the restoration of original condition ..

[delysid]

Science has an enumeral definer ; "THE RESTORATION OF ORIGINAL CONDITION"

catchy .. but dogged in higher school texts and university manuals from each end of science, due to the empirical necessity of science to 'support' an approach of an idea in defining 'stuff', is the hidden agenda of measurement : "the restoration of original condition".

..er .. odd topic to start a young Corroboree career, but i'm asking for some thoughts from others about thier discovery of this in-built mechanism.

Surely it is a cultural artifact due to the methods, calculations, applications, and studies ..blah blah built from educational instituions (which i was told had all the answers). However, the more often I apply this as a criticism of people when interperating their definition of something spiritual, (apart from garbage), the more often I see even the highest wisdom seemingly constrained .. almost as if our language cant extend beyond it.

It? What the hell im talking about is that Science, for me, taught me to measure. Taught me to measure the states of difference within any given experiment, study, scenario, scene, program, or any state that adopted change as a focus. And since every experiment had a focus, and every everything else I applied this to had a focus, the results are everywhere ..abounding. And subsequently there is no such thing as "it" returning to normal. "it" is almost ALWAYS irrevocably changed by either the focus, or by our measurement method .. which is ultimately TIME.

We are in a constant process of decay. The very nature of Life as described by us(science), has a birth, and a long tale of decay, a constant fight of Life against the odds. We have a mode of interaction with life as an experiment, measured next to time, which has a past presnt and future.

And we judge our existence based on "how it WAS like" .. our past is co-present .. with our present.. we live it .. it marks the spot from when we last CHANGED .."

so ..

So whats the alternative.. cant it be mounted in such a case? How do we NOT measure?

:confused:

please .. talk

[ 18. February 2005, 11:42: Message edited by: delysid ]

[-YT-]

"How do we NOT measure?" well if you mean measuring time is it possible? i mean if we had no clocks or sense of time eg-minutes/hrs etc, would we then not Change or decay? As we would have no sense of "Oh i went to the beach on monday" cuz their would be no measurement of time including days/dates months. everyday would be everyday

[delysid]

erm... everday is friggin everyday..whether we name it or not

just because we see it coming doesnt make it better .. or something

[narayan]

 

quote:

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And subsequently there is no such thing as "it" returning to normal. "it" is almost ALWAYS irrevocably changed by either the focus, or by our measurement method

---

Ever heard of Schrödingers cat or quantum theory?

coult it be that the universe exists through our ability to perceive it, past, present and future are all entwined.

[Thelema]

MEASUREMENT DOES NOT occur in the samhadi-state, or the state of wu-wei/wu-hsien.

[Cyjack]

Right into the thick of things eh?

Perhaps the only thing that can be measured IS change. If there is no change in something, then what has been observed?

I believe the human eyes work like this too - they pick up change and not flat stimulus.

Have you ever heard the trick about staring at someone's face for ten minutes without either of you moving? It is supposed to show you their soul's different incarnations or something. Basically though, your mind wrestles with the non-changing scenery and begins to create change by itself. (It is fun at parties)

How not to measure though? Well, with language and thought - words flow like a river so you cant hold onto a word or a thought (which a word is). Perhaps you cant hold onto conclusions either, so finishing with an answer is not helpfull. Perhaps the freedom you are seeking involves an open-endedness of infinite possibility beyond polar perspectives.

[nabraxas]

good thing samhedi isn't a permanent fixture yet then, i wouldn't wanna miss me birthday.

[delysid]

nice replies thankyou all.

The issue of measurement in science, and its affect on the approach to existential theory, is I guess my concern.

When you look past the thin veil of religion, science, the funny french existentialists, psychologists, and the whole gang who have had a crack at "it", you end up where? Infantile, or somehow left only to interpret your immediate surroundings like a newborn wild animal. The very moment you begin to process the incoming data, even if treated as raw and free of any prejudicies, you begin to look for change. Learning is somehow root bound to the idea that change must occur, and by that we determine things.

Things as ; dangerous, sticky, wet, cold all that. But it is always a determination vis a vis the original time you measured it. Is it cold? well...its feels colder than it did the first time u asked, so yes, its cold. Our interpretation of the event is defined only by its marker or starting point. 7 degrees centigrade is only cold because we have an 8degrees and a 9 etc. Pre-literate 'iceman' would have been as trapped as we are, even now with the eskimos with the 17 words for snow.

(back on track) So the mode of interpretation, certainly in the best sciences that I've got my money on, is still one of measurement with regard to the restoration of original condition.

The problem for me, is there is no such thing as the restoration of original condition. "It", we, that, him, her, us, blahblah are NEVER the same ever, from one moment to the next. The original condition can NEVER be restored.

Silly example time : salts in solution.

2 glasses of water.................1 teaspoon salt

temperature constant 22 deg....1 spoon

Take one glass of water, add one teaspoon of salt.

Place next to control and stir salted water until dissolves.

Ok, so in simple terms, they both started the same, now ones gone all salty on us, there has beena change. Big deal right? No, small biscuits actually, nonetheless .. How to return the salted water to orignal condition?

pick your method .. evaporative collection is an easy enough weapon of choice. Upon beginning the retreat to orignal condition, how do you KNOW when it has restored itself? At the atomic configuration at least .. beyond pH, hardness, quantity, ppm of salts etc. How can we possibly KNOW that the configuration within each glass, including all possible variables, contaminants and eletrical interferance, that the restoration of original condition has been reached?

I put it to you that it is an impossibility out of all probabilities.

So, in-built to our interpretation mechanism, is a 0 when there shold have been a 1. And we have built empires of data ontop of it. Only if you accept that the restoration of original condition will never occur, can true, i guess chaos, be embraced. That means all bets are off, have I got to undergo some sort of complete modality refurbishment in order to rebuild it to disclude this absurd assumption?

Reminds me of an Adrian Edundson book reading in melbourne. Ade got up on stage, opened "The Gobbler", adjusted his throat and said ..."80% of everything is crap"

:cool:

For now, I've got this to ponder ..

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyjack:

 

Perhaps the freedom you are seeking involves an open-endedness of infinite possibility beyond polar perspectives.

---

[delysid]

oh sorry .. and Thelema, unfortunately my ignorance hampers me like a twitch, and I know not of the state of which you speak. do tell, please.

[Cyjack]

I found some Terence McKenna quotes that seem to follow in your efforts..

 

quote:

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"You have to transcend the idea of a closed logical system. You have to live with the idea that there is no intellectual closure. This is in fact the door marked Freedom, but you have been taught it is the door marked Madness. To live in the light of paradox."

---

and

 

quote:

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"Part of what the psychedelic revolution is and why it is so politically threatening is because a psychedelic person does not believe anything they cannot confirm for themselves through thought, intuition or feeling and a non psychedelic person joins up with the quantum physicists, or some group of people who already have it packaged and figured out."

---

And finally..

 

quote:

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"We don't realise that we are not real unless we are the center of our own private mandala and so we look to media, to experts, you know maybe the Dali Lama can clarify it, or Mother Teresa, or Stephen Hawking. Well forget all that, those are just linguistic concepts as far as you're concerned. The only thing that is real to you is yourself and your immediate surroundings. And if we could empower that, you know our political problems could disappear overnight. We are infantile and we do love it. We don't really try to claim our own existential validity, and those who do are called mad because they depart from the sanctioned paradigm."

---

[reptyle]

the problem with the idea of an original condition is that it pressupose that we did infact start from somewhere other than where we are at the moment. we are in fact taking part in our original condition as we speak. original condition is as dynamic as our imaginative ways of defining our surroundings. the idea that we respond to change in the form of conceptualising what we know as time does lead to the assumption of an original condition, however if it is understood that the perception of change and hence the experince of time is merely that, a perception, which happens to be based upon a misinterpretation of our own measuring devices (eyes, ears etc). we construct the image of self based on what we "remember" having measured and interpreted and what our projections for our future will be, these are inface non existent features of self, we are essentially unable to be changed because we only exist in one state. the dual nature of reality allows us the percive time whilst also allowing us to destroy time, this is why the moment we percive is always the original condition.

hope that makes as much sense reading it as it did when i was writting it. haha. never

[delysid]

now we are heating and preparing food with fossil fuel ..

nicely put cyjack .. still formulating a coherant response

[delysid]

 

quote:

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Originally posted by reptyle:

 

the problem with the idea of an original condition is that it pressupose that we did infact start from somewhere other than where we are at the moment. we are in fact taking part in our original condition as we speak. original condition is as dynamic as our imaginative ways of defining our surroundings.

 

hope that makes as much sense reading it as it did when i was writting it. haha. never

---

hah yeh I think it did, let me recant in order that I didnt receive it as hypnogogia.

> Are you suggesting that the NOW state, is the orignal condition, and the the PAST state is a mere reflection or resonance?

That would explain some things, but does not account for the fact my skin is old.

> "We are taking part in the original condition state now as we speak."

I understand this only as a principle of Karma, the now state being one of sort of ..charge .. if u like. My awareness of the Karmic balance, (you'll notice, not described by any other philosophy that includes Karma), is one I can only liken to either a pendulum, or tide.

The pendulum metaphor seems to apply nicely when you can see events being driven, against the path of least resistance, into the path of most resistance. I can almost feel or identify in that sort of environment the cresendo, or watershed, where eventually the weight of pushing the pendulum that far out is too much, something gives, and the sudden rush of the balanced state returns, but _to exactly the opposing direction from whence it was last pushed at the peak of its trajectory_. And the nature of this is fractal, in small ways, in big ways its all the same, and each small ways contributes to the overall swing of things...

The tide example comes to mind as a more subtler representation of the same force, however water being more dynamic the metaphor could be endless..

(retreats from drigression) If the original condition is as dynamic as our current awareness or thinking, then all bets are truly off. We forego on accepting original condition, and accept that nothing will stay the same. Was it Sheldrake that got it down to a bumper sticker? "ALL FLOWS"

..so now I am left in a paradox .. in a life that has only one certainty .. which is death, i will live in a condition of constant change brought about by life.

:confused:

[Cyjack]

Why so eager to jump in with death? Perhaps the only certainty is change. The rest is yet to be met...

[teonanacatl]

who was it that said that time and space = story and place. something like that. the only was to measure time is through stories.

[delysid]

not eager to jump in with death as such .. elsewhere in my mental studio, I have toyed that death is the great attractor. this is fuel for another thread, and certainly not as bad as it sounds..

change IS a certainty, that much I will agree furiously with you. orignal condition? ..well its been tossed now .. back to chaos, the cold howling wind.

and as I've found, to embrace chaos is a cold and lonely task, firstly its so unoccupied. And secondly, my language faulters , waivers, and stops ... so hard to discuss in terms of words which are root bound to science.

incidentally I found someone to blame too .. Descartes. Yes, "the founder of modern science", got the idea from a dream state where he claimed to be visited by a holy (religious) artifact he described as an angel. Someone who's history is better understood and repected than mine may be able to support/deny this. From what I understand the young Descartes was young and mischievous,and somehwre on the continent, working for the foreign legion or something. The angle came to him in a vision and said something like "The secret to modern science is through number and measurement"

..(you guys must hate me for not giving accurate, signposted references)

And so, our mistake fell into history, and now with the largest cultural artifact yet seen (technology) poised delicately ontop of this, the foundations start to crumble..

ok so..

jaded sim complaint #1 :

whats this meta-physical, religious artifact, doing in my science bed?

jaded sim complaint #2 :

now at this end of the spectrum, after all that has preceded us, we continue our mistake in reductionist reasoning and scientific rationale so far, that we have given "chaos" a number? -the cosmological constant.

are we for real ?