woof woof woof Posted January 27, 2004 Rune: quote: For me there is a heaven,..... and I get a glimpse of it here on earth. But Brian, don't you believe there can be a Heaven HERE on Earth? yeah,... but incorporating heaven in your life is work,... and I am lazy. :D hi hi hi,...joking.Yes heaven is on earth is what I should have said,... but do we see / feel it all the time? My happyness is my heaven meter. yeah, .. something worth working for! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rune Posted January 27, 2004 [ 27. January 2004, 11:13: Message edited by: Rune ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rune Posted January 27, 2004 mr b.caapi: :confused: Sorry - I mean in a spiritual sense :cool: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woof woof woof Posted January 27, 2004 Rune: The only problem is: no matter how happy I become within myself, it's not going to be 'perfect' unless the whole world is there with me... I see what you are saying,.. yu are just being realistic in a way,.... still there is no point worrying about the things you cant directly change.heh,... 'change the world ,start with yourself'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thelema Posted February 3, 2004 man will never be that which he thinks he should be. Therefore all goalseeking, and furthermore all activity has no aim toward "should" Sit you still for a while, and strip off this goalseeking and action. After a year you will be stripped down to yourself. This has got nothing to do with religious text at all, but serves as your guide to God. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted February 3, 2004 quote: no matter how happy I become within myself, it's not going to be 'perfect' unless the whole world is there with me... i guess you are aware that this is a classic buddhist sentiment. buddah himself achieved enlightenment(perfection) & could have stopped there, but he realised(same as you) that his enlightenment was nothing if he couldn't enlighten the rest ov the world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted February 4, 2004 Having no way,as way.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted February 5, 2004 in hell there is only pain. in heaven only pleasure [or no pain]. on earth we have pleasure and pain. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted February 5, 2004 i thought it was in hell there is pain and pleasure. pleasure always passes..once it's gone, we want it back, craving it, we feel a void (due to the value we give it), a dichotomy is felt which is painful (pleasure [with value judgement]=pain) pain always passes..when it arises, we push it away, run away from it, or seek alternate grander sensations to veil it, cover it over pleasure and pain - these are two sides of the same coin that is sensation as much as we value and seek pleasure, we receive & perceive pain..most people are fine with that until some big heavy pain comes along in heaven there is pain, and pleasure - but we grasp neither, seek neither, avoid neither. in transcending these polarities, we move above duality, and experience reality as it is. so, on earth we have both heaven & hell, and it's a matter of perception..? call me naive [ 05. February 2004, 13:20: Message edited by: coin ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted February 6, 2004 coin:in heaven there is pain, and pleasure - but we grasp neither, seek neither, avoid neither. in transcending these polarities, we move above duality, and experience reality as it is. Having 'No way as way' ...much of what a lot of us strive for these days without realising it!Check Bruce Lee's "Tao of Jeet-Kune Do" for an intrigueing view on philosophy/spirituality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted February 11, 2004 interesting thought coin. i always though ov heaven as the ultimate junkie paradise. no pain, no pleasure, no desire, no appetite, no memory---infact no stimulation ov any kind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted February 11, 2004 The transcendence I spoke of, it's not that these things - pleasure & pain - are no longer felt or perceived (cognised), it's just we needn't be caught up by them and the flurry of thoughts and emotions they constantly trigger, even on a subconscious level. We can just remain a witness to them, watching them come & go, as they always have and always will; and therefore the mind is left undisturbed. To take this a step further...we might fear that this way of living leaves us as a boring selfish vegetable, and we might ask, why then are high meditation states described in a way that sounds so desirable, if pleasure is supposedly no longer on the agenda..? - Well, it's said, in Vedic thought at least, that the very nature of the mind, the true nature of the universe is transcendent Bliss! (ie, it supersedes the currency of sensation) Let's look at what happens..Ok, so the sensations are pleasure & pain. When these arise we become aware of them. This is simple cognition. Next comes a judgment call - that these sensations are either desirable or undesirable. Next is a habitual reaction, and these are: craving ("very nice, I'll have more thanks") or aversion ("eww no thanks! enough!"). These steps happen *so* quickly that most often we are not even aware of the process. Meditative practise enlightens this procession, and sloooows it down so we get a glimpse of it in action. It gives us Space to see what's really happening. (Also, yes - there are neutral sensations as well, which I suppose is the coin resting on it's circular edge ? However, very often we don't care for the amibiguity of neutral sensations either hehe) Imagine the great spacious peace of no longer chaotically alternating between the role of the hunter & the fugitive. This is the practise of equanimity. When we retain our equanimity, when we are unswayed by the constant arising and passing of pleasure & pain, only then is this true nature of mind and universe revealed. Every time we react automatically, we feed & strengthen this habit of the mind, and the likelihood that we'll react again, and continue to react! Something's got to give. But every little moment we can remain equanimous where we may have had difficulty before, even just once during each day, we start to unfold these old tendencies, and we take one step closer to freedom. We can think of the mind as the clear blue sky. And the reactions - thoughts and emotions, likes and dislikes - as clouds passing across the blue sky..they come and go, temporarily obscuring our view, but they can never mar or change the true blue expansive nature of sky. Or, we can see the constant reactions (to the value judgements of cognised sensation) akin to the stirring of a glass of water. When you stop this persistent stirring, the water settles and becomes still, and only then is the water clear. Another analogy, is a muddy puddle..when you stop agitating it, the dirt falls out of suspension, to the bottom, and the water becomes clear & clean. These are all traditional perspectives. And so, if we can train the mind to settle - to become calm, and become still, to retain its balance, clear out its habit of reacting, and even out of its habit of judgment, the true nature of mind - Bliss! - is revealed. Now we can Act instead of React. We can always *choose* appropriate action. This is true free will, and now instead of slave of circumstance, we become the master of our own destiny. The only way to truly confirm (or deny!) this assertion of the mind's true nature as Bliss, is to begin to practise calming and taming the mind. quote: Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind, Beaten helpless by karma and neurotic thoughts Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves In the infinite ocean of samsara. Rest in natural great peace. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche [ 11. February 2004, 05:35: Message edited by: coin ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rune Posted February 11, 2004 quote: i always though ov heaven as the ultimate junkie paradise. I think so, except junkies are jumping the gun, and entering a mindspace they are not karmically(?) ready for. Real Heaven is STABILITY, without violent extremes of pleasure/pain. People seem to wonder why you would want pleasure all the time. Wouldn't that just get boring? Enlightenment is just a new beginning - it gets better and better and BETTER from there on in. Today's pleasure is tomorrow's pain. Yesterday's pleasure is painful compared to today's pleasure (the idea is NOT to go backwards). But in order to find that stability, you need enlightenment. Otherwise the extremes of good/bad are too great. Before enlightenment you have many glimpses of Heaven, but the feeling is marred by shifts back through negative emotions. Entering enlightenment is like taking a light-plane trip to a beatiful land. The ride is fun, has its ups and downs. Enlightenment is having landed on solid ground - having 'made it!' (Now it's time to EXPLORE!). There is fear coming in to land (what if I crash?!!!), as the landing strip is very bumpy (remember, this IS the road less travelled). Glimpses of the beauty that awaits can be seen out the window. But as Lenny Kravitz says "Baby it 'aint over 'till it's over". I sing this line in my head every day, to remind me that I am not there yet. But I AM approaching the runway, at least. As much as I might sometimes think of myself as 'Mr enlightenment', I am still going through rough stages of bad karma. Well at least I'm close. I know a lot of people who haven't even got in their plane yet! [ 11. February 2004, 10:54: Message edited by: Rune ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nabraxas Posted February 12, 2004 coin-- quote: the true nature of the universe is transcendent Bliss --i agree, isn't it vibrating/radiating that bliss on the OM frequency? the only time i feel i've got anything out ov meditation(other than stillness & balanced--not to be sneezed at)---is when i feel that little shiver ov pleasure that starts at the base ov the spine & goes right up into the brain--causing a mini 'spasm' ov pleasure--& sometimes pure tones to play inside the brain--it's similar to how sometimes if i'm busting for a piss- the release ov the pressure triggers a similar 'shiver'.---JEEZ i don't go round telling folks that to often, but 66th post hopefully hides it well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coin Posted February 12, 2004 yes, that's supposed to be the essence resonance..and if you've 'heard' Om, and I suppose there's no way to verify the few times I believe I have (in theta states), well 'Om' [a-u-m] is just a sort of agreed upon word to describe what sounds like the most bizarre powerful cosmic whirring machine. if you want to look into the bliss nature more, look up "Sat Cit Ananda" other spellings are sat chit ananda, sat cid ananda .. i sort of condensed it down to the Ananda (bliss) part lol, re piss shivers - you can talk about those things here..isn't it fun [ 12. February 2004, 05:38: Message edited by: coin ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rune Posted February 12, 2004 Imagine having the 'good piss' state of being all the time... But it's about the now as opposed to torturing yourself by imagining how good the future will be. When you're on the right path, the future will always seem inviting. You're in between want (the future) and not want (the past). The balance is now, and it's precarious. Having stability (enlightenment) is being satisfied with now. ...I'm coming in to land! ...or is my bad karma just torturing me with another mirage? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
