Why cacti are singled out?

[Bretloth]

I'll put this to all mods etc. Why are discussions about cactus potency, alkaloids, entheogenic use etc etc singled out and not allowed, when every other type of plant and their use is not? I realise we all want to keep these plants legal, but that arguement falls down in the context of every other plant being discussed as such here. I dont get the distinction. Not meaning to piss anyone off, I'm just curious. And i'm sure there are others wondering the same thing.

From my perspective I think the development of a tradition of entheogenic use may very well be the only way to keep them legal. In a freedom of religeon sense, ones case would be much stronger if the tradition had a local context to draw upon in my opinion.

Anywho! Taker easy

[ballzac]

I would guess it has to do with the fact that cacti are most likely next on the list, coupled with the conspicuousness of them. Even though actual identification of cacti is not going to be any easier than identifying any other plants for police officers to do, a large cactus collection will be a big red flag to the authorities if they become illegal, whereas a couple of khat trees, an ipomoea vine, and perhaps even a few papavers, will go mostly unnoticed. Hence, I feel it is more important to keep the cacti legal. It will also be easier for them to all but wipe out cacti. If they destroy a collection every time they make an arrest, that could be half a century of care that goes down the drain in the blink of an eye, whereas a lot of other plant can be grown to full size in a few months.

[Bretloth]

That makes sense. Fair enough! Thanks for the reply

[Quill]

I don't think that "cacti are singled out"

Mescaline is illegal, DMT is illegal, any reported alk content, or alk percentage implies illegal activity and thus breaks forum rules.

[Evil Genius]

Hi Brethloth, i know you dont mean no harm but i cant believe you opened up another topic to talk about mescaline and ingestion. Its the third today, btw. You really need to get that posting behaviour under control or i´ll give you a timeout for your own protection. There was no need to open up this thread. Or the second one after we have been messaging for the whole day because of the previous issues. We have posted the reasons for our rules many many times and PD even pinned them back then. You could have found that info very easily if you´d just looked.

From my perspective I think the development of a tradition of entheogenic use may very well be the only way to keep them legal

I fail to understand how that would work. Did you actually follow any of the recent events concerning Lophs in Queensland for example? If you dont know that there is substantial risk that some of the states completely outlaw them one day, you should take a close look at the Thread called IMPORTANT LEGAL INFO now. Have you followed the past ten years in regard to what laws have been created to outlaw plants and seeds? Kratom? Salvia? Even Bongs and pipes? What do you plan to tell to the Authorities if they should decide to outlaw Lophs completely? That you need them to practise your religion because you and your tribe used it for centuries to talk to your god? Well good luck with that.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Bretloth]

Actually in the id post I just asked if that specific cactus had entheogenic value, imply what you like, will never be evidence of a thing. Second was in chill space just sharing something I found interesting. This is asking what it is asking. Dont read anymore into it. Paranoi that way lies... Delete it if you want, it's your site.

[Evil Genius]

Delete it if you want, it's your site.

No its not, its Torstens. Its not even in a forum i moderate. Its just that all the moderating i did today had to do with you and im sick of it because we´ve been discussing this via pm as well. The Rules arent there because we like moderating so much. Thats nothing but pure self-protection. Ever thought about what could potentially happen to a grower who has the greenhouse full of Lophs when authorities would outlaw them? Jailtime for a cactus? In nowadays political climate, its definately imaginable. Please, for your own safety and for also the ethnobotanical scene, accept it like it is.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Gunter]

We are allowed to discuss scientific aspects of the cacti right? Like publications and work etc.

I think that this forum walks a fine line rather well, but honestly the level of ignorance that Oz authorities have and their willingness to persecute and harm people for harmless and even productive interests is a very scary thing. This reminds me, I had something I wanted to post a link to in cacti...

[Evil Genius]

Hi Archaea, like i just posted in the Thread you posted, it´s alright with the rules to link to scientific papers and such. But please dont discuss anything in regard to potency, ingestion and alkaloid content. Thanks. The Study is definately interesting. bye Eg

[shortly]

From my perspective I think the development of a tradition of entheogenic use may very well be the only way to keep them legal.

In all honesty the only way we will get to keep cacti is if we promote their values & uses other than anything even remotely drug related.

The powers that be couldn't give a rodents rectum about minor religious groups or collectors & above all they need easy targets to get & keep their stats up so they can continue to ask for bigger budgets

[Bretloth]

Just for some perspective here, my 1st post was an id request, when given an id I had not heard of before I merely asked if it had entheogenic value, not a crime, not asking about potency or anything other that you may or may not imply. Second my post in chill space was labelled a made up story, again, not evidence of anything other than I wrote what I claimed to be a made up story, imply or more correctly project your own missunderstanding all you like. I never intended to break any rules and still do not think that I did. You think that, so out of respect I changed the 1st post, out of your idea of what was happeneing, which we obviously disagree about, you deleted the chill space story. I followed the rules as I understood them and as others here had used them. Should I have said my gnomes swims elfs cat or something like so many others have?? Here I merely am asking a question, why take it personal? (Rhetorical) The question was to all mods.. I've actually been through the legal system many times for many things in real life, not some imaginary maybe, even was married to a criminal lawyer for a time, and I assure you nothing I said was self incrimminating, and I don't need you to protect me, least of all from myself, when respecting your rules. I take responsibility for own actions. I've been to jail before for my beliefs and may have to again one day, not something that worries me, I guess you have to have spent an extended period of time in jail to know, that the 'outside' can be exactly the same as 'inside' if you let it.. Reminds me of Orwells thought crime to be honest. It has been made ubundantly clear to me that I cannot talk about the entheogenic, or SHAMANIC use of these plants on the SHAMAN AUSTRALIS forum. If I have to go to court again for growing a plant for my own spiritual use, I will be using this site as evidence of a modern cultural tradition locally for SHAMANISM. Because that is a fact. I could find a ton of threads that prove my points, you probably could do the same, at the end of the day none of it really matters that much, as such I've said all I care to on this subject. Others can pick this thread up and continue it, I wont jump down anyones throat for speaking their mind. I apoligize if any takes offense, not my intent. Was just asking fucking questions and sharing a story about something we are all interested in here. NOTHING MORE, but of course I was high as shit yesterday, on life and holotropic breathing . Peace.

[Bush Turkey]

haha whoops wrong thread

Edited August 30, 2011 by Bush Turkey

[tipz]

My take is it is Just as much to protect the integrity of the forums and not too create the illusion all of us cacti collectors being interested in entheogenic plants only. But as passionate cacti collecters of all the plants of the kingdom.

Its obviously a touchy subject with the current political climate and more care needs to be taken in the content of posts than was needed all those years ago.

I analyse all posts before hitting enter to make sure it is well within the rules and dont wish to push the boundaries.

There are many other sites ( international ones especially where the information you were eluding too can still be found and discussed openly )

quote " I will be using this site as evidence of a modern cultural tradition locally for SHAMANISM. Because that is a fact. I could find a ton of threads that prove my points "

: I dont have a criminal record and want to keep it that way and the possible ramifications ( to my albeit semi-ignorant knowledge of the laws ) to the community or individual members makes me feel uneasy.

Dont take it personal champ, you seem like a good bloke brettloth, really ! You just have to look at the bigger picture and maybe consider the possible domino effects that can occur.

I hope for your sake that another stint behind bars does not occur for you, and discretion is probably one of the best ways to avoid it from happening.

Peace !!

Edited August 30, 2011 by tipz

[Evil Genius]

Brethloth, i dont want to argue with you. I have been very patient and also helpful in our private messages and i dont see the need to make this any worse as it already is. The first ID post was absolutely no problem. The second post was. If you really think that using "a gnome" to decode a text that was not only self incriminating but also totally against the rules i told you about only minutes before, will protect you from persecution then you should maybe ask a paid lawyer about it to get your facts straight. Also the Chill space forum was completely the wrong forum to post it in. In fact, i was protecting you from posting a thread that could bring you in serious trouble. So instead of creating another Thread about an issue that we discussed two years ago, you should thank me for taking it down in time. I dont know you and i really think that your enthusiasm is a sign of youth and willingness to change things for the better. Maybe there are other ways to use your energy. The only reasons for the strict rules are that we need to change our behaviour to keep the plants we love legal in the future. Times have changed, the internet is not the safe haven it was ten years ago. Governments and authorities integrated the internet in their daily schedule and started to use it against us. And its not only about the Ethnobotanical scene. We have the responsibility not to fuck it up for all the cactus growers all across the world. Lophs are close to extinction in their natural habitats and the commercial growers are one of the very few reasons some of those plants still exist. A ban on Lophs could pretty much be a Death Sentence for the survival of the whole Genus. Ethnobotanists are one of the very few last resorts those endangered plants have and If you take away that, they´ll be extinct in another 100 years. You think a government gives a shit about religion and ancient cultures when it has to do with "drugs"? Just take a look at the history of mankind and how they terminated all kind of plants, only because of ignorance and greed. And Cacti dont even have a Lobby. They couldnt care less about another extinct species.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Evil Genius