Heimia for alcohol withdrawals

[Auxin]

With how Heimia has helped several people here with benzo addictions I thought this would be a good development to get some conversation going on. It appears to have some usefulness in helping with alcohol too, or at least I have been in contact with one individual who it has helped. Heres what he has to say about use of smoked fermentation-dried Heimia herb during alcohol withdrawals:

When I first heard of using Heimia salicfolia for alcohol withdrawals I was extremely skeptical,

"How could there be any help for alcohol withdrawals (DTS) that isn't a benzo and yet I have never heard of this before in my life" I was thinking to myself...

A stranger at that time, from a forum I am apart of offered to send me some for free, and even pay shipping charges, I was literally taken back by this strangers caring nature, having nothing left to lose, and everything to gain I was happy to accept, doubtful but happy none the less.

This has seriously helped me out more then, many people could ever imagine, as not only did it help ease my DTS if not take it away completely it has also been a major help with my arthritis in my lower back, and helped me out with my anxiety, and placed me into a pure europhoric state of mind, without being totally messed up as you may feel on other entheogens.

To sum this up, I would really like to take a moment to Thank Auxin again for his wonderful help, and reccomend this to anyone going through alcohol withdrawals or even arthritis.

And a few days prior to that...

I absolutely adore this plant

1.) Suffering from Anxiety, absolutely sucks! however, after smoking a bowl or two I must say that I'm not as anxious out in public as I used to be, actually quite friendly and talkative.

2.) I'm not sure if you are familiar with the effects of withdrawals from alcohol, but I can tell you that they are absolutely horrible! This has really helped me out quite a bit.

3.) I feel taller, and more able to do things, due to it's anti-inflammatory properties which is truly amazing for those who suffer with arthritis.

Please keep in mind, that this is how it has effected me, and yes everyone is different perhaps we can find other members to share their experiences with this beautiful plant?

It sounds promising to me.

Has anyone else had any experience with Heimia during alcohol withdrawals?

Anyone gonna now give it a go? Please post results here

[CβL]

http://www.shaman-australis.com/~auxin/heimia.html

This appears to be your work (Awesome!). Do you think that one of these alkaloids might just be GABAergic, or do you think it's a different mechanism?

[Auxin]

That thought has occurred to me, it would seem to fit with how heimia lessens the withdrawals from benzodiazapines and alcohol and may be connected to the tranquilizer and muscle relaxant effects. Tho most GABAergics that do all that tend to have side effects like addiction, drug-seeking behavior patterns, and drug tolerance but those all seem to be absent from how heimia works in people. Also, GABAergics tend to distinctly potentiate each other whereas I've never heard of heimia remarkably potentiating alcohol, benzos, etc.

We can guess all day but we wont really know until some heavy duty science is done. Or at least some incredibly well planned and systematic amateur science.

We dont really even know its the alkaloids, that is just a guess left over from the era when they thought all such drugs had to be alkaloids. Its true sinicuichine was remarked as having experimental tranquilizer effects but that doesnt mean its the only such critter in the plant.

[CβL]

Very true. But how long have these people been using Heimia?

And also, assuming that there is some truth to these:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60642

and

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=72508

and

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60354

Then (after some reading), it looks like a lot of those adverse symptoms (from those and other heimia experiences):

-muscle pain and stiffness

-paralysis

-difficulty breathing

-light-headedness (sounds like low blood pressure)

-nausea

-vomiting

-dry mouth

-fever

-bradycardia (maybe there was tachycardia too, but no-one reported it)

correlate somewhat with side-effects of neuromuscular-blocking drugs [NMBA] (possibly along with at least histamine release):

http://www.drugs.com/mmx/neuromuscular-blocking-agents.html#footnotef00145817

If http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=182&z=6 is the necessary preparation, then as has been surmised before: maybe the UV from the sunlight fermentation process decomposes whatever compound(s) causes the adverse effects, into something more benign. The auditory hallucinations seem to be present even if the correct preparation is not performed (although these experimenters all had dried leaves/extracts, reflecting at least some degree of decomposition). So if the sunlight preparation is only to make it more benign, then maybe whatever provides those auditory hallucinations can be extracted instead (assuming that it was not created just by drying the leaves or extraction). Lastly, the molecular structure for many of the Heimia alkaloids look similar to that of many NMBA drugs.

So I think that unprepared Heimia may have an NMBA in it, and that fermentation will decompose it.

Treatment of overdose [of NMBA]

Specific treatment:

Administering anticholinesterase agents, such as edrophonium, neostigmine, or pyridostigmine, to antagonize the action of the nondepolarizing neuromuscular blocking agents. It is recommended that atropine or another suitable anticholinergic agent be administered prior to or concurrently with the antagonist to counteract its cholinergic side effects.

The depolarization block produced by succinylcholine is not antagonized by anticholinesterase agents such as edrophonium, neostigmine, and pyridostigmine. However, if succinylcholine has been administered over a prolonged period of time and the characteristic depolarization block has gradually changed to a nondepolarization block, as determined with a peripheral nerve stimulator, small doses of the anticholinesterase agent may be tried as an antagonist. If an anticholinesterase agent is used as an antagonist, it is recommended that atropine be administered prior to or concurrently with the antagonist to counteract its cholinergic side effects. Patients should be closely observed for at least 1 hour after reversal of nondepolarization block for possible return of muscle relaxation.

The antagonists are merely adjuncts to, and are not to be substituted for, the institution of measures to ensure adequate ventilation. Ventilatory assistance must be continued until the patient can maintain an adequate ventilatory exchange unassisted.

So maybe by using one of those anticholinesterase agents (in a clinical setting), it could be determined if Heimia (improperly prepared) contains a strong non-depolarizing NMBA. Also, I didn't see if there was ever an alkaloid composition study done on fermented material. It would surely become apparent what the fermentation does then. Then the alkaloid(s) which increases in abundance could be studied to see if it causes the relaxing effects. The alkaloid(s) which decrease in abundance could be tested for NMBA effects to see if they are indeed decomposed.

Furthermore from http://www.pedneur.com/article/S0887-8994%2806%2900082-8/abstract:

Carbamazepine-Induced Transient Auditory Pitch-Perception Deficit

Akihiko Tateno, MDCorresponding Author Informationemail address, Ken Sawada, MD, Ikuko Takahashi, MD, Yukari Hujiwara, MD

This report presents six cases of transient auditory disturbance caused by carbamazepine, with a particular focus on pitch-perception deficit. Basic disorders in the six cases included epilepsy (cryptogenic localization–related epilepsy and benign childhood epilepsy) and glossopharyngeal neuralgia. Since 1993, in which we reported the first description of transient pitch-perception deficit associated with carbamazepine, a further 26 cases have been reported. However, this carbamazepine-induced transient pitch-perception deficit may be more frequent than previously suspected. Moreover, because auditory disturbance occurs at therapeutic serum levels of carbamazepine, patient awareness of reversible hearing impairment on initiating carbamazepine therapy is important.

Wikipedia (presumably from the referenced studies) notes that many people do not notice a pitch shift, and some people report a pitch increase. I would prefer if the people who reported a higher pitch were simply wrong, because it would be more consistent . If so many people don't even notice the pitch shift, then what does that say about the credibility of a perceived pitch increase? And also, I would not be surprised if the pitch shift itself could be modulated again by more medicines (which, wikipedia says CBZ has a high potential for drug interactions). But anyway - all speculation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16181754

Carbamazepine induced pitch shift and octave space representation.

Braun M, Chaloupka V.

Octave-circular pitch perception, the repetition of pitch scale qualities when surpassing the octave interval, has been observed in behavioral data from humans and monkeys, but the underlying anatomy and physiology is still unknown. Here we analyze octave circularity in a concert pianist with absolute pitch, both under medication with the neurotropic drug carbamazepine (CBZ) and without medication. Analysis of 4619 responses in a pitch identification task revealed an internal tone-scale representation, based on the norm-tone scale re A4=440 Hz, with an octave-circular pattern of strongly and weakly represented tones. CBZ caused a global down-shift of pitch (ca. 1 semitone at 500 Hz), but no down-shift of the octave-circular pattern of tone characteristics. This pattern was similar in the six tested octave ranges (32.7-2093 Hz), both under the control and the CBZ condition. Pattern repetition always occurred at octave intervals and did not reflect the stretched octaves of piano tuning. The results indicate that CBZ influences pitch detection peripheral of an octave-circular pitch representation. Thus they support previous evidence for pitch detection in the auditory midbrain and for octave-circular pitch mapping in the auditory thalamus.

...In the case of KR we now see that at least one frequency representation appears to deviate

sharply from this pattern. Her responses indicate a neural representation of tones, in which scale-step characteristics

repeat after each octave (see Fig. 5). When CBZ is taken, this pattern of tone representation remains unchanged,

the only difference being that it is now elicited by higher frequencies, which is observed as a global down-shift.

Because CBZ does not affect the tone-scale representation itself but only its input, we can assume that the drug

probably shifts frequency filtering peripheral of the tonescale representation. A shift in the cochlea, however, seems

highly unlikely, because it would also affect the timbre perception of musical tones. As seen in Fig. 2, the CBZ effect

increases sharply with increasing frequency. So, a total spectral frequency shift in the cochlea would mean that

the harmonics of a periodic sound would be increasingly shifted with rising harmonic number, thus making the perceived

sound spectrum inharmonic and rough in timbre. The data in Fig. 2 show that for the standard octave of music,

C4–C5 (261.6–523.3 Hz), the second harmonic (one octave higher) would be mistuned by about 10 Cent and the

fourth harmonic (two octaves higher) by about 35 Cent. Such a mistuning of harmonics is perceived as a sharp timbre

shift towards roughness. None of the reports of a CBZ induced pitch shift, however, has mentioned such a timbre shift.

Another possibility would be that CBZ leaves the cochlea unaffected but influences periodicity filtering for pitch

detection in the auditory brainstem. Physiological models of pitch extraction (Langner et al., 1998; Braun, 1999) assume

a periodicity filtering of neural action potentials in the central nucleus of the inferior colliculus (ICC). The frequencies

of partials of complex harmonic sound are encoded by neuronal phase-locking in separate channels

from cochlea to ICC, where they are then reintegrated and filtered for common periods, the strongest one representing

the fundamental, i.e., the pitch period. A down-shift of pitch, here, could occur either by a

slowing down of the incoming phase-locked spike trains, or by a speeding up of intrinsic oscillations in the periodicity

filters. The first possibility looks attractive, because CBZ causes a use-dependent blockade of voltage-dependent

Na(+) channels (see Section 1) and thus can inhibit high-frequency neural firing. It also looks attractive, because

CBZ increases the neural response latencies at several nuclei of the auditory brainstem, both in the rat (Hirose

et al., 1990) and in humans (Japaridze et al., 1993). It seems unlikely, though, that inhibition of high-frequency neural

firing could lead to an orderly reduction of the firing frequency in this case. If the inhibition is so strong that it increases

the mean inter-spike interval in a neuron population, phase-locking to the input periodicity will

break down immediately and the periodicity signal will be lost.

A speeding up of intrinsic oscillations in midbrain periodicity detectors (Langner et al., 1987; Schwarz

et al., 1993; Rees and Sarbaz, 1997; Galazyuk and Feng, 2001) would seem much more plausible, considering the

effects of CBZ on Ca(2+) channels and on intracellular Ca(2+) levels (see Section 1). This hypothesis is further

supported by a recent report that trimipramine (TRP), a neurotropic drug that is used as an antidepressant, also

down-shifts pitch by about one semitone (Koerner and Deuschle, 2003). Interestingly, the only known pharmacological

property that TRP has in common with CBZ is the inhibition of Ca(2+) channels (Beauchamp et al.,1992; Lavoie et al., 1994; Langosch et al., 1998; Soler et al., 2000).

 

It seems logical that Heimia would provide its pitch shift somehow similar to this mechanism too. Erowid experiment #60354 (link at top) says Heimia shifts by exactly a whole octave though, unlike the other two drugs which only shift by roughly a semitone. So, somehow a huge shift seems to be occuring (assuming that it is indeed an octave shift). I have probably exhausted my understanding for now. But once I have a better grasp of the auditory system's flow, I'll speculate more.

[mescalito]

I use it for BZ withdrawals and it has helped immensely,though the Erowid reports ,well I wouldn't rely on as I've been using it on and off and the reports are not true IME.

It seems to be self regulating in that if I can't smell it( I roll it mixed with baccy) or taste it,it tends to bring on tinnitus and it's efficacy is lost for a day or so so I stop.

As far as pitch shifting,well I'm a musical person who plays by ear and can pretty well name the notes by ear and haven't noticed anything in the way of pitch changing.

I was quite a hardy dinker(not a drunk,just loved my arvo beers) before I started withdrawal and have been ramping down the strength(I home-brew) and amount consumed gradually through this,which I basically had to as I couldn't just stop after years of tolerance at the same time,I tried but it was hell on top of hell....I feel that the Heimia helped me get down to now basically 2 or 3 at about 2%,when I was easily a 6+ a night drinker for the most part through BZ W/D's.Before that it was nothing to down 7 Litres of 4.3% whilst on Xanax alone.

Hey no-ones perfect and it did stuff things up especially if friends came around all charged up as I'd drink more..... but I'm just not interested anymore.....now I'm a traitor and they don't come around LOL oh well.Got better things to do now!

I'm at day 7 after knocking off half of the last .125mg Xan,next week the Xan goes and it's just 40mg Val .

I did try to ditch the whole lot of Xan a while back and started to fade out(I've fitted before first time around the W/d's before I re-instated due to rapid detox years ago)so I re-instated back the tiny bit and suffered for over a month.

The P. Cinnabarina goes well too thanks tst,especially as a combo with Heimia.Just a little needed for pain relief/muscle tension to make it bearable.

I smoke Heimia in the morning with a cuppa Chamomile,then L-gluta and water with Vit C,also I smoke some at night when I usually tend to get thirsty,but I've lost the cravings now!

I just like the malted barley,so I'll have to come up with a non-alc recipe.

So yeah I'd say it would help with Alc for sure!

Edit:Heimia also has diuretic properties

Edited April 23, 2011 by mescalito

[Zen Peddler]

No one told me Heimia were anti inflammatory!!!

[planthelper]

good timing for me, this thread.

inspired by tantra & auxin, i manufactured some heimia resin about a year ago, but i never used the product...

so yesterday, i read this post's, and by chance it was my 2nd day of alco and pot withdrawl and i thought, i give this heimia a go and see if it helps with the withdrawls.

once i found my heimia resin, and had a look inside the small jar, i got dissapointed, because a white fungus had been spreading over parts of the surface of the resin.

but i thought, i don't care about the white mould and use some of the material anyway, and proceeded to put a bit (size of a cooked rice corn) of the heimia into my mouth and kept it there, till it was all disolved.

than, i did put my glasses on, and started to inspect the white mould with the additional help of a magnifying glass...

and yes, what a bloody nice surprise, the white mold, was no mould, but solid white crystalls!!! when i stored the material initially there were no crystall, but over storage, they oozed out of the material and settled on the top. no visible crystalls were formed at the rest of the material, all the crystalls were on top, and that makes sence to me, as the crystalls would have formed maybe the same way, as salt forms on top of muddy salt planes.

just seconds after putting the the sun opener resin around my tounge, i felt a very mild sensation, a bit similar to when benzo's kick in, a feeling, a bit like "dissassociated".

now, there are a few different sensations one might experience when under withdrawl, fidgeding with the legs, sweaty periodes followed by chills, going in circles and foremost, a very difficult to describe sensation, something like an empty chest, something that feels remotely, like sore muscles from over exercising, but this mainly in the chest area.

anyway, the heimia right away took that horrible withdrawl feeling in the chest area away!!!!!!!!!!!

than i dosed up to maybe 4 times than the previous amount, and the feeling that heimia helped me increased. however it, didn't seem to have as much effect on the other withdrawl sensations.

in a nut shell, heimia seemed to help me a great deal, and i'm looking forward to try it again today, although the "uncomfortable chest sensation" is already much milder today.

it seems to me that heimia is realy a powerfull tool, when it comes to overcome addiction!!

guess what, i will increase my heimia production!

Edited April 26, 2011 by planthelper