which came first?

[botanika]

Botanika, this claim of yours interests me:

I've never heard this theory - do you have any sources to back it up? It seems to make sense, and I'd love to learn more!

 

PM'd you.... distance from the equator is clearly shown to be a significant influence.

[Roopey]

I have always been reasonably intelligent, but it took psychedelics for me to realize how stupid/ignorant/arrogant I am. For that - I am eternally grateful.

 

Indeed.

[mr b.caapi]

I must have already been intelligent to even think about taking psychedelics.

[∂an]

I have always been reasonably intelligent, but it took psychedelics for me to realize how stupid/ignorant/arrogant I am. For that - I am eternally grateful.

 

yes I agree, but it wasn't simply a lack of intelligence in the traditional sense that psychedelics showed me. they showed me that there are many more levels of coherence to reality than what is normally perceived, that patterns are operating in higher dimensions to form our observed reality. this is what I am trying to get it regarding the definition of intelligence. although psychedelics can make people more intelligent in the traditional sense of being able to come up with a better design, more creative piece of art etc, their more important effect is to reveal how the world really works, and how to better position your life to live in harmony with its flow/current/field.

Edited September 12, 2011 by kalika

[Roopey]

The biggest factor in selecting intelligence in humans is environment/climate. The most intelligent races are from the northern hemisphere where thousands of years of dealing with cold climates plus an abundance of rich protein (animals in Eurasia/seafood in east Asia) selects intelligence (although through the spread of predominantly northern hemisphere technology and knowledge other factors have come into the equation in contemporary times).....In northern hemispheres so much planning and technology is required to survive ice ages and hunt big energy rich animals (mammoth/whale) that a larger brain = survival.

I was going to show you a picture of how the Eskimos live today, but their aren't any online... Anyways, they are in houses made of plywood and rubbish piling up to high heaven. Not very intelligent if you ask me. Well, not in our current definition of it.

In the southern hemisphere hotter or tropical environments a big energy sapping brain is inefficient and a smaller brain = survival.

You were saying?

If Psychedelics play a role in helping a group survive they will be beneficial and may lead to an increased intellectual or communal capacity but maybe not to the extent of other factors like latitude, climate or diet. It all comes down to whether traits are beneficial or chosen enough to pass on genes.

 

I completely disagree. Plants gave us our consciousness: language, art, reason, intellect, everything. Why else would so many of these entheogenic substances be so similar to Serotonin. Or how DMT plays a huge role in your Circadian Clock. Really think about your theory for a second, and you might see the holes in it. Environment is much, much more than latitude, climate, and diet.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Roopey

[botanika]

I was going to show you a picture of how the Eskimos live today, but their aren't any online... Anyways, they are in houses made of plywood and rubbish piling up to high heaven. Not very intelligent if you ask me. Well, not in our current definition of it.

You were saying?

I completely disagree. Plants gave us our consciousness: language, art, reason, intellect, everything. Why else would so many of these entheogenic substances be so similar to Serotonin. Or how DMT plays a huge role in your Circadian Clock. Really think about your theory for a second, and you might see the holes in it. Environment is much, much more than latitude, climate, and diet.

 

That far north, environment obviously also becomes a significant constraint, however arctic people are certainly intelligent and there is plenty of evidence to back that up. In fact the Aleut arctic people have the largest average brain size of 1,518cc (Smith and Beals 1990 based on measurements of approximately 20,000 crania). While having a larger brain than east asians they however have a lower IQ. It's an anomaly as is the fact australian aboriginals have a smaller brain than african bushmen but a higher IQ. Otherwise the pattern is clear. To explain the anomalies we have to consider the genetical principles involved in the evolution of the race differences in intelligence.

Race Winter Temp Wurm Temp Brain Size IQ

Arctic Peoples -15 -20 1,443 91

East Asians -7 -12 1,416 105

Europeans 0 5 1,369 99

Native Americans 7 5 1,366 86

S. Asian & N. Africans 12 7 1,293 84

Bushmen 15 15 1,270 54

Africans 17 17 1,280 67

Australians 17 17 1,225 62

Southeast Asians 24 24 1,332 87

Pacific Islanders 24 24 1,317 85

(Roberts, 1989; Foley, 1987).

The Egyptian pyramids were built by caucasians that had moved into to the lower mediteranean from colder climates. There is no evidence to suggest they were built by tropical adapted people. If you are from england you may even be related to King Tut himself http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFL3E7J135P20110801 . The same with the South American pyramids - all the South American cultures state they received their agricultural and civilization building knowledge from 'white bearded gods from the east' and growing archeaological, linguistic and genetic evidence indicate people of eurasian (cold climate adapted) origin were in the americas long before Columbus arrived. Even if you accepted the political correct version that the american pyramids were built out of a freak 'parallel evolution' in isolation by indigenous native american indians they are still descendants of cold climate adapted arctic siberian people. In historical times people have moved around more rapidly than in the archaic past due to technology (ie boats, then trains and then planes) as I have mentioned before but one cannot escape their environmental and genetic ancestory just by eating some mushrooms and going tripping. Differences evolve as a result of genetic drift, mutations, founder effects, and most important, adaptation to different environments.

The selection pressure for enhanced intelligence acting on the peoples who migrated from tropical and sub-tropical equatorial Africa into North Africa, Asia, Europe, and America was the problem of survival during the winter and spring in temperate and cold climates. This was a new and more cognitively demanding environment because of the need to hunt large animals for food and to keep warm, which required the building of shelters and making fires and clothing. The colder the winters the stronger this selection pressure would have been and the higher the intelligence that evolved. This explains the broad association between latitude or, more precisely, the coldness of winter temperatures and the intelligence of the races. It's no suprise Neanderthals in northern eurasian cold climates developed such big brains and are now finally being recognized for the sophistication they deserve.

'The theory that race differences in intelligence evolved because the peoples who migrated out of Africa into the temperate and cold climates of Asia and Europe entered a more cognitively demanding niche that required greater intelligence is a further instance of the general principle that had operated in the evolution of greater intelligence in mammals when they colonized the nocturnal niche, birds when they colonized the air, monkeys and apes when they became co-operating social animals, (greater intelligence in mammals that entered the ocean niche like whales and dolphins - my addition) and hominids when they adapted to the open savannah. The new niche of the temperate and cold environments colonized by the races that migrated out of Africa demanded an adaptation from a herbivorous to a largely carnivorous life style. The primates from whom humans evolved had lived for a period of approximately 60 million years as herbivores in the tropical and sub-tropical environment of equatorial Africa, in which plant foods are available throughout the year. The hominids that evolved in equatorial East Africa remained largely herbivorous. In contemporary times hunter-gatherer peoples in tropical and subtropical latitudes continue to subsist largely on plant foods, of which numerous species are available throughout the year'. (Lee, 1968; Tooby and de Vore, 1989)

'Plants gave us our consciousness: language, art, reason, intellect, everything.' This is your 'Mckennaish' theory for omnivorous humans? The data suggests the opposite.

Edited September 13, 2011 by botanika

[faustus]

Not very intelligent if you ask me. Well, not in our current definition of it.

yes this is the crux of the matter.

"intelligence is what the intelligence tests test" -- the western conception of it.

I completely disagree. Plants gave us our consciousness: language, art, reason, intellect, everything. Why else would so many of these entheogenic substances be so similar to Serotonin

morphine is structuraly similar to endorphins. therefore opium gave us our conception of pain and analgesia.

THC is structurally similiar to anandamide. therefore cannabis gave us our appetite and forgetfulness... and loss of ambition.

the bible says it's the word of god. therefore it's the word of god.

worst reasoning ever.

Or how DMT plays a huge role in your Circadian Clock.

you and i must be reading different psychopharmacology journals cos i'm completely unfamliar with this one. i know that melatonin certainly plays a role in circadian rhythyms, and that it's a tryptamine structurally similar to DMT, but i'm not famliar with any evidence that DMT does.

can you offer some non-joe rogan-based references please?

Really think about your theory for a second, and you might see the holes in it

and you, yours

[incognito]

Its not uncommon that frequent trippers see themselves as smarter or in someway elite to society. This often seems to be a result of the use pf psychs rather than an actual higher intelligence

i couldnt have said it better myself sapito. i think its the most putrid stench that permeates the psychadelic community.

these same "smarter, more switched on, more connected" people are the same people that are soon crashing and burning in a most pathetic of fashion. i know, ive been one ;)

i wouldnt say a result of psych use though, more a personality one. it seems sometimes , at the beginning of ones entrance into the realms of psychadelia, instead of ego destruction, the reverse occurs, an ego inflation. you are the chosen one, you are SPECIAL. however it should be maintained that of course, no more than the next person, nay organism. i mean any pelican can make a brew, do an extraction and be stupid enough to down a foul smelling and tasting substance. its not rocket science. i mean u dont have to be einstein to do what people here do.

at the moment i really struggle with this particular breed of psychonaught. id say its because i see my own reflection of course from times past. i really can only trip with well grounded, humble individuals. glad ive got the nangar crew and villagers

i really do think that to consider yourself smarter than someone else or that you have more of an idea of just what the hell is going around you than the next person is unto itself, a very very stupid assumption.

Edited September 13, 2011 by incognito

[Roopey]

yes this is the crux of the matter.

"intelligence is what the intelligence tests test" -- the western conception of it.

Well, considering this is a topic on intelligence, me using the word, a general sense, is really my only option isn't it. I personally have a completely different definition for intelligence than most people. In fact, I change the definitions of a lot of words when I feel like the dictionary definition is stifling in any way (which most of them are.) When talking to people though, I still need to use words with generally accepted definitions. If you disagree, I apologize.

morphine is structuraly similar to endorphins. therefore opium gave us our conception of pain and analgesia.

THC is structurally similiar to anandamide. therefore cannabis gave us our appetite and forgetfulness... and loss of ambition.

the bible says it's the word of god. therefore it's the word of god.

worst reasoning ever.

I'm sorry, but none of the reasoning in any of those examples matched the reasoning from mine. But I can rephrase my statements if you like.

We are talking about genes and the chemicals in our bodies and evolution, things that no man truly understand, at least not to my knowledge. Their are many a theory on the matter, but what has been "proven" is really nothing at all.

So, in this land of theoretical hyberboles, I ask you, who is right and who is wrong? I have an opinion, an opinion that is not common I know, but an opinion never-the-less. Plants have given me so much, and they have shown me how one can build a relationship with one's environment in a way that is both harmonious and constructive, as I am sure they have done so for many people alive today, and millions upon billions in the past. Humans, not so long ago, weren't so disconnected from the environment around them. There used to be a time when we were immersed in the natural world, and she taught us everything.

So do I think that opiates taught us pain and relief? In a way, yes. I think it had a vital role in the development of, and mantaining the health of, endorphines.

Do I think marijuana has taught the human race to sustain energy levels and work through their emotions? Of course it played it's role.

Do I think that DMT, Psilocybin, and the like taught us how to dream and imagine? Well, yeah, of course they played a role in the development of these crucial human traits.

There are also many plants that are our teachers, that you wouldn't normally think about, but every fruit and vegetable you eat, feeds your body, your mind, and your soul.

you and i must be reading different psychopharmacology journals cos i'm completely unfamliar with this one. i know that melatonin certainly plays a role in circadian rhythyms, and that it's a tryptamine structurally similar to DMT, but i'm not famliar with any evidence that DMT does.

can you offer some non-joe rogan-based references please?

Now this I was misremembering. You are right, Melatonin is what runs the Clock, and yes, I do feel that the Indoles had a role to play in the development in this.

and you, yours

 

Doesn't everyones? One perspective is very limiting.

[tipz]

Everyone is a Genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

Albert Einstein