Coleus blumei

[planthelper]

P.S; Would be happy to donate a bunch of herbage to anyone who kicks ass at extractions and wants to give it a go, see what a 20 X does. Let me know.

 

i think this was suggested before, but nobody ever reported any such thing.

but if there is any activety, than it ought to be possible to concentrate the very same, quite easely.

we don't know the solubileties, so an aceton extraction would be first choice.

if the aceton pulls a lot of unwanted gunk, one could try to clean it, via orb's methode (northern gnome's sally tek).

Edited November 28, 2011 by planthelper

[phyllode]

It may interest some that Plectranthus forskohlii (formerly Coleus forskholii, synon. Plectranthus barbatus) contains Forskolin, a diterpene reputed to be psychoactive in a similar way to those found in Salvia d. ("Garden Of Eden" S. Vooogelbreinder 2009 p.135).

Several similar diterpenes were isolated from Coleus blumei (Plectranthus blumei) by Ragas et al. 2000 ("Diastereomeric diterpenes from Coleus blumei", Chem Pharm Bulletin).

It also contains Scutellarein (6-OH-apigenin) which is of possible pharmacological activity interest (MAO transporter activation). Gruber (1997) looked for but found no diterpenes in the plant, so this is direct evidence of chemical variability in C. blumei.

Edited November 28, 2011 by phyllode

[Gunter]

regarding coleus blumei what diterpenoids have been reported in what concentrations?

[PowerfulMedicine]

It may interest some that Plectranthus forskohlii (formerly Coleus forskholii, synon. Plectranthus barbatus) contains Forskolin, a diterpene reputed to be psychoactive in a similar way to those found in Salvia d. ("Garden Of Eden" S. Vooogelbreinder 2009 p.135).

Several similar diterpenes were isolated from Coleus blumei (Plectranthus blumei) by Ragas et al. 2000 ("Diastereomeric diterpenes from Coleus blumei", Chem Pharm Bulletin).

It also contains Scutellarein (6-OH-apigenin) which is of possible pharmacological activity interest (MAO transporter activation). Gruber (1997) looked for but found no diterpenes in the plant, so this is direct evidence of chemical variability in C. blumei.

 

It should be pretty easy to determine if forskolin is indeed psychoactive since it can be easily obtained in a concentrated and purified form as a supplement. I will try this soon, but it would be nice to know how much forskolin was found to be in coleus blumei in order to gauge how much of the supplement would be necessary to possibly replicate my previous coleus experiences. I doubt that it could be psychoactive in the way that salvia is though.

Scutellarein is also another interesting compound. It is one of the main compounds responsible for the sedative and other medicinal effects of skullcap. I was unaware that this compound was closely related to apigenin. Apigenin is a sedative, anxiolytic with known NMDA antagonist properties. Many but not all NMDA antagonists fall into the class of dissociative psychedelics. Apigenin is also the compound proposed to be responsible for some of the reported "psychedelic" effects of chamomile as I mentioned earlier. I knew that I wouldn't be sorry about bringing that up earlier.

I can't say for sure that Scutellarein (6-OH-apigenin) is also an NMDA antagonist, but it would not be a surprise if it was. Then there is the possibility that scutellarein is broken down into apigenin and that the apigenin plays a part in the mildly mind expanding effects of coleus.

The presence of scutellarein and rosmarinic acid means that coleus should definitely be sedative when ingested orally. But from what i know, these two compounds have sedative actions when smoked. I know skullcap has sedative action when smoked from experience. I have also heard that rosemary is sedative when smoked due to the presence of rosmarinic acid among other things. So either these compounds break down during pyrolization and are not actually responsible for the sedative effects of smoking things like skullcap, or the stimulant effects reported by Mutant when mixed with cannabis are due to some other compounds and/or synergy.

[Gunter]

rosmarinic acid has a melting point of 171-175 °C

Rosmarinic acid can break down to caffeic acid

caffeic acid has a melting point of 223-225 °C

Caffeic acid has been found as a component of tobacco smoke, it is likely to be present in smoke from coleus

rosmarinic acid is noted to result in both sedative and stimulative effects, not merely sedative

What is the reference that Vooogelbreinder gives for the Forskolin being psychoactive?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Gunter

[PowerfulMedicine]

rosmarinic acid is noted to result in both sedative and stimulative effects, not merely sedative

 

What do you mean by stimulative? Do you mean stimulant like the way caffeine is or do you mean stimulant in the sense that old school herbalism uses the term. In herbalism stimulant can mean that it stimulates something in the body to occur, like digestion or healing or almost anything. The herbalism definition of stimulant is pretty vague.

[Gunter]

not stimulant like caffeine, more like neurostimulant

[phyllode]

Gunter wrote:

regarding coleus blumei what diterpenoids have been reported in what concentrations?

From the paper:

Previous studies on C. blumei reported the isolation of flavonoids and coleon O, an abietane type diterpenoid, from the plant.

Coleus blumei was collected from Ilo-ilo, Philippines in November 1996. It was identified as Coleus blumei BENTH (Labiatae) at the Philippine National Museum, and a voucher specimen DLSUCD #028 is kept at the Chemistry Department of De La Salle University.

Extraction and Isolation: Air-dried leaves of Coleus blumei (600 g) were ground in an osterizer, then extracted with CHCl3 (2.5 l) at room temperature for 2 d. The mixture was filtered and the filtrate concentrated in vacuo to afford a crude extract (40 g).This extract was dissolved in EtOH (750 ml), then placed in an ice bath.

To the solution was added 4% aqueous Pb(OAc)2 to precipitate the more polar components.

The mixture was thenfiltered and the filtrate concentrated in vacuo until a mixture of water and oily residue remained. The concentrate was extracted with CHCl3, and the extract was dried with anhydrous Na2SO4, then filtered. The filtrate was concentrated in vacuo to afford the treated extract (11.7 g), which was fractionated in a column of

silica gel (70—230 mesh) using increasing proportions of Me2CO in CHCl3 (10% increments, 100 ml) as eluents. The CHCl3 fraction was rechromatographed in 10% Me2 CO in CHCl3

(23), followed by rechromatography in CH2Cl2: CH3CN : Et2O (18 : 1 : 1) to afford 1 (yellow ish oil, 15 mg).

This compound was not named, only structurally characterised and given a reference number. Remember some diterpenes are active in the microgram range.

Forskolin from C. forskohlii is a potent inotropic, antihypertensive, platelet aggregation inhibitor and adenylate cyclease stimulant.

Edited November 29, 2011 by phyllode

[Gunter]

600g dry coleus gave 15mg of an oil

so if this is typical 100 g coleus should have 2.5 mg?

50g a bit over 1mg?

100 g coleus would yield up to 6g rosmarinic acid also

What ref was in Snus book for Forskolin?

Is there are list of active diterpenoids?

Diterpenoids are very common molecules found in lots of plants.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Gunter

[zelly]

What is the reference that Vooogelbreinder gives for the Forskolin being psychoactive?

What ref was in Snus book for Forskolin?

Gunter, do you mean to tell us you do not have Snu's book?

If you did, you could turn to page 135 and have the answers to all of your questions, plus a whole lot more.

[Gunter]

I don't have it.

I was hoping the person who provided it as an example of an active diterpene was willing to do so.

I guess i will have to try a friend who has it.

[phyllode]

Voogelbreinder's source is Valdes (of salvia fame) personal comm.

If the unnamed diterpene in Coleus blumei was as active as salvinorin a, b or c, then only 1mg would produce very strong effects. There is (as mentioned by Ragas et al.) another diterpene (coleon O), I don't know the amounts. While rosmaric acid may be involved, I think this plant is more complex. Add Scuttelarein, and there are possible synergies. The understanding of diterpene receptor activity is barely a decade old.

[Gunter]

Voogelbreinder's source is Valdes (of salvia fame) personal comm.

 

What is the actual reference?

Does it have a year or publication name?

if forskolin was as active as salvinorin B, wouldn't it be inactive?

Edited November 30, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

Oh, sorry I meant 2-Methoxymethyl salvinorin B! But thanks for pointing that out. There are two PHD thesis papers on quite a few new and active diterpenes. When I have time I will link them, but you should be able to google them, or some of the information in them.

My points are general, and part of an enthusiastic look at possible active components in different varieties of C. blumei. Not a detailed analysis of every point made.

Personally I'm not finding rosmarinic acid that exciting.

You will have to ask Voogelbreinder and Valdes personally about the forskolin activity.

Edited November 30, 2011 by phyllode

[zelly]

here is some of what Snu has to say about C. forskohlii :

C. forskohlii tubers have yielded c.0.1-0.3% [c.0.05% in whole plant] of the diterpene forskolin [coleonol], which has spasmodic,bronchodilating,cerebral-vasodilating, hypotensive, and cardiac activity. It lowers intraocular pressure, inhibits platelet aggregation and activates the enzyme adenylate cyclase, causing increased thryoid secretion, adrenal steroid synthesis, and adrenocorticotropin release from pituitary (Ammon & Muller 1985;Bone 1996; Valdez et al 1987b). Forskolin is reputed to be psychoactive, in a similar way to other diterpenoids found in Salvia and Scutellaria (friendly, pers. comm.)

The friendly personal comment regarding the psychoactivity is solely from the author (Snu).

He also has a personal comment regarding the psychoactivity of C. blumei.

Myself, and some others, have had definite psychoactive results..........Effects were much milder than those of Salvia divinorum, though I felt strongly 'stoned' for at least 30 minutes (pers. comms.; pers. obs.)

[Gunter]

thank you for the information,

so there is a claim, but no account, dose or method given?

Interesting about the coleus.

Rosmarinic acid seems to correlate to a mild stoned feeling rather well.

I'd love to see a report of forskolin or coleus that is like Salvinorin or Salvia.

Ego loss?

As is the case with Salvinorin B, a lot of diterpenes seem to lack activity comparable to Salvinorin A...

Edited November 30, 2011 by Gunter

[phyllode]

Is there a high dose rosmarinic acid report somewhere I can read? What is it's safety? What are the largest amounts that have been taken, and how can something be 'sedative' and 'stimulant'? After 10 minutes googling I can't find any scientific 'psychoactivity' descriptions, only physiological ones (anti-oxidant etc)

Needs a better description of effects, as does coleus blumei generally.

In the mid 90s I ate 22 salvia d leaves, and found the effects very mild. Similar, at the time, to other Lamiaceae. It was only through repeated and determined attempts, due to others' reports (no so many at the time), that

profound effects were eventually experienced.

Edited November 30, 2011 by phyllode

[zelly]

so there is a claim, but no account, dose or method given?

i was too lazy to type it all out.....but....

Most experiments have centered on C. blumei, which exists in many horticultural forms, and may be expected to exist in many chemical races. Also the mode of administration may have been inappropriate in some instances, as the leaves do not seem to be noticeably active via the oral route. They may show activity with sublingual administration (keep 1 or more large, thoroughly chewed leaves under the tongue for 20-30 minutes), or with smoking. Myself & others have had definite psychoactive results. My single experiment involved smoking a dried alcohol extract, which had been evaporated onto a small amount of the original leaf as a binder. The solution had been left for 3 days with occasional shaking; the amount of dried extract smoked was the size of a small pea. Effects were much milder than those of Salvia divinorum, though I felt strongly 'stoned' for at least 30 minutes (pers comm,; pers. obs.).

seriously Gunter, if ever there was one single book you should own, it would be Snu's Garden of Eden.

[PowerfulMedicine]

^Zelly, those excerpts are pretty interesting. Maybe Snu didn't get any effects from oral administration because he used leaves that were not fresh enough. I have always used the leaves within three hours of picking them from the plant.

The stoned feeling that Snu mentioned from smoking the extract might be due to rosmarinic acid, but I would think that it is more likely to be from scutellarein. High potency species of skullcap are known to have quite strong effects and many accounts say that species like Scutellaria nana rival cannabis in their ability to cause stoning and spacing out type of effects.

Snu also says that forskolin has similar effects to salvia and scutellaria diterpenoids, but not specifically Salvia divinorum. These diterpenoids are usually sedative and anxyolytic, so I would then guess that forskolin should have at least a sedative component to its effects.

An extract of coleus should contain a somewhat significant amount of rosmarinic acid, scutellarein, and forskolin given that the right variety is used to make the extract.

Edited November 30, 2011 by PowerfulMedicine

[Gunter]

Is there a high dose rosmarinic acid report somewhere I can read? What is it's safety? What are the largest amounts that have been taken, and how can something be 'sedative' and 'stimulant'? After 10 minutes googling I can't find any scientific 'psychoactivity' descriptions, only physiological ones (anti-oxidant etc)

Needs a better description of effects, as does coleus blumei generally.

 

on my first google search a i found a lot of the answers to these questions, but it strikes me that one of the first things to check is the wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosmarinic_acid

It is also a potential anxiolytic as it acts as a GABA transaminase inhibitor.

I cannot find high dose trials other than in mice, where 8mg/kg was the high dose

if you read the patents it is clear that PM's tea method works very well to obtain RA, so his accounts clearly involve a sizable dose of RA.

As for something being both sedative and stimulant, that is basic pharmacology and i am not going to educate you about that, but the world is loaded with examples of this. This is common for things like RA that are also called hypnotic, the body can be calmed and the mind stimulated, some forms of cannabis are also known for this. With RA, hypnotic, anxiolytic and sedative effects are noted without any loss of coordination or diminished mental activity.

Anxiolytic is the exact same word used to describe not only the effects of Rosmarinic acid, but also of Skullcap. Their actions should not be totally different. but skullcaps effects are believed by many to be due to wogonin, known to interact with GABA

But then when the effects described by Snu are like this:

Snu also says that forskolin has similar effects to salvia and scutellaria diterpenoids, but not specifically Salvia divinorum. These diterpenoids are usually sedative and anxyolytic, so I would then guess that forskolin should have at least a sedative component to its effects.

Consider then that Rosmarinic acid is described as sedative and anxiolytic in numerous studies... the same action as being described for extracts of plants being employed by Snu... he clearly didn't purify the diterpenes, he employed an extraction that would concentrate RA and reported effects a lot like RA, it simply has not been ruled out.

Zelly, i thumbed through a friends copy of Garden Of Eden, but found it wasn't my cup of tea, for example this whole coleus mess, and other speculations about things that have not been analyzed. Maybe a later revision will have a better standard? It is hard to see it as more than food for thought, for example it does not seem to be a good reference work, but it a nice speculative work.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Gunter

[planthelper]

Aqueous solutions of diterpenes such as Forskolin, its congeners, analogs and derivatives, up to approximately 6% concentration, are prepared using suitably substituted cyclodextrin as a solubilizing agents. In the absence of cyclodextrin, some diterpenes such as Forskolin are soluble in water only to concentrations of about 0.001%. Such aqueous solutions find applications in topical and systemic use, as pharmaceutical, cosmeceutical, nutraceutical preparations containing diterpenes such as Forskolin and congeners.

from this site:

http://osdir.com/patents/Liquid-purification/Process-preparing-water-soluble-diterpenes-applications-06960300.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclodextrin

[PowerfulMedicine]

Aqueous solutions of diterpenes such as Forskolin, its congeners, analogs and derivatives, up to approximately 6% concentration, are prepared using suitably substituted cyclodextrin as a solubilizing agents. In the absence of cyclodextrin, some diterpenes such as Forskolin are soluble in water only to concentrations of about 0.001%.

 

This might explain why such a large amount of leaves and water is needed to make the tea effective. Any of the actives that are diterpenes are likely to be in low concentrations. The low solubility also means that eating the leaves may only modestly increase the effects of the tea.

This suggests that quidding may be the most effecting route of administration since solubility is less of an issue for quidding. The one time that I quidded the leaves it did seem to take less leaves to feel the sedation, but I would have to try it again to be sure.

Hey Gunter do have any info on the solubility of rosmarinic acid in water? I am trying to figure out how much rosmarinic acid would be present with the preparation I use for the coleus tea. I have only been able to find one thing saying that it is 15mg/ml but the source is not the most reliable and I don't think that this is accurate. Wikipedia says it is only slightly soluble in water.

[planthelper]

would be nice to think, that saliva contains enzymes or other stuff which aids aswell solubilety.

with some things in chemistry, one can simplyfy a lot, im thinking of extracting some fresh sourdough bread, in water, filter the water, and use this as additive, when trying to produce a macerated drink.

when i worked with heimia and sceletium, and probably other materials, i sometimes though, that airborne bacteria can aid an extraction or preparation process.

kefir is used aswell, with some materials, but i don't remeber which.

maybe coleus would be best prepared, in a similar fashion as traditional kava, hehehe.

so is there a chance, to work a, diy (bread extraction) obtaining cyclodextrin?

could a chemist comment??

[ubza_1234]

surely there is a suitable solvent to extract it with? Be alot easier to start with a crude extract then plant matter. I dare say dry acetone would be a good starting point.

this extract would be, thoroughly filtered, completely dried, powdered, and the powder dissolved in hot water. The solution would be placed in the fridge. anything insoluble in water should settle, because it would either percip out, or would not dissolve in the first place. This could simply be filtered with ultra fine filter.

In theory

[planthelper]

i don't think aceton would be my choice, if i want to use the material sublingual.

if you pyrolise go with aceton,

if you sublingual, use white spirit or vodka.

if you dislike solvents, use water.