Why Pot Smokers Are Paranoid

[Teotzlcoatl]

Teotz, posted above is an explanation why legal medical marijuana could result in severe paranoia.

Of course if you take too much.

[Mycot]

Double post.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Mycot

[Mycot]

Mycot I'm looking forward to reading your contribution to the discussion.

Nay saying everyone that believes that marijuana use can result in paranoia does not cut it.

 

First off let me say that I do not disagree that marijuana use can result in paranoia in the sense of being able to have a paranoic response to it.

Paranoia can also occur after taking any of the classic hallucinogens, salvia, ketamine, speed, indeed just about any substance that has the effect of altering conscousness.

What I disagree with is that paranoia is an automatic effect(as a direct physiological effect) of the use of cannabis any more than paranoia could result from any number of stimuli including use of any psychotropc drug, though yes there may be more likelihould of paranoia with the "consciousness expanding" substances. The unqualified "pot makes you paranoid" blanket statement is no better than LSD makes you paranoid, DMT makes you paranoid, etc.

Your own statement "marijuana smoke may make you less paranoid" corraborates this.

Also present throughout the thread is where non-smokers can seem much more paranoid than the smokers.

The kind of thinking that formed a rash of crazy delusional thinking that paved the way in making marijuana illegal in the first place. Now because nobody believes these early claims, great lengths are resorted to in order to maintain the status quo, including convincing through bad sloppy science and sloppy thinking.

Teotzicoatl in her post said that "People who smoke cannabis are paranoid because it is illegal, plain and simple" and by and large she is correct. The illegality of substances provides a constant source of worry for a user and that given proper set and setting one should be fine.

That potent grass or high doses of a substance is more likely to have a paranoic response than low doses is no suprise to anyone.One is entering a state that is different to the usual, one could say that psychic energies are arroused.

These energies(mental thinking patterns) need to be channeled into a productive outcome, and having a positive experience. Don't go into mental ruts.

The guy mentioned that was having problems with the more potent variety of cannabis most likely just needed more practice.

Start off with low doses and then build up, learning how to navigate. Turning off the paranoic response can sometimes be as simple as deciding not to get paranoid.

Otherwise try and identify what is really worrying one, whether there is a real threat present that is causing the paranoia. Ridgid thinking, inability to relax and pleasure anxiety are a hinderance.

A little story to lighten things up a bit. I once knew a guy who didn't smoke because he claimed that every time that he had smoked he got paranoid.

By and large he got paranoid because that was his expectation, he got paranoid because he expected to get paranoid.

I told him that I could get him stoned and he wouldn't have a paranoid experience.

Sure enough I provided a relaxed setting, good music, good conversation etc and you can guess what occured.

He didn't go paranoid and he had a good enjoyable experience.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Mycot

[synchromesh]

I can see a lot of the marijuana defenders are still under her spell. I was in the exact same position. Could see nothing wrong and everything right. But once I actually thought about it, and used real rational thought I could see that it was barely better than crack or smack. The final straw was deja vu, constantly and intensely for 60-90 minute periods.

I think that Mycot is right... it's the non-smokers in the thread who are the most paranoid!

-Unless you use a vaporizer, you're filling your lungs with crap. As you age, your lungs become less and less able to heal. It's pretty ungrateful - the lungs are your gateway to life. Show them some f**king respect.

 

Smoking Marijuana Does Not Cause Lung Cancer

New research shows there seems to be something in pot that actually undermines cancer, instead of causing it. -- and the media are doing their best to ignore it.

-It's just chasing the dragon. It never gets better. It's always the same - or worse.

Comparing it to heroin as well now... Brilliant!

-If you're spending so many days of your life blazed (even just more than say 5-10 days a year) - then you're seriously being distracted from extreme, infinite, ever-growing happiness. This ultimate happiness can be found inside your mind, it was there all along. You just misplaced it - why don't you help other people to find their ultimate happiness?

-Marijuana lowers your capability for active efficient thinking. The thinking is full of loops and habitual thoughts. Yes, I know performance has been tested in studies. But those studies use 4% THC. Hahahaha. Here's a real study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16572123

Yeah, a real waste of time study! All it shows is that skunk (temporarily) slows down motor skills... Jeez, I never knew that!

Good things about marijuana:

It provides pain relief (in which time you should solve the source of the pain as best as possible), it delays tumor growth, appetite creation, glaucoma medicine, it's cheap.

Provides personal insights, lowers stress, brings inspiration, enhances the senses, broadens the mind, increases empathy, brings back old memories, enhances creativity...

But essentially there's little justification to smoking it long-term being a good idea. There's so many things that can alleviate chronic pain that should be done first. Diet, whatever exercise can be done, meditation - try all those first with as much effort as you give to ripping bongs.

 

First of all, since when did stoners only smoke pot to alleviate pain? Secondly, what's a better painkiller than pot for cancer and AIDS patients? And thirdly and finally, how are diet and exercise effective pain killers?

[santiago]

maybe pot smokers are paranoid.

what is the opposite of paranoia.................ignorance.

in life ignorance seems to be a nasty word. when you call somebody ignorant its akin to an insult. all it means is that the person is un-enlightened.

so lets take 2 people at a party.

person A is stoned and he notices people are talking about him

person B is not stoned and doesnt realise people are talking about him.

one is paranoid and the other is ignorant.

im not on one side or the other, all i can hypothesise is that people who are stoned tend to notice everyday things in a more magnified way ie they become more sensitive to life.

paranoid is just a word for ones ability to notice things in a magnified way.

and to put in a personal opinion, over the years i have not touched pot for many years at a time at many different times and have noticed absolutely no difference at all long term short term..............whatever, its a complete fallacy made up by people who think they are SPECIAL. ie i have given up pot..............now i am clear, now my mental functions work better, now i am cured...................OMG, its the biggest pile of crap i have ever heard in my life all set up for a self centred view of oneself being special and cured. seriously it takes more than giving up pot to achieve purity and clarity...................dont kid yourself into believing the hype, its simply not true. MJ does not effect brain function in anyway....................cured or uncured.

paranoid or ignorant.................the choice is yours.

[rahli]

First off let me say that I do not disagree that marijuana use can result in paranoia in the sense of being able to have a paranoic response to it.

Paranoia can also occur after taking any of the classic hallucinogens, salvia, ketamine, speed, indeed just about any substance that has the effect of altering conscousness.

What I disagree with is that paranoia is an automatic effect(as a direct physiological effect) of the use of cannabis any more than paranoia could result from any number of stimuli including use of any psychotropc drug, though yes there may be more likelihould of paranoia with the "consciousness expanding" substances. The unqualified "pot makes you paranoid" blanket statement is no better than LSD makes you paranoid, DMT makes you paranoid, etc.

Your own statement "marijuana smoke may make you less paranoid" corraborates this.

Teotzicoatl in her post said that "People who smoke cannabis are paranoid because it is illegal, plain and simple" and by and large she is correct. The illegality of substances provides a constant source of worry for a user and that given proper set and setting one should be fine.

These energies(mental thinking patterns) need to be channeled into a productive outcome, and having a positive experience. Don't go into mental ruts.

The guy mentioned that was having problems with the more potent variety of cannabis most likely just needed more practice.

Start off with low doses and then build up, learning how to navigate. Turning off the paranoic response can sometimes be as simple as deciding not to get paranoid.

Otherwise try and identify what is really worrying one, whether there is a real threat present that is causing the paranoia. Ridgid thinking, inability to relax and pleasure anxiety are a hinderance.

 

I agree with you that the statement "pot makes you paranoid" is incorrect. I believe that pot can make you paranoid. And that it is a physiological reaction that can be very hard to just explain away. The explanation given in the posted article for this loss of control in the sufferer makes sense in my mind. Obviously not everyone is going to have this response but this fact does not make it any less true. I once had a panic attack on e that saw me happy and having a great time with my mates one minute and the next convinced I was going to die. God knows why, it was just an irrational response triggered off from overdosing on e. My mate took a few minutes to convince me that I was ok and I came down like a ton of bricks and was stuffed for the remainder of the night. I believe that this was a physiological response to e could be similarly explained to the paranoia response outlined in the article.

The statement "marijuana may make you less paranoid" was not my statement, it was synchromesh that came out with that one. I simply made the observation that if this is true for you then you should think about having a bit of a break from pot to get your head around things. Using it as a crutch to hide behind is not going to help in the long run.

Both Teotz and your opinion on the illegality of pot largely contributing to paranoid response, does not account for the estimated 6 percent of medical marijuana users that have an irrational paranoid response, as stated in the artical that i posted from the socal medical marijuana site. I doubt the pigs would be beating their door down anytime soon. But given that some users of medical marijuana could have very seriouis illness, who blames them for getting paranoid. It would be interesting to know if seriousness of illness did in anyway increase the likelihood of paranoia.

Your opinion that paranoia can be controlled through a rational learned response would likely make people that are experts at quelling marijuana paranoia experts at dealing with any drug induced paranoia. It is just a thought after all that can be explained away with practice. In my experience this is not the case as I have stated on a number of occasions throughout this thread. I believe this to be because there is a different physiological reaction and response happening within the pot users mind in response to paranoia. Once pot users have normalized this resonse it becomes unapparent to the conscious mind. I believe that changa has the potential to bring this paranoia to the surface and unless delt with, this paranoia results in a wall of fear. In each case the folks expressed that chronic marijuana use was a significant brick in this wall. I have also noticed that non pot smokers tend to have a much reduced fear response compared to pot smokers when confronted by the changa space.

My observations are however limited as I have stated. I am putting this idea out there to both provide a potential explanation to pot users who found changa unworkable and to hear if anyone else with experience in dmt outcomes, sees truth in this observation, however they wish to explain it. If true it could discourage a lot of pot users from trying it in the first place, but could also help a lot of people who would like to work with it. However if chronic pot use is a brick in your wall of fear, changa will have no quarms about letting you know. Or so I've been told.

[Mycot]

The short dictionary definition of paranoia gives.

par·a·noi·a (pr-noi)

n.

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.

2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

Not sure that I would equate awareness with paranoia or paranoia neccessarily being the opposite of ignorance although if there is something one should be alarmed about one would not want to be ignorant.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Mycot

[Mycot]

The statement "marijuana may make you less paranoid" was not my statement, it was synchromesh that came out with that one. I simply made the observation that if this is true for you then you should think about having a bit of a break from pot to get your head around things. Using it as a crutch to hide behind is not going to help in the long run.

Marijuana may certainly be abused. There is a big difference between use and abuse. Someone who uses it in excess to the extent where it has a detrimental effect upon their life is certainly abusing it. In this case there is likely to be some subconcious matter that the user is not dealing with.

Modern life however is often filled with many pressures and stesses and having say a single drink, joint, coffee or cigarette to relax/de-stress causes no great harm. It is when use is excessive that we have cause for worry.

When people say that pot makes you less paranoid they are often just refering to this de-stressing effect.

Both Teotz and your opinion on the illegality of pot largely contributing to paranoid response, does not account for the estimated 6 percent of medical marijuana users that have an irrational paranoid response, as stated in the artical that i posted from the socal medical marijuana site. I doubt the pigs would be beating their door down anytime soon. But given that some users of medical marijuana could have very seriouis illness, who blames them for getting paranoid. It would be interesting to know if seriousness of illness did in anyway increase the likelihood of paranoia.

In the case of medical marijuana, legality would not be a factor that could account for any manifestations of paranoia, so the explanation has to be sought for elseware. No real investigantion of what is causing paranoia in that 6% has occured. Getting a licence for medical marijuana is likely not all that easy and one may need to be quite sick to qualify. The figure of 6% is not all that different from rates of psychiatic ilnesses in the general population. Some people should not use cannabis. This does not point to a direct physiological cannabis/paranoia cause - effect relationship as 94% did not experience paranoia and no difference in physiological functioning has been demonstrated.

Your opinion that paranoia can be controlled through a rational learned response would likely make people that are experts at quelling marijuana paranoia experts at dealing with any drug induced paranoia. It is just a thought after all that can be explained away with practice. In my experience this is not the case as I have stated on a number of occasions throughout this thread. I believe this to be because there is a different physiological reaction and response happening within the pot users mind in response to paranoia. Once pot users have normalized this resonse it becomes unapparent to the conscious mind. I believe that changa has the potential to bring this paranoia to the surface and unless delt with, this paranoia results in a wall of fear. In each case the folks expressed that chronic marijuana use was a significant brick in this wall. I have also noticed that non pot smokers tend to have a much reduced fear response compared to pot smokers when confronted by the changa space.

My observations are however limited as I have stated. I am putting this idea out there to both provide a potential explanation to pot users who found changa unworkable and to hear if anyone else with experience in dmt outcomes, sees truth in this observation, however they wish to explain it. If true it could discourage a lot of pot users from trying it in the first place, but could also help a lot of people who would like to work with it. However if chronic pot use is a brick in your wall of fear, changa will have no quarms about letting you know. Or so I've been told.

 

As said above heavy abusers of cannabis are likely to be suppressing subconscoius material and fears. Changa and many other psychedelics tend to show oneself to oneself so supressed material surfaces and for a person that does not want to deal with suppressed issues they would tend to avoid psychedelics. However as said earlier use is very different to abuse. The person who is comfortable with cannabis is often comfortable with psychedelics.

No physiological explanation has been invoked throughout my post here.

I'll get back to the study itself in a further post.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mycot

[CβL]

I think that Mycot is right... it's the non-smokers in the thread who are the most paranoid!

At that time I was a smoker...

Smoking Marijuana Does Not Cause Lung Cancer

New research shows there seems to be something in pot that actually undermines cancer, instead of causing it. -- and the media are doing their best to ignore it.

Did I mention cancer? No. I mentioned crap in your lungs, and the resulting breathing difficulties.

Comparing it to heroin as well now... Brilliant!

The comparison hurts huh. There's a lot more in common with the behaviour of each 'user' than you'd like to admit.

...

The fact you put a swastika instead of even considering what I wrote... What the fuck. By losing your credibility and moral standpoint at this point in your 'rebuttal' - you may as well not have tried to refure my other points.

Yeah, a real waste of time study! All it shows is that skunk (temporarily) slows down motor skills... Jeez, I never knew that!

And it consistently impairs executive functioning (did you even read the abstract?). It's also only temporary if you stop getting blazed.

Provides personal insights, lowers stress, brings inspiration, enhances the senses, broadens the mind, increases empathy, brings back old memories, enhances creativity...

If you think it was the dack that gave you personal insights and enhanced your creativity... Then I pity you. About the only valid point you make is stress reduction. But even then - it's just covering up the problem of stress. Getting blazed doesn't solve stress at all. Fixing the source of the stress does though, it'll be a lot easier to fix without having impaired motor skills and problem solving.

First of all, since when did stoners only smoke pot to alleviate pain? Secondly, what's a better painkiller than pot for cancer and AIDS patients? And thirdly and finally, how are diet and exercise effective pain killers?

1) That's the point I just made...

2) That was also my point...

3) Ha! You're obviously doing it wrong if you don't know how diet and exercise can relieve pain. The body is amazing. It can do anything, and healing itself is one of those things. I have a good mate who shattered his heel and smoked pot instead of exercising and eating right (as in more protein and minerals to re-build his bone). His ankle is still fucked (despite multiple surgeries over the course of 2 years). He's as sick as ever, and constantly has lung infections from the smoke and a weakened immune system. And his pain can only be gone temporarily. How bi-winning.

Finally, I've been there. I've done that. Try quitting for a few years and then you'll have a more valid [clear] viewpoint. And just to clarify: I'm not against marijuana and the free use of it by responsible adults - but dependence/addiction on the regular smoking of it - weak. And even weaker is justifying that dependence.

[CβL]

And santiago:

The opposite or paranoia (irrational delusions) is not ignorance. It's the lack of irrational delusions.

If it were as you say, then we can check by going the opposite direction (as opposite pairs do); the antonym of ignorance is: knowledge or understanding.

Knowledge or understanding != paranoia.

person A is stoned and he notices people are talking about him. Technically, if person A is the paranoid guy - then he only thinks he's being talked about. He's making up things in his head. That's the meaning of paranoia.

person B is not stoned and doesnt realise people are talking about him. Oh well. What would it change if he was on the prowl the whole night for people talking stick about him, and he did hear some gossip? What would he do if he found out? Beat them up? Cry? It's better that he just goes on with his night. Let the wastrels talk idle crap.

As much as marijuana can provide an alternative outlook on life - it's scope is severely limited compared to more benign substances such as LSD. Marijuana produces habitual thinking and reduces the decision process to one of mostly habit. The cannabinoid system IS the habit system. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526012/

Lastly, your uninformed statements of claiming that marijuana doesn't affect thinking are plainly wrong. Yes, I agree that the difference is subtle. Yes, people who get blazed every second of every day can often perform above the society average. But the thinking does change. The cannabinoid system is not some auxiliary part of your personality. It's an integral part, and by having THC in your cannabinoid system, it becomes a part of your personality, whether or not it's easy to see. I can see it. I have felt it. The fact you don't think there's a difference indicates you haven't noticed it, and don't have as clear a perception as those who have noticed.

[synchromesh]

Did I mention cancer? No. I mentioned crap in your lungs, and the resulting breathing difficulties.

Maybe I was trying to say that it's good for your lungs in general?? Besides the people who've smoked 30 bongs a day for 30 years, I haven't heard of anybody getting bad lungs from smoking pot...

The comparison hurts huh. There's a lot more in common with the behaviour of each 'user' than you'd like to admit.

 

Nah, it just makes me shake my head. You're basically calling every pot smoker a junkie, simply because you are too weak to admit that you caused your own addiction...

The fact you put a swastika instead of even considering what I wrote... What the fuck. By losing your credibility and moral standpoint at this point in your 'rebuttal' - you may as well not have tried to refure my other points.

What's there to consider? What you said was fascist.

And it consistently impairs executive functioning (did you even read the abstract?). It's also only temporary if you stop getting blazed.

Does that mean that you wouldn't be able to get a job at a bank? Anyway, toss-toss! Skunk and weed are two entirely different things!

If you think it was the dack that gave you personal insights and enhanced your creativity... Then I pity you. About the only valid point you make is stress reduction. But even then - it's just covering up the problem of stress. Getting blazed doesn't solve stress at all. Fixing the source of the stress does though, it'll be a lot easier to fix without having impaired motor skills and problem solving.

The least pot did for me was expand my preferences of music. And for that alone, I am eternally grateful for it.

1) That's the point I just made...

2) That was also my point...

3) Ha! You're obviously doing it wrong if you don't know how diet and exercise can relieve pain. The body is amazing. It can do anything, and healing itself is one of those things. I have a good mate who shattered his heel and smoked pot instead of exercising and eating right (as in more protein and minerals to re-build his bone). His ankle is still fucked (despite multiple surgeries over the course of 2 years). He's as sick as ever, and constantly has lung infections from the smoke and a weakened immune system. And his pain can only be gone temporarily. How bi-winning.

No, you didn't, you said this:

But essentially there's little justification to smoking it long-term being a good idea. There's so many things that can alleviate chronic pain that should be done first. Diet, whatever exercise can be done, meditation - try all those first with as much effort as you give to ripping bongs.

Right, but that's long-term healing... what we're talking about is short-term pain-relief...

Cannabis doesn't weaken the immune system, dimwit... It strengthens it.

Finally, I've been there. I've done that. Try quitting for a few years and then you'll have a more valid [clear] viewpoint.

I have quit for a few years, sunshine...

And just to clarify: I'm not against marijuana and the free use of it by responsible adults - but dependence/addiction on the regular smoking of it - weak. And even weaker is justifying that dependence.

Could have fuckin' fooled me!

[santiago]

good response bluntmuffin i really enjoyed reading your posts.

freud theorised that paranoia had something to do with ones homosexuality?

maybe just maybe smoking pot releases some area in the brain that keeps homosexuality locked, its the paranoia that is formed as a result of trying to supress this feeling. it may be that the paranoia is indirect and seemingly unrelated, perhaps those who have no fear of homosexuality or are even homosexual themselves have a different paranoia response if any to those who repress their homosexuality.

any takers....

does homosexuality effect paranoia response?

[Mycot]

Bluntmuffin I agree with much of what you say in post no 110 though I would qualify these last two paragraphs.

As much as marijuana can provide an alternative outlook on life - it's scope is severely limited compared to more benign substances such as LSD. Marijuana produces habitual thinking and reduces the decision process to one of mostly habit. The cannabinoid system IS the habit system. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526012/

As for comparing which substance is more benign, LSD or cannabis I'm not sure how I would compare the two. They both seem to hold the potential for creation or destruction. That the potential of cannabis is less than that of the more powerful psychedelics is of course true.

According to the article the cannabinoid system is intricately involved with habit formation as is the dopaminergic system. Habit formation is not necessarily a bad thing. Riding a bicicle or driving a car is largely enabled through the creation of habitual responces. This is not the same as saying that marijuana or dopamine produces habitual thinking in the sense of having ridgid inflexible thought processes or that they impare conceptual decision-making capabilities. What we call decision-making in animals is quite different in nature to the conceptual decision-making that occurs in humans which is in many respects of a more complex nature and different in character.

Lastly, your uninformed statements of claiming that marijuana doesn't affect thinking are plainly wrong. Yes, I agree that the difference is subtle. Yes, people who get blazed every second of every day can often perform above the society average. But the thinking does change. The cannabinoid system is not some auxiliary part of your personality. It's an integral part, and by having THC in your cannabinoid system, it becomes a part of your personality, whether or not it's easy to see. I can see it. I have felt it. The fact you don't think there's a difference indicates you haven't noticed it, and don't have as clear a perception as those who have noticed.

 

As you say the difference is subtle sometimes very much so. Using any drug be it cannabis, alchohol, the opiates, stimulants, hallucinogens(the list could go on) for a long time will produce subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes in thinking and personality.

The problem is often in describing and/or measuring just what changes are present. That you are what you eat is in some sense true. A further problem occurs in identifying whether the subtle changes are beneficial or detrimental to the organism.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mycot

[Mycot]

I wanted to get back to this.

would like to know how much people use? daily weekly monthly? have you ever asked yourself if you could live your life without pot or any drug for that matter? ever wondered what it would be like to live without it, not just saying for a couple months but for years? how would your life change?

 

Spudamore I may have misinterpreted this post and if such is the case then you are entitled to an long overdue apology for that misunderstanding and my harsh reply/response which would therefore be inappropriate.

As misunderstandings often give rise to further misunderstandings a further misunderstanding appears to have also occurred;- that of a misunderstanding of my reply on Spudamore's part.

The first couple of sentences may be interpreted as prurient interest, gathering data to raise alarm by which to attack the user. It certainly was not part of some scientific use survey or interest in such.

Now I understand that you may have just been seeking a guage to measure use against abuse though one must not be too hasty in rendering such judgement.

Many factors may be operative in a situation, people use for different reasons and exceptions to the rule do occur.

The last few sentences quite rhetorical in nature could be seen as one person telling another person how to live or interpreted as a rhetorical device to point out that in the case of abuse there is more to life than pot and that if abuse is present then the idea of a break is not such a bad idea. In the broad sense living without drugs is a lifestyle choice as drugs may have legitemate uses and all bioactive compounds even such as are obtained from normal foods may be considered as drugs.

Language can be a clumsy mode of communication in that it can be a tricky tool in correctly communicating meaning and tone and miscommuniction often occurs.

Furthermore a person may appear to be the patronising proselizing crusader when that person is not actually being such. The same words communicated by two different people coming from different perspectives may differ significantly in tone, emphasis and meaning.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mycot

[CβL]

As for comparing which substance is more benign, LSD or cannabis I'm not sure how I would compare the two. They both seem to hold the potential for creation or destruction. That the potential of cannabis is less than that of the more powerful psychedelics is of course true.

According to the article the cannabinoid system is intricately involved with habit formation as is the dopaminergic system. Habit formation is not necessarily a bad thing. Riding a bicicle or driving a car is largely enabled through the creation of habitual responces. This is not the same as saying that marijuana or dopamine produces habitual thinking in the sense of having ridgid inflexible thought processes or that they impare conceptual decision-making capabilities. What we call decision-making in animals is quite different in nature to the conceptual decision-making that occurs in humans which is in many respects of a more complex nature and different in character.

I only use the habit-forming and addiction potential as the difference between the two, and the ROA probably counts too. I was also only referring to the cannabinoid system and habitual behaviour to say that when it is not functioning correctly (i.e. being flooded with alien cannabinoids), not that it creates habits, but more that it reduces critical thinking and increases reliance on habitual patterns of thinking and behaviour. This is often fine for normal tasks. But it's the abnormal tasks that get affected.

As you say the difference is subtle sometimes very much so. Using any drug be it cannabis, alchohol, the opiates, stimulants, hallucinogens(the list could go on) for a long time will produce subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes in thinking and personality.

The problem is often in describing and/or measuring just what changes are present. That you are what you eat is in some sense true. A further problem occurs in identifying whether the subtle changes are beneficial or detrimental to the organism.

Totally true. I only have my own personal experience and my observations of close friends. From those observations and experiences, it's my belief that cannabis creates a false sense of increased perception and insight. I, for example, used to write down every thing I thought of that would strike me as brilliant at the time. While thinking of them - I thought I was always genius. When I came back to them later, I found a lot of them were actually quite stupid (maybe half of them). Comparing those insights (where many of them are false), to mushroom revelations... It's a completely different kettle of fish. I've only ever learned when using mushrooms - deep, deep, absolutely mindblowing truths about myself, and the nature of existentiality. And the measure of this is how well I'm using with my life - am I keeping in mind it's the greatest gift I'll ever have, is my use of life reflecting that. My friends who smoke regularly (although it is still quite early to tell), seem to a lot worse off than my friends who are teetotallers (with regards to marijuana). I won't deny that there have been positive things resulting from marijuana. However it's my experience that these positive things will ultimately become outweighed by negative things (in the individual).

And finally synchromesh - there's no point even responding to what you wrote. You sadden me. It seems to me that you think you're open-minded - have a think about that. Calling people fascists and what not... That kind of talk belongs on the jungle gym.

[Mycot]

Bluntmuffin it is hard to understand what you are saying in the first paragraph without knowing what you mean by abnormal tasks. Critical thinking I have found to be just as good if not better in users than it is in non-users.

Mind you I am not talking about the heavy abuser who lives their life in a haze of smoke.

With your second paragraph, I've generally found that those who smoke in moderation are often much better persons than a great many teetotallers (with regards to marijuana).

[Mycot]

Covering the first part of post #106.

I agree with you that the statement "pot makes you paranoid" is incorrect. I believe that pot can make you paranoid. And that it is a physiological reaction that can be very hard to just explain away. The explanation given in the posted article for this loss of control in the sufferer makes sense in my mind. Obviously not everyone is going to have this response but this fact does not make it any less true. I once had a panic attack on e that saw me happy and having a great time with my mates one minute and the next convinced I was going to die. God knows why, it was just an irrational response triggered off from overdosing on e. My mate took a few minutes to convince me that I was ok and I came down like a ton of bricks and was stuffed for the remainder of the night. I believe that this was a physiological response to e could be similarly explained to the paranoia response outlined in the article.

 

The problem with the explanation given in the posted article is that it is full of assumptions.

Whether one is on cannabis, straight or on a different drug, in your case E, a person may suddenly switch from one state to another without quite knowing why.

One may suddenly go from non-paranoid to paranoid, from paranoid to non-paranoid or switch back and forth, again without quite knowing why.

While tempting because it absolves responsibility and because it provides an explanation, putting the cause down to the physiological action of the drug itself is likely to be incorrect.

That it is not due to the direct physiological action of the drug itself can be inferred from the fact that the physiological action of the drug itself remains operative throughout both states.

The most likely cause is due to sub-conscious activity. We recieve many stimuli from the environment that do not consciously register but are recieved by the sub-consious. In our own thought processess there are fleeting thoughts too quick to register on the conscious mind but registering subconsciously.

These two processes, a threat subconsciously recieved from the environment and/or an anxiety provoking thought not consciously registered would be the stimuli for a sudden change of mood, all happening without consciously knowing why.

A closer look at that posted article still to come.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mycot

[Mycot]

Computer misbehaving causing double posting.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mycot

[synchromesh]

And finally synchromesh - there's no point even responding to what you wrote. You sadden me. It seems to me that you think you're open-minded - have a think about that. Calling people fascists and what not... That kind of talk belongs on the jungle gym.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, wasn't I polite enough to you? What with you calling every stoner a junkie and everything, I didn't really think that you deserved it...

Telling people that they will become unhappy addicts if they smoke more than 5 times a year, is fascist. It's nothing more than a fear tactic to make people think like you do.

You even went on to imply that stoners don't know how to love: "why don't you help other people to find their ultimate happiness?" Not cool.. not cool at all...

[CβL]

I don't know exactly what abnormal tasks would be either. It probably depends somewhat on the individual as well. An interesting, relevent article is here: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2783.html

But it seems those particular scientists all started using cannabis/LSD after they somewhat older. I think this is important. The effect of cannabis and LSD can be broadly generalized to a 'stirring' of the coffee mug that your mind is in. These drugs do not bring knowledge inherently into the body (that we know of). But if there's little in the coffee mug, little will be stirred. As in I think you need to fill your head with knowledge first to be able to have a profound insights on them. Getting blazed itself did not solely provide these scientists with their ideas. It just catalyzed what was already there. And as we know from chemistry, there are more efficient and powerful catalysts than others.

Yes, moderation being the key word. I would agree there for sure that those people are usually very pleasant and nice people, often more so than teetotallers. But usually I've noticed that this effect does not wane when marijuana is ceased.

Edit:

Synchromesh.

I never called them junkies, YOU DID. I made a comparison to the behaviour patterns.

I never called them unhappy addicts at all. I said that the happiness you get is pitiful compared to what you CAN get from other things. There's a huge difference.

I never implied stoners don't know how to love. You pulled that from thin air. I implied that getting stoned in itself is a selfish pursuit.

You seem to have made up your own mind on what I've said, and have deluded the meaning of my words. It looks to me like you have trouble reading things (from the multiple times you have missed things or totally been confused), and I suggest you slow down your reading speed to get more meaning from what you do read.

Edit again:

No point making another post for your post below. You just don't get it and continually misconstrue what I write. I'm not joking when I say you need to bone up on the definition of words.

Edited April 24, 2011 by bluntmuffin

[synchromesh]

I don't know exactly what abnormal tasks would be either. It probably depends somewhat on the individual as well. An interesting, relevent article is here: http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2783.html

But it seems those particular scientists all started using cannabis/LSD after they somewhat older. I think this is important. The effect of cannabis and LSD can be broadly generalized to a 'stirring' of the coffee mug that your mind is in. These drugs do not bring knowledge inherently into the body (that we know of). But if there's little in the coffee mug, little will be stirred. As in I think you need to fill your head with knowledge first to be able to have a profound insights on them. Getting blazed itself did not solely provide these scientists with their ideas. It just catalyzed what was already there. And as we know from chemistry, there are more efficient and powerful catalysts than others.

It's a catalyst now is it? Because I thought you said that it was just something that made people avoid their problems...

Yes, moderation being the key word. I would agree there for sure that those people are usually very pleasant and nice people, often more so than teetotallers. But usually I've noticed that this effect does not wane when marijuana is ceased.

That doesn't mean that getting high still didn't teach them something about themselves. At least in the beginning.

I never called them junkies, YOU DID. I made a comparison to the behaviour patterns.

 

The fuck I did. All I said was that you called them that. And by saying things such as pot is barely better than crack and heroin, that's exactly what you did!

I never called them unhappy addicts at all. I said that the happiness you get is pitiful compared to what you CAN get from other things. There's a huge difference.

 

Smoking 5 to 10 times in a year has no effect on a (mentally healthy) person's happiness at all! It could simply mean that that person went to 5 to 10 parties that year!

I never implied stoners don't know how to love. You pulled that from thin air. I implied that getting stoned in itself is a selfish pursuit.

 

Nah, you just said that they don't make other people happy... Anyway, what's the big difference between what I said and what you're saying now? How is one meant to truly love another if he only cares about himself?

Edited April 24, 2011 by synchromesh

[rahli]

The problem with the explanation given in the posted article is that it is full of assumptions.

Whether one is on cannabis, straight or on a different drug, in your case E, a person may suddenly switch from one state to another without quite knowing why.

One may suddenly go from non-paranoid to paranoid, from paranoid to non-paranoid or switch back and forth, again without quite knowing why.

While tempting because it absolves responsibility and because it provides an explanation, putting the cause down to the physiological action of the drug itself is likely to be incorrect.

 

Panic attacks are a well publicised overdose response to MDMA. Researching and accepting this fact after the incident goes a long way to taking responsibility for your drug use and will go a long way to insuring that the episode is not repeated. Convincing your self that unconscious emotional issues are to blame is more irresponsible in this case, in my opinion, as the users is more likely to think overdose amounts are safe if strong of will and mind.

That it is not due to the direct physiological action of the drug itself can be inferred from the fact that the physiological action of the drug itself remains operative throughout both states.

 

In my situation this was not the case as stated in my previous post. After being talked down, I came down like a ton of bricks and was trashed for the rest of the night. Don't ask me what was going on in my neurochemistry and brain response to trigger the panic attack and subsequent crash as I wont even pretend to know, but I did feel way out of whack.

The most likely cause is due to sub-conscious activity. We recieve many stimuli from the environment that do not consciously register but are recieved by the sub-consious. In our own thought processess there are fleeting thoughts too quick to register on the conscious mind but registering subconsciously.

These two processes, a threat subconsciously recieved from the environment and/or an anxiety provoking thought not consciously registered would be the stimuli for a sudden change of mood, all happening without consciously knowing why.

 

I guess using rats in the study goes a long way to reducing the effects of emotional or sub-conscious influence on the outcome of the study. They did however report that the rats preference for room decor was not tested prior to the study, so maybe they didn't go far enough.

I would like to know what action you think marijuana has on physiology, brain chemistry, action and response? How would you design a study to better reflect what is going on within the human brain under the influence of marijuana?

Edited April 24, 2011 by rahli

[Zen Peddler]

This whole argument seems a waste of time. Weed is fantastic and less paranoia inducing than anything else verse weed is an evil substance that guarantees you oparanoid schizophrenia or at least a psychotic episode.

The truth is somewhere in between. its well documented that POT causes paranoia. It is associated with paranoia. Ive known heavy smokers who have definately gone psychotic and who definitively associate with with heavy weed use. It also has some profound and impressive medicinal qualities, it allows a user to experience the magic of a moment more profoundly than just about anything. If you like it and it works for you then great. But it can fuck some people up.

One thing I never liked about the weed scene was always how tight and greedy smokers were. they'd always finish the bowla nd preoccupied in making sure they had enough even if that meant they had to be tight with wanting friends and visitors.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Zen Peddler BlueGreenie

[Zen Peddler]

Panic attacks are a well publicised overdose response to MDMA. Researching and accepting this fact after the incident goes a long way to taking responsibility for your drug use and will go a long way to insuring that the episode is not repeated. Convincing your self that unconscious emotional issues are to blame is more irresponsible in this case, in my opinion, as the users is more likely to think overdose amounts are safe if strong of will and mind.

Really?

In panic attacks there is a documented increase in cerebral serotonin turnover (that is reuptake), an increase in central sympathetic nervous system outflow, a reduction in norepinephrine reuptake in the cardio-vascular system and a decrease in cerebral norepinephrine.

Therefore I am confused how elevated cerebral serotonin and norepinephrine levels could in any way result in low serotonin, high reuptake and other physiological substrate that normally accompanies a panic attack or panic disorder in general.

If that is a panic attack im all for it. In my case it was about as far from a panic attack as one could get.

[synchromesh]

The Twelve Steps of Marijuana Anonymous

1. We admitted that we were powerless over marijuana and that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and become willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood, God, praying only for knowledge of Gods will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to marijuana addicts and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

http://www.marijuana-anonymous.com/the_twelve_steps.html

No wonder so many ex-addicts make out like it's evil...