Quantum Physics I found reciting "The Jabberwocky" quite appropriate.

I am unsure that there is a link between QP & philosophies that see the universe as interconnected. QP can help you see to the far reaches of space or know what is happening inside a star. Maybe the same things can be seen while under the influence of certain sacraments but Quantum Physics will never bring you closer to God or explain unknowable mysteries, it is just a tool to see how things work much like a microscope.

Its no wonder we feel connected with something, a few hundred million years ago we were all star dust and gas.

[devance]

Totally agree Fenris, Your desciption is what I was weakly trying to say.

But consider the theory of all dimensions are somewhat related in the primordial single explosion of expansion.

Quantum physics is as you say but what about the experiment where a photon can take two paths and it takes the one you thougth it would.

Or Quantum entaglement, that they are trying to use for unbreakable codes.

Or the 11 string theory which is not far from the 12 number.

[Thelema]

dont all n-dimensional theories ultimately have to be tested in the 4-d (spacetime) realm?

so everything is really just a complicated 4-d theory. Nothing else makes sense!

[Salviador]

A caveman can observe the laws of physics with day to day experience, and get an intuitive feeling of how newtonian physics work. A buddhist monk can use their mind to test models of realities they have created. This model as mentioned in Fritjov Capra's book, seems to be relate to a quantum model of reality.

The highest form of religion is science and vice versa

[Thelema]

i think everyone here (apart from me) is confusing know-how with know-THAT.

big difference. between presentation and representation. saying that cavemen/buddhists are akin to Quantum realization smacks of saying that a bird knows mechanistic physics because it can catch a moth in-flight trajectory.

[devance]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/...3/990317060831.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/...50603074513.htm

[Salviador]

Ok caveman is a bad example. Newton found out about physics without complex equipment, by testing the limits of his reality. But he could never have even speculated about quantum physics as there was no way in the macroscopic world that quantum physics would be noticable. However, as has been propsed a number of times in this thread buddhist monks have similar access to quantum physics as scientists did to newtonian physics before the advent of high tech measuring devices

To Thelema- in relation to your comment about complex 4 dimensional theories of the universe, Buddhists often speak of trancendental experiences, where they transcend space and time, this is why the tao cannot be spoken perhaps?

[ 13. June 2005, 03:16: Message edited by: Salviador ]

[devance]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4602739.stm

I can't see bears dragging kills into a cave.

[devance]

Bibical histery does make mention of the 6,000 years too create the earth.

A year is a orbit around the Sun which is faster around the sun as the closer the planet is.

A year is alot longer far away orbitaly.

A natural question would be how would solar light

manage a ecosytem from a far away orbit?

[Hagakure]

I’m not sure if this is in the right post but here we go

Scientists generally all agree the earth is 4.5 billion years old.

Bible fans say 6000

Therefore a bible year must on average contain 750000 of the years we experience at the moment.

The earth is currently on average about 149597840km away from the sun.

It on average therefore travels on a circumference of 939950950km

lets say that the earth on its biblical orbit is travelling at the same speed it is now (I’m forgetting some physics here about attraction between two objects but lets say it travels at the same speed) for it to be a biblical year the circumference would have to be 704963212705351 km

and it would have to be 112198379999999 from the sun.

That’s 112193875700000km FURTHER THAN NEPTUNE.

Now you can change the earths speed all you like but your theory is still going to go nowhere.

Even if my mathematics has a flaw in it you still have to explain how the planet will move closer to the sun without an absolutely HUGE amount of force.

On top of all that if we moved the earth out from the orbit it currently has even the slightest bit a lot of ecosystems are going to feel it pretty hard.

[ 16. June 2005, 13:59: Message edited by: Hagakure ]

[Hagakure]

actually to have an orbit like the one you propose i think it might have to go past Alpha Centauri - its at the very least light years away i think

[ 16. June 2005, 14:01: Message edited by: Hagakure ]

[Hagakure]

if anyone wants to work out what the orbit and speed earth would have.... http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Orbital-speed

the concept is too ridiculous for me to be spend any more time on

[ 16. June 2005, 14:52: Message edited by: Hagakure ]

[devance]

But according to a nova PBS program I saw the Moon was created by collision with a another planetary body by the Earth, which ejected the Moon mass.

Might throw off the pure tragetory calculations?

[Hagakure]

describe your whole theory from the start.

im not sure what you are trying to say here but if its anything that hasnt been discovered already i wonder how someone with (i am assuming here - apologies if i am wrong) no credentials in astrophysics is going to stumble upon it while watching a documentry on TV.

[devance]

http://seekers.100megs6.com/ufoman4.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1154784.stm

Its easy to discover new things by testing phenomenon without a dogmatic viewpoint, usually steming from a mindless acceptance of college fed attitudes that masquerade as the lastest and best in thought.

The only thing more pathetic are the college wannabess.

Their righteous indignation over any new theory is fueled by knowing that they will never be able to do anything but parrot the common attitude while the more fortunate are taught how to investigate which means forming and testing new theorys.

Discoverys usually are the result of new instrumentation which means new data.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7539

For new evolutionary theory.

Theorys come and go. Some say they only have a 11 years life span now days.

Obviously for me to originate a new discovery new data/instumentation is necessary. A new theory simply anticipates the direction new data would originate from.

I was hoping for new data imput.

A failed effert.

[ 19. June 2005, 02:54: Message edited by: devance ]