Thoughts on religion

[caludia]

my thought on religion is: monotheism seems inaccurate to me.

i can understand a pantheist, but not a monotheist (i mean the Yahweh ape-in-the-sky semitic monotheism)

some pantheists say they are monotheists. More power to them, keep on truckin, i see where you r coming from.

Why is VB such a maligned beer brand??? It tastes ok and does the trick, like Bud/Busch in the USA.

[devance]

LUCIFER IS hebrew FOR the morning stAR BEFORE SUNRISE

Satan is simply a word for adversary against God..

Something to think about with the star wars movie.

[apothecary]

 

devances post reminded me of a leetle essay I once wrote and handed out to christians.

I was young and silly.

[ 28. August 2005, 15:36: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[Hagakure]

the idea of any god with any role in this world is ridiculous.

we are the result of random mutations and organic chemistry along with every other living organism on the planet.

our planet isnt even that significant - its a grain of sand in a never ending ocean.

we shouldnt glorify our position of clever monkey to what the universe revolves around anytime soon.

and even if there was a god he is doing a shitty job of it. if non believers go to hell then look at how much of the globe was not given prophets and has not heard this one god and his commands(you can take any religion and apply this thought process).

thats like arresting people for laws that they were never told about and cant access.

also the messengers of god can not validate their authenticity - say there was a god and he chose some people to tell you about him - why should you beleive them - they have no proof, there are dozens of religions telling you they were chosen and they have the real deal - how can you tell?

the only way you can trust something is to see it for yourself.

these are fairly simple arguments - how do people still beleive in some toga wearing bearded monkey that really really cares about everything every single one of us does so he can categorise us into an eternal agony group and eternal pleasure group?

come on now

[psycho0]

mescalito:

Can't recall where this came from:

"The White Man goes into his church and talks about Jesus; the Indian goes into his Tepee and talks   to  Jesus."

   :cool:  

it's out of 'plants of the gods'

[eeroborroc]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by eeroborroc

[Endrogen]

i think the bible is a "free" book of morals, written in a way to transcend time... Then someone put a "value" to it.. if that makes sense

[Prophet]

 

quote:

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Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

---

as far as i know there is no mention of the world being "flat" in the bible. That was a man made teaching.

[ 25. May 2005, 02:48: Message edited by: Prophet ]

[Hagakure]

im pretty sure danemacca doesnt intend that to be taken too literally.

that statement from my interpretation is saying that to dudes with no knowledge of modern science both concepts are entirely possible.

it is easier to prove existence than non-existence though.

if i say unicorns dont exist that statement can instantly be shown by finding a unicorn. (earth shown to be round)

if i say that unicorns do exist you cant prove that they dont exist only make enough of a rational argument to show that they dont.

so if you do beleive in god prophet what happens to every man woman and child who never heard about this god before they died?

dont say that limbo argument either that was put in bible ages after it was written and is only in christian version not protestant version.

[Hagakure]

i dont doubt that religions provide good advice but good advice can be followed without mythology that can blind people from reality.

[Legba]

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

this could be interpreted (by an idiot) as...

if u dont believe in my god ur rooted 'n' i, perhaps, should kill u 4 the good of all.

i believe the problem is that everyone has their own spin on the texts of religion. and its bin goin on like this 4 so long, the sense has gone from the message.

"i am the way" imho refers to a person being an "I", not a "many". but no one is an "I". everyone is a "many". this way one moment, that way the next. its not even in our control. external events direct our moods. until i can be an "I" instead of a "many", i cant have a unified view of my spirituality, just a whole lot of fragmented ideas that leads me in circles. if u wanna study quantum optics, start with addition and multiplication. if u wish to follow a religious texts directives, start with becoming an "I".

'course this is mho; if ur offended or vehemently disagree just write me off as an idiot.

[Prophet]

 

quote:

---

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

---

I cannot try and prove the existance of God scientifically but I believe it is also unscientific to believe that everything came into being by itself from nothing.

 

quote:

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Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

---

For me this is evidence enough that there is a FAther creator God who created everything out of nothing by His Word.

 

quote:

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Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

---

I can also understand how alot of people are put off religion by the state of modern churches and the hypocracy going on. That is why i choose not to attend a church but rather read the scriptures for myself at home. I learn alot more that way. I don't want to be corrupted by denominational teachings.

 

quote:

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so if you do beleive in god prophet what happens to every man woman and child who never heard about this god before they died?

 

---

that is a good question, i personally believe everyone is given a chance to believe. But if someone dies without being given a chance having never heard about God i'm sure they will be shown mercy. It is those who have heard and refuse to believe which have no excuse.

peace

[Hagakure]

but surely you can see that if a god did create the earth he would probably get a "D" in his world creation 101 class.

if i was to design a computer program where the inhabitants main role was to follow a set of orders that i was to give them i would go through it in a variety of ways.

first of all the easiest way would be to program them how i want them. if i wanted them to not rape, not murder etc i would make it so they cant do it.

lets say i was a little twisted. i might make such behaviour within their abilities. i may program them so they can rape and murder. first of all i would wonder why after programming them to be able to do this that i would then want to take a round about way to stop them again but lets say i do.

i would say that it is bad to do this by some awesomeness that could only be done by me the programmer and none of the inhabitants. say i made the virtual sky flash purple and green all over my virtual world then from the sky my booming voice told everyone what they should and shouldnt do. everyone would realise that i aint the cat to be fucking with and would obey my orders. i would need to do this at least once in every persons life so everyone knows.

what i wouldnt do is tell one person secretly what everyone should and shouldnt be doing to let them tell everyone else. the person i told may tell everyone that they should kill etc and tag on one of their own beliefs. chinese whispers is going to destroy the message.

plus i am completely ignoring every other individual who doesnt have contact to this chosen person. on top of this i only tell the message once and it gets passed on for thousands of years.

surely people all over my virtual planet will have come up with their own ideas which they say is the absolute way. how will my virtual people know who is telling the truth?

then factor in evolution. if i did create the planet for the sole purpose of observing and judging some evolved monkeys i took a round about way of doing it by starting out with single cell organisms in the dawn of time.

so away from this computer program metaphor. there definately isnt a god up there who gives a shit about what you are doing down here - if there is, he is a fucked up sicko.

it is much more likely if there was a god that he is watching us like a reality tv show cause this planet is one big survival of the fittest.

but hey we should all love and respect each other cause we are all in the same boat and it would be nice if we could ALL have a good time while we are alive. you should have good actions and thoughts out of love, not out of fear of some firey pit.

dont take any of this personally btw

[Flip]

prophet

 

quote:

---

I personally am a Christian and i believe nothing can compare to the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. ~snip~ I have never been a part of any other religion and don't intend to because i believe i have found the truth.

---

What a statement of conviction!

But let me ask, how is that you've come by this conviction?

when I assume that by "never been apart of another religion"

you also mean that you've never looked into and studied

another viewpoint from their perspective

and not by the way of a western/ christian retranslation?

IF so, then you really don't know anything by truly challenging it.

you've simply compared something to itself or judged it from subjective christian values?

 

quote:

---

I cannot try and prove the existance of God scientifically but I believe it is also unscientific to believe that everything came into being by itself from nothing

---

you're right, the myth of genisis is not scientific.

Where as, Hawlking and others are working on the origins of our known universe.

Science hasn't contended anything "magically" appearing...

you are misinformed if you believe that they are saying that.

 

quote:

---

For me this is evidence enough that there is a FAther creator God who created everything out of nothing by His Word

---

and I have other evidence:

" Gabbla the Omnipotent down from the tube of being

and landed in a sea of milk. He rested and started to dream

about happy things. He dreamed about men and animals

and fruit on trees... and it was good."

the fact is that it's a creation story to explain common questions

before the age of reason.

 

quote:

---

I can also understand how alot of people are put off religion by the state of modern churches and the hypocracy going on.

---

well thats something...

 

quote:

---

That is why i choose not to attend a church but rather read the scriptures for myself at home. I learn alot more that way.

---

"Learn"? ....Really?

or are you just memorizing and swallowing dogma without question?

 

quote:

---

I don't want to be corrupted by denominational teachings.

---

Er, you know that set of books that you're reading...

that was written and re-written by people that are all parts

of different religious and power perspectives and goals.

don't you think that they themselves over the centuries

edited and changed those "Holy Books"

Not to mention, Deciding which writing best served their purposes in the first place?

Here's a little something that shouldn't rattle you too much.

The Grand Inquisitor, by Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky

1879

it's only a short chapter from The Brothers Karamazov

read it a few times it'll be interesting to see what you get out of it.

Don't you think it's a bit pretentious to give yourself such a nic? hummmmmm?

or are you just trying to associate yourself with something

that you view as greater than yourself?

[Prophet]

what made me come by this conviction? that is a good question and not easy to answer because i don't believe it is my own doing.

 

quote:

---

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

---

quote:

---

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

---

God's seeks out those who are looking for the truth and whose hearts He has prepared to recieve the truth.

"you also mean that you've never looked into and studied another viewpoint from their perspective

and not by the way of a western/ christian retranslation?"

yes i have studied the herbrew scriptures and have quite a bit of knowledge of judaic beliefs and i have also read the quran. And i also have the scriptures in greek and hebrew to compare with my "western retranslation". And yes i have challenged what i believe since i have studied evolution at university and i used to be a non-believer. Might i add i don't believe evolution anymore, it is an unscientific theory.

peace

[devance]

Flip:

prophet

 

quote:

---

I personally am a Christian and i believe nothing can compare to the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. ~snip~ I have never been a part of any other religion and don't intend to because i believe i have found the truth.

---

What a statement of conviction!

But let me ask, how is that you've come by this conviction?

when I assume that by "never been apart of another religion"

you also mean that you've never looked into and studied

another viewpoint from their perspective

and not  by the way of a western/ christian retranslation?

IF so, then you really don't know  anything by truly challenging it.

you've simply compared something to itself or judged it from subjective christian values?

 

quote:

---

I cannot try and prove the existance of God scientifically but I believe it is also unscientific to believe that everything came into being by itself from nothing

---

you're right, the myth of genisis is not scientific.

Where as, Hawlking and others are working on the origins of our known universe.

Science hasn't contended anything "magically" appearing...

you are misinformed if you believe that they are saying that.

 

quote:

---

For me this is evidence enough that there is a FAther creator God who created everything out of nothing by His Word

---

and I have other evidence:

" Gabbla the Omnipotent down from the tube of being

and landed in a sea of milk. He rested and started to dream

about happy things. He dreamed about men and animals

and fruit on trees... and it was good."

the fact is that it's a creation story to explain common questions

before the age of reason.

 

quote:

---

I can also understand how alot of people are put off religion by the state of modern churches and the hypocracy going on.

---

well thats something...

 

quote:

---

That is why i choose not to attend a church but rather read the scriptures for myself at home. I learn alot more that way.

---

"Learn"? ....Really?

or are you just memorizing and swallowing dogma without question?

 

quote:

---

I don't want to be corrupted by denominational teachings.

---

Er, you know that set of books that you're reading...

that was written and re-written by people that are all parts

of different religious and power perspectives and goals.

don't you think that they  themselves over the centuries

edited and changed those "Holy Books"

Not to mention, Deciding which writing best served their purposes in the first place?

Here's a little something that shouldn't rattle you too much.

The Grand Inquisitor, by Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky

1879

it's only a short chapter from The Brothers Karamazov

read it a few times  it'll be interesting to see what you get out of it.

Don't you think it's a bit pretentious to give yourself such a nic? hummmmmm?

or are you just trying to associate yourself with something

that you view as greater than yourself?

Science isn't a faith destroyer by any means.

And will ultimately prove what what.

Carbon 14 dating is badly flawed due to not considering Sun fluctuations.

.

[Flip]

prophet,

 

quote:

---

God's seeks out those who are looking for the truth and whose hearts He has prepared to recieve the truth.

---

The truth?

I see no truth, only stories (that are myths).

same as all the other once valid religions that ever existed.

Want to worship Zeus instead?

it's roughly the same, except that you can climb Mt Olympus

and prove that he's not living there.

All creation myths (and by extension religions) are created in

response to age old questions and to provide for basic emotional needs.

 

quote:

---

 

yes i have studied the herbrew ~snip judaic beliefs ~snip i have also read the quran. And i also have the scriptures in greek and hebrew to compare with my "western retranslation

---

Thank you, this is exactly what I was saying above.

"that you've never looked into and studied

another viewpoint from their perspective"

These are all springing from the same jewish roots of

monotheism and the benevolent god.

and as I said before:

"you've simply compared something to itself"

with predictable results...

 

quote:

---

Might i add i don't believe evolution anymore, it is an unscientific theory.

---

oh yes, hahah

and since when have you cared about scientific validity?

your myths aren't scientific.

You can tell yourself lies to make it easier for you to not

challenge your acceptance of creation myths.

Here's a fair page on the subject

devance,

 

quote:

---

Science isn't a faith destroyer by any means.

 

And will ultimately prove what what.

---

Well, the definition of faith is to act as if something unproven is the truth....

and to deny the validity of real facts to maintain such falsehoods.

It's often used to preserve the identity constructed

for the psyche comfort of the individual.

Science is a methodology for the pursuit of truth.

and it's always in a constant progression of learning or

debunking old understandings in favor of better ones.

It's this aspect that some people have problems with

as they simply want answers (the simpler the better!)

Facts don't matter as long as the story is livable with.

It's all motivated by the desire to ease the consciousness.

and not to have nagging questions.

 

quote:

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Carbon 14 dating is badly flawed due to not considering Sun fluctuations.

---

Are you saying that because such dating can be off by a hundred thousand years

(or whatever it is.... )

That are you contending that the earth / universe is really only 6,000 years old!

That the universe was created in 6 days, all "talked into being"

by some omnipotent being that we have no evidence of?

and humans actually co-existed with dinosaurs?

Hey, Did you know?

The bible is badly flawed due to it's use of myth, make believe

and lack of accounting due to pervasive untestability?

and yet people want to believe so badly in ANYTHING

that they'll Go along with lies as long as it can make them feel

that they're OK,

part of a grand scheme,

alleviate the fear of Death,

being alone,

the unknown,

while promising punishment of enemies

and some reward "later on..."

Religion is the opiate of the masses

-K. Marx

Religions are the greatest binder and blinder of humanity

(-flip)

[ 27. May 2005, 04:00: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Prophet]

[Prophet]

Flip i don't know what your problem is with religion but if you think science will solve all your problems then you can put your faith in science. Might i add that i have nothing against true science but if you think evolution is science then you can put your faith in it.

 

quote:

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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

---

[Hagakure]

okay lets get one thing straight.

EVOLUTION HAPPENS

i am a third year science student specialising in genetics and plants.

i have a good understanding of the biological happenings in living organisms and a detailed understanding of how evolution works.

every single person with an open mind and an ability to process the basic information that is involved with evolution realises that evolution happens without a doubt.

sometimes christians come up with bullshit about how the science world is divided on the issue - that is a pure lie.

any scientist worth a damn knows that evolution happens. the "scientists" that support creationism are not scientists.

they are christians who go through the process of the degree purely for their political means - that or they are clever, greedy scientists who know that they can make a lot of money saying what they do (i have been considering this as a laugh but thought it might be pushing it a little too far)

i suggest you educate yourself more on the matter as i am so sure that evolution does happen i would gladly commit "seppuku" if i was ever proved wrong.

(hmmm perhaps this handle is influencing my posts a little too much but i am sure of the facts enough to put my life on the line - are you the same about creationism?)

i will make a post detailing the basics of biology and how evolution happens later tonight for all those interested. it is fascinating stuff and pretty much explains every single facet of our behaviour, actions and physical form.

in the meantime i would be honoured if prophet replied to my previous post.

[Prophet]

I will have you know that i have studied evolution and it is only a theory, it has never been proven, and never will be. I think such a stupid theory requires alot more faith than belief in God. Can you explain the lack of fossil evidence showing transitional forms? where are they? why do new organisms suddenly appear out of nowhere with no gradual change? Microevolution is possible but i am yet to see one species change into another by a series of random mutuations. Its ok with me if you want to believe you evolved from a monkey, you can believe what you want.

[Endrogen]

"I will have you know that i have studied evolution"

"Its ok with me if you want to believe you evolved from a monkey"

So what's your view on the %90+ similarity between human-monkey dna?

[Hagakure]

endrogen - we have about 70% or so the same dna as these little worms as well :D its not that suprising when you look at the conservation of protein structures like ribosomes - from bacteria to humans the basic structure of these little guys has changed very little

i agree it is indeed called the "theory" of evolution but there is also the "theory" of gravity dont get hung up on language to try to debate science.

to your point on microevolution if you believe in this then you essentially have to take evolution with it. you just have to think in extended timeframes (to people who think the world is 6000 or whatever years old this is hard i realise that)

but lets keep evolution out of this thread, i will start up a new one with the basic information on how it happens to debate it.

i would much rather you answer me what happens to everyone who hasnt heard of your christian god. there is still a lot of them plus the billions more including our ancestors.

btw exactly where did you study evolution?

[apothecary]

Endrogen I think the number stands (seriously) at 99.4% shared human and monkey DNA.

Fossilization is an unusual occurence. It requires bone, and the subject to die in an area where sediments are being deposited. What's that geographically? 20% of Earth? Much less prehistorially, I think.

What is that supposed to prove anyway? If fossils don't exist, then that animal never existed?! Heh, you gotta be kidding.

I agree evolution is only a theory. But at least supporters don't have the arrogance to take it as gospel (no pun intended). They know it's a theory, they don't call it "The Law of Evolution".

If your lack of belief is due to a lack of proof, where is the proof for your Bible? I didn't say faith, I said proof, just like you. You require proof of a theory, but you don't hold the book you base your life around to that same standard? How disrespectful.

New species emerge from three paths: convergent evolution, punctuated equilibrium and lastly, mutation; with PE being the most important.

If you don't know what any of those terms mean, you obviously haven't studied the theory as you say you have.

Can't see new species emerging from another? Bullshit. Look at venus fly traps, they have evolved with mouth! Another millenia or ten, and they could have eyes or something. Microevolution leads to macroevolution.

[ 27. May 2005, 16:02: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[Flip]

Prophet? ... (not!)

 

quote:

---

Flip i don't know what your problem is with religion but if you think science will solve all your problems then you can put your faith in science.

---

My "problem" is as I've said before

Religion is The greatest Binder and Blinder of humanity

My problem is that such dogma, has mislead and deluded millions of people and held the human race back.

Now usually it's tolerated with polite amusement by the learned

however, when religious organizations are imposing their illusions upon my government & society... I draw the line.

Check out this comic thats get passed out to kids

Notice that the girl said that Jesus created man not the jew or islamic god...

it shows the twist that these christians are making and their agenda for social control /indoctranation.

In the USA the republican right wing is pushing for control of the court systems

to solidify the christian wetdream by training their own lawers

 

quote:

---

Might i add that i have nothing against true science but if you think evolution is science then you can put your faith in it.

---

hahah, you have a wonderful way of twisting concepts to suit yourself.

Scientific thought termed the word theory to describe how a set of facts can be explained using reason and testability.

that is itself scientific.

As described in that article that I linked you to above ("Evolution is a fact and a theory")

Guess you didn't read it huh?

and not least importantly,

There is no faith involved in this... it's fact based.

you seem to believe that the two words are interchangeable

they are not.

Science is a tool for understanding

where as, the religion that you speak of is for delusions.

and I can prove it again and again....

perhaps, you're just afraid of having to reconstruct your ethos.

 

quote:

---

I think such a stupid theory requires alot more faith than belief in God. Can you explain the lack of fossil evidence showing transitional forms? where are they?

---

In Utah, home of the Mormons! :D

You know, I googled transitional dinosaurs and found this up top.

transitional dino

 

quote:

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why do new organisms suddenly appear out of nowhere with no gradual change? Microevolution is possible but i am yet to see one species change into another by a series of random mutuations.

---

New species don't just majically appear

but can evolve quite rapidly within geologic time, just like old species can die out.

One single gene expression can have dramatic implications.

Man is not the measure of all things (how arrogant)

You won't likely see

A) what you don't wish to accept and

will happen so slowly in your lifetime that

you'll be likely to miss it.

but over a few thousands of years much can happen.

thats a geological "flash".

 

quote:

---

Its ok with me if you want to believe you evolved from a monkey, you can believe what you want.

---

Sure thing. but I want to believe many things in this world

that would allow me to feel better.

the difference is that I accept reasoning and fact.

and choose to live in reality.

You do not, seemingly wishing to "believe"

in the Lie calling itself the truth.

Look at what happened when religion held sway in the world

the Dark Ages!

religion and your holy books controlled everything.

People we're taught, if anything,

(most we're kept in numbing ignorance)

to look back vs forward for answers

just as you do now in your personal life.

and what was the result?... nothing but loss and retardation.

(There's much to be said here but thats another thread.)

Science and the resulting understanding has moved us all forward.

If you wish to go back

be my guest... because thats what many religious people

are working towards -right now.

Go ahead, stop being a hypocrite and abandon

the last 300 years of civilized advancements and worship

your god in a cave like the authors did (2,000+ years ago)

and eat grasshoppers.

It doesn't matter how much you suffer

because you'll be rewarded in the afterlife right?

I'm really looking forward to your reply

and how much of my statements you choose to ignore this time.

[ 27. May 2005, 22:42: Message edited by: Flip ]