Police arrest 184 in worldwide pedophile ring: Europol

[Torsten]

Furthermore I am the mother of 4 (count them) children and I see virtually every single time (that I visit a public place such as a shopping center) particular people giving my children more than the usual smile or glance, but a prolonged look up and down which disturbs me.

As a mother it is my job in life to protect my own children.

So when I see someone taking an overt prolonged visual interest in any of my children, I feel an urge to remove them from the sight of the person doing the looking.

I've done this many times with obvious and subtle action.

 

This sounds like you need help. There just aren't THAT many pedophiles and child molesters around to justify that sort of paranoid behaviour which will invariably impact on your kids. Given that the majority of abuse happens by extended family and close family friends who have already passed the parents' scrutiny I find it ludicrous that people still think they can protect their kids by this sort of paranoid activity. All it does is screw up the kids and teach them that superficial judgement is what supposedly protects them and gets them through life, ie you are teaching your kids to be become easily prejudiced.

dworx, I hope you can go back over some of your posts and fix any errors you find. calling someone a groomer etc is not justified by what has actually been stated.

I am also puzzled that you think thoughts and actions deserve the same punishment. I would be very curious why you think this applies in pedophilia and child abuse, but not in other crimes? eg, why is someone who thinks about torture or rape not punished while converting this into action both are? Is that just an emotional response or is there some logic behind it that i fail to see?

I personally can't see much difference between torturing a child or sexually molesting a child [to a prepubescent child they are surely very similar] and hence i also can't see much difference between the thoughts of each crime, yet no one gets locked up for thinking about child torture.....

I can understand where all this anger and fear comes from, but i am just not sure it is helping anyone - least of all the existing or potential victims.

[ballzac]

One time I was watching Dr. Phil , and the guest was a woman who was upset that her daughter (12 years old or something) was dressing too 'grown up' for her age. One of the things she said was that she has seen grown men staring at her daughter in public. I couldn't help thinking that perhaps they were looking and wondering what kind of a mother would let her young daughter dress like that. Not really relevant, but was just reminded of this from the current discussion.

[dworx]

dworx, I hope you can go back over some of your posts and fix any errors you find. calling someone a groomer etc is not justified by what has actually been stated.

I am also puzzled that you think thoughts and actions deserve the same punishment. I would be very curious why you think this applies in pedophilia and child abuse, but not in other crimes? eg, why is someone who thinks about torture or rape not punished while converting this into action both are? Is that just an emotional response or is there some logic behind it that i fail to see?

I personally can't see much difference between torturing a child or sexually molesting a child [to a prepubescent child they are surely very similar] and hence i also can't see much difference between the thoughts of each crime, yet no one gets locked up for thinking about child torture.....

I can understand where all this anger and fear comes from, but i am just not sure it is helping anyone - least of all the existing or potential victims.

 

I am not trying to stir shit, the posts I have replied to of his are inflammatory, I think he's out to hone his manipulation skills here, he obviously is not as concerned with the attention as he makes out as he hasn't once changed the way he has worded things.

Seriously if a pedo molests a child, and someone says he is a pedo who cares if it is grammatically correct because now he is a child molester he is still a pedo, and if you are a pedo who is just thinking about it, there will always be a risk. This is his admission he could take it down, but he wants it to be in the face.

Torsten I hear what you are saying but I think if he airs his thoughts and fantasies he should expect someone at least to be thinking on the other side of the fence with there own views of what he is saying should be accepted. I say I would kill for my chiildren, I would, I never said he should castrate himself, only that the comment might be applicable to him - at least that is what I meant. Sheather has let everyone know he is good with his words,

I think he has also very deliberately been inciting this conversation to the level it is at. Ballzac writes it is called grooming next thing he says he watches kids on the bus and he thinks about playing with them, and its no fun when the parent shuts him down, just my view of course, I don't need an education in the pedo world .

[ballzac]

I am not trying to stir shit, the posts I have replied to of his are inflammatory.

 

There was nothing in the slightest inflammatory about the post to which you responded by saying he was "grooming"

Seriously if a pedo molests a child, and someone says he is a pedo who cares if it is grammatically correct because now he is a child molester he is still a pedo, and if you are a pedo who is just thinking about it, there will always be a risk.

 

A implies B. B therefore A. This is a false syllogism.

This is his admission he could take it down, but he wants it to be in the face.

 

Actually, he was very vague in his statements, and I think he is very brave for admitting as much as he did given the inevitable backlash. Considering that he is so in touch with his feelings that he can see things about himself that are undoubtedly difficult to face, and also open enough to express this to others, I will definitely say he is likely a very trustworthy person.

Ballzac writes it is called grooming next thing he says he watches kids on the bus and he thinks about playing with them, and its no fun when the parent shuts him down, just my view of course, I don't need an education in the pedo world .

 

Firstly, please don't quote me out of context. You are the only one who is equating playing with a child to grooming. Perhaps you have your own issues you need to deal with regarding this topic. Often when we are quick to judge others it is because we see something of ourselves in them. Seeing as you do not know the different between play and molestation I would think twice before letting you 'play' with children.

[dworx]

There was nothing in the slightest inflammatory about the post to which you responded by saying he was "grooming" Yeah maybe - I am probably just a little cautious. What you don't find inflammatory could really piss thoudands of people of and vice versa - same for me I know.so your statement here holds no merit . There was nothing in the slightest inflammatory about the post to you.

Firstly, please don't quote me out of context. You are the only one who is equating playing with a child to grooming. Perhaps you have your own issues you need to deal with regarding this topic. Often when we are quick to judge others it is because we see something of ourselves in them. Seeing as you do not know the different between play and molestation I would think twice before letting you 'play' with children.

Sorry your right you said they make them feel good about themselves etcetc Yes, If someone were to tell me they have sexual fantasies about children, I would look harshly upon any interaction, I am sorry but I see play as a way of building trust and making a child feel good about themselves and though not every one who plays with children is a pedophile I am sure that the grooming label you mentioned could be applied to play by someone with those thoughts, again let me say it I have never said sheather is a pedo, I just see his words fail him at times especially when it comes to the conversations held by the common.

I apologise to anyone who is offended by what I have said except if you are a pedo / child molester/torturer / animal torturer / rapist, hopefully no-one here is and I really want to beleive that.

[dworx]

I will depart this conversation, say what you like, I am free of guilt, and you cannot sway my thoughts on this topic. So neg away.

[ballzac]

I apologise to anyone who is offended by what I have said except if you are a pedo / child molester/torturer / animal torturer / rapist, hopefully no-one here is and I really want to beleive that.

I'm sure there are people of all sorts here. In spite of the main ethos in this community, it is a community like any other, and I'm sure there are people in this community that most of us would rather not be associated with. I apologise for what I said. I don't want to get into the slinging match that has been going on. But I do think you need to think about why you feel the need to see these things in black and white.

[Torsten]

I really appreciate your insight dworx and that you take the time to explain your position. It is by far the most prevalent position in our society and for the most part based on much less solid foundations than yours. I just hope that a more open dialogue will eventually produce a better result for future victims because this problem is not going to go away with the current policies or with vigilante actions from the middle ages.

I think we need to seriously look at interrupting the cycle as that is about the only certainty we have so far elucidated. beyond that hopefully open discussions like differentiating between occasional fantasy vs predation may offer some insight into potential risks, but these can never be explored without open discussion which is why threads like this are so important despite the insults and drama. When i complained about people really showing their colours I did not quite expect the outcome that followed, but the statement stands. I am just really happy that we have so many passionate and intelligent folks here that we can actually have such a conversation. Imagine how this would have gone on Derryn Hinch talkback radio ;)

[hutch]

and if there is a part of the self that carries on to play a part in the universe, it might think to itself "oh now i remember, my actions have consequences"

 

Your soul is the one thing you can't compromise....:David Grey.............

[kadakuda]

not sure if its been covered yet, but does anyone else feel there is a far greater social aspect to this than a biological one?

people are sexually mature at say 10-14, or somewhere in there depending on the person. throughout the animal kingdom, once an animal is sexually mature, they generally tend to reproduce. in other animals i don't think they distinguish quite so strictly the age gaps that are acceptable.

some people also find it acceptable to have young (probably usually women) have sex/reproduce at very early ages.

i personally have no feelings either way, but i really cant see a problem, other than social/traditional, with a 30 year old having *consensual* sex with a person under 18/15 whatever the special accepted age is in the cultures being discussed. as far as our species goes, and how we are built, by nature (or god if you want), we are ready to reproduce rather early, so what is the problem with doing so? aside from social aspects. I mean, its a common occurrence throughout nature to find and be attracted to the most promising mate. not saying ti is, but it may be that animals are just hard wired to be attracted to younger members of the opposite sex, and same peoples wiring might be tweaked a little younger.

consensual sex from sexually able persons i see as a freedom people should have to decide for them self. I dont feel a 13 year old is unable to think for themselves, and although they may make bad decisions (as can a 60 year old), i feel it is their right to have that decision for their own. Non consensual sex is rape, age is not relevant.

[hutch]

Too simplistic Kadakuda, you are flipping off the very things that make us different from the other species on this planet...but your also wrong, look at duck for an example...they mate for life...that shoots a big hole in your theory. Just because you think my 13 year old daughter is mature enough to make her own decisions does not mean she is...my 13 year old daughters life would have been a lot different (fucked) than what it is today had she procreated at 13 and reproduced...Her body was capable I'm sure and I reckon at the time she would have jumped at the opportunity, I remember her at that age as "boy smitten leaning towards potential slut".... We worked long and hard keeping her on the right track, as would most responsible parents. But boy, how her life would be different from the life she leads now and she would have regretted it....she wouldn't have even made a good mother at that age...It would have been devastating for her as well as us because I bet I would have been the one to raise the child...she was too immature but at 13 would not have agreed me..an older male would have easily swooned her into jumping into bed. And I would have easily turned out his lights...

With freedom comes responsibilities! Nobody is "hard wired" as you called it....we are born and raised and if the latter gets fucked up we have fucked up children and then a fucked up society... just have a good look around you now.....

Do you have children of your own? I would fear for a child if it was to be raised in an environment that tolerates those types of freedoms..

My dog would like to bite the nuts off the post man...don't mean I let him...

[ballzac]

Kadakuda, by your reasoning, rape is okay. It is a biologically 'valid' method of procreation, and it is widespread in the animal kingdom. As humans, we tend to take into account the suffering caused by our actions, and you have completely ignored this aspect. It is a fact that a child is likely to suffer immensely if they are taken advantage of sexually, and you can't ignore this fact when you evaluate the ethics of sex with children.

[kadakuda]

no, read my ending, consensual.

rape is not ok. But i do not consider consensual sex rape. that was my post.

I am not disagreeing with any of you, only pointing out all tehse beliefs are based on morals and social conditioning. There are groups of people (aboriginal) that reproduce early, because they are raised that its ok.

In this society of ours we raise everyone up to think sex at 13 is wrong. I am not here to disagree with people having sex at that age that are tied to these social beliefs. In that context, it probably is wrong. I wouldn't let my daughter have sex at 13 either, if i had a choice in it. But i don't pretend its not because of my own social upbringing.

My point was only to say our bodies are ready, we are built to make more of us. I am not confusing any kind of religion or belief system into this, because they tend put up barriers that our physical biology don't. Ducks mating for life is their social standard, as is many human cultures to not have children until after 16 or so. BUt thats not to say its wrong.

I really do agree with you guys, i find it distugsting and fairly disturbing. when i teach my students and hear about somewhere the same age kid is raped, it is very upsetting. but that is because of 2 things. first its rape cause the kids are not consenting to it (and are often not mature), and also because my beliefs that are wired into me say its not good. I meant hard wired as in instincts. its natural to need to eat, drink and reproduce. what more basic instincts can an animal have than those 3? Just like some are attracted to wider hips, bigger breasts, hair colour...i call those hard wired, but maybe they are not. either way it seems we have little control over it, so maybe attraction to young humans is a similar thing in the brain, and instead of jsut vigilante killing them, they can get some kind of mental help.

just speculation and how i view the planet without putting too much bias on things, no offense intended. Though i am all with you i would protect my child, that is also hard wired into us...protect your own, and if you are wired to think young sex is bad, your going to protect your young from it...no arguments there.

[ballzac]

no, read my ending, consensual.

 

Kadakuda, by your reasoning, rape is okay. It is a biologically 'valid' method of procreation, and it is widespread in the animal kingdom...

 

Yeah, I read your post, and then I used exactly the points you made, to then show that, by the same reasoning, rape is okay. I never claimed that you actually said rape is okay, just that following your logic leads to that conclusion. It's called the Socratic method.

[rahli]

I am not disagreeing with any of you, only pointing out all tehse beliefs are based on morals and social conditioning. There are groups of people (aboriginal) that reproduce early, because they are raised that its ok.

My point was only to say our bodies are ready, we are built to make more of us. I am not confusing any kind of religion or belief system into this, because they tend put up barriers that our physical biology don't.

 

Sounds good in theory but in reality it can be very damaging to young girls leading to debilitating ongoing health and social problems. For this reason child marriages have been outlawed in Ethiopia going against the traditional moral stance.

" Tradition is paramount in this part of Ethiopia but practices such as child marriage can have terrible repercussions for the girls. In Amhara half of all girls are married before they are 15. Most get pregnant as soon as it is physically possible. Simegne, 12, is eight months pregnant. “I am looking forward to giving my mother a grandchild,” she said. “But I would rather be back at school.”

Almost all the girls give birth at home without proper healthcare and with no way of reaching a hospital if anything goes wrong - which is often.

Achawache was 15 when she got pregnant. She spent 12 days in labour before eventually giving birth to a stillborn baby. She was left incontinent. The condition is caused during a prolonged labour leading to a hole forming between the bladder and the vagina. It was six years before she heard of a hospital that would treat her. Because she was incontinent, bus drivers refused to let her on board to get to the medical treatment she needed. In many cases the condition leads to the girl being ostracised and deserted by her husband. The Government is determined to stamp out child marriages and has increased the penalties for anyone arranging such a ceremony. Getting the message to areas such as Amhara is difficult."

Link

[kadakuda]

maybe our views on rape are different then i guess. the examples by rahli are are social problems, not necessarily having sex when young problems. Sex and pregnancy are not the same, despite one leading to another. having sex is a choice, which i believe people should have the right to decide if they want to have it or not, same thing with pregnancy.

Child marriage (marriage is not sex) is also a different topic and also 100% social based. i am not agreeing, or disagreeing with it. i think that a lto of what actually happens, in reality, is forced marriage and thus consensual on paper, but deep down is not actually wanted...that to me is still rape. that said, if that 15 year old actually WANTS to get married, have sex and get pregnant, who am i to push my social beliefs on her and tell her no and throw her usband in jail?

im not trying to convince anyone of my personal beliefs in the right to choose what you do with your own body. I hold many strong beliefs that are far from popular. gay marriage, drug use, sexual activity when young, public nudity etc. Because i feel people should have the freedom to do to their body whtever they want so long as they are not physically endangering other creatures. I will probably draw shit form that stance, but i really believe in the right to freedom, even if it goes against my own conditioning, i feel they have the right to choose for them self and if I pushed my beliefs on them and stopped them from doing what they believe in I feel i would be no better than any other oppressive person.

i hold child porn and young sex in 2 different categories. young people wanting to have sex, or one young one older persona wanting to have sex, both actually wanting to, not being forced to against any ones will, is fine by me. Child porn is one person wanting and teh child either not wanting or not knowing (probably) and thus falls into a totally different category of intent.

the argument that sex with minors is bad is all social, thats my point. And any possible medical harm (I really dont know about any of that, so will just assume there must be if anyone brings it up) done is really the responsibility of the parents/guardians to talk with their child. Provide the info, truthfully, and let them decide like a mature person. These scenarios are exactly the same as the dug politics we face today. I think people have the right to do drugs, on themselves, if they choose. There are health risks with many, but that is the right of the human being to be able to decide. Or rather lack of rights in many modern age societies.

Am i saying its ok for a guy who gets off on kids and tries to trick girls *or boys* to have sex with them? no. I am saying that if the minor, and the adult, both have feelings for each other, at whateveer level, and both realize teh reality of sex and any possible dnagers, then ya I think that is their right to decide.

i will try to educate my kids against it as i am not comfortable. And i will really try to talk them out of it if something comes up. But in reality if my child at say 13 said they are truly in love with a 30 year old and everything seems to check out, i would far rather know about it than have them sneak off somewhere all the time and end up finding my kid in a dumpster somwhere. its easy for me to say now as i dont have teenage kids yet, but i hope that i am hopen enough, adn a good enough parent to teach them to make decisions that truly are the best ones they can make.

my wife is 8 years older than me and we are truly in love. if she was 21 and i was 13, and we got together i bet everyone would raise shit and put her in jail for stat. rape....but we are in love. Its nto right as we both would be consenting.

[ballzac]

I can see where you're coming from, but I think drawing the analogy between drug laws and child sex laws is flawed. Perhaps it is only due to social forces that sex with children cause so much harm. I really do not know if that is true or not, but for the sake of argument, I will take it as true. There is still a big difference between that and drug prohibition. The difference being that flouting drug laws, while more harmful within our society than in a society with a more open attitude both emotionally and legally, is till a personal choice that predominantly affects the person making that choice. However, there can be no denying that sex with a child harms that child (within the society in which we actually live) and therefore is no longer a personal choice, but a choice that an adult is imposing on a child that does not have the power or maturity to resist. Sex with children damages the child, and the adult they will become. Perhaps it would be different were our society different, but it's not. Therefore it is a harmful practice.

In addition to that, it would be much, much more difficult to prove that a child has been coerced, or forced, into sex. It would also be rarer for a child that had been raped (in the sense of physical force) to come forward. It would be much easier for an adult who wishes to have non-consensual sex with another person to target children than adults. How then would we safeguard against abuse if we allowed 'consensual' sex with children? This is reason enough to outlaw sex with children, notwithstanding the reasons I gave above.

Edited April 2, 2011 by ballzac

[rahli]

Traditional societies by definition give members very little choice, as a members role within the group is paramount and the individual is virtually none existent. As far as I know girls within traditional societies do not have the right to have sex for their own personal enjoyment and are often married young to ensure they are not "raped" before marriage. In many traditional societies (though many seek to hide the fact in today's world) young boys were encouraged to have sex with each other, or if you were lucky a goat, to further ensure that girls were not raped before marriage. Illiciet relations would likely result in certain death for both parties.

Marrage is consummated with the act of sex to provide progeny for the associated family unit. In traditional societies this family unit is likely much larger then today's nuclear family. Girls are biologicaly able to reproduce at a very early age as is evident in the article I posted and it is well known that many of these girls have difficult pregnancies resulting in incontinence issues and subsiquent social isolation. These are the girls we in the west hear about. It is likely many more die during childbirth. Your statement that young girls have sex in traditional societies so it is ok, was left out of context as the context is within marriage to produce children. The other choice is likely death through honor killing. You also state that girls are biologically able to reproduce so why shouldn't they have sex. The ongoing health and social problems associated with this type of relationship has convinced the Etheopian government to discourage the practice, going against the beliefs of their cultural majority.

Your argument when applied to a modern society where individuals have choice and individual rights still comes up against hurdles as you state that that the girls should have the right to have sex but that this does not neciceraly equate to pregnancy. It would be very difficult to allow an individual the right to have sex but not get pregnant. And if the girl does choose to get pregnant who is responsible for this? Admittedly the girl is unlikely to die or maintain ongoing health problems in the west thanks to modern medicine. But who will support the girl and her child, how will she finish her education which is vital to ensure the empowerment of both her and her offspring? Western society is not structured to support the relationships that you propose and traditional societies are not structured to repair the damage they cause.

[hutch]

when i teach my students and hear about somewhere the same age kid is raped, it is very upsetting.

 

I find this disturbing......Are you saying you teach children? Sorry mate but I wouldn't want you any where near my child if your beliefs are as you have written..I prey to God that no 15 year old girl comes to you for advise... especially about her desires to marry the old pervert down the road...your example of a 13 year old girl and a 30 year old man makes me a little sick I'm sorry....I bet a smooth and charming 30 something male would very easily seduce a 13 year old into the bedroom...and I also bet she would go there with him willingly....does that make it right in your mind...cause that is how I read what you wrote...and that I'm afraid is sick....

I would rather raise my child to grow into a mature and healthy adult that will make good decisions and they will have a much better chance of getting there with my guidance rather than me grooming her for the horny old prick up the road..

Your take on child porn is quit revealing...If two 11 year olds are banging away for the camera but their enjoying it then thats alright?

At what age do you think a child is ready to make grown up adult decisions? Do you think that if its consenting then its ok for you to watch? cause that is basically what you said...you don't have a problem with it if they all want to be doing it....Mate, I'm an adult and I have made many poor choices and regretted them later....don't you think a 14 year old boy sucking on an old mans dick might be something he may live to regret later?..he mightn't at the time but when he starts coughing up a few of the old mans pubes he may feel a little different..

Just got my wife to read you words for a female perspective....her suggestion! I should forward this thread to those same wonderful policemen who caught those other 184 sick people.....

Please tell me we are reading you wrong...somehow I don't think so....

[Sonny Jim]

As far as I can tell some of the arguments put here seem to come from people who are still children them selves. I don't mean that as an insult (synchro, I am talking to you lol), I mean it literally i.e maybe these posters are in the 15 to early twenties age group. I can understand how how people who still identify as young people (is that less offensive?) might not have a well developed sense of how these hypothetical situations could harm a young person. Also, they might not fully appreciate how different children are to adults and might not understand the innate desire to protect children that adults (especially parents) feel acutely.

I think the actual reasons why we as a society need to protect children from pedophilia and sexualisation have been put really well by hutch and rahli so far.

I agree with the prevention is better than cure approach to pedophilia that some members have posted about but I think anyone interested in helping pedophiles in this way must acknowledge and understand the reason for why parents need to protect their children from adults who don't understand how vulnerable children actually are. I hope we can go even further into this discussion and build a better understanding of this huge issue, which has become more than a discussion about pedophilia. I think we are talking about the difference between adults and children and the societal rules (good and bad)that come from those differences.

[Sheather]

I had a 20 minute conversation with a 9 year old at the park the other day, about our dogs. She was at the park by herself, I was under the impression that she lived next door, and that her mum was like, shouting distance away, but it was refreshing to not be looked at askance for spending more time than would take to humor her in actual conversation.

We talked about our dogs

Though off topic, it's slightly relevant to some of what has been discussed earlier.

[ballzac]

Just got my wife to read you words for a female perspective....her suggestion! I should forward this thread to those same wonderful policemen who caught those other 184 sick people.....

 

That's a bit harsh. I strongly disagree with his opinion, but it's still just an opinion. Opinions do shape our actions, and can therefore be harmful, but how can you seriously entertain the idea of calling the police on someone because they have an opinion?

[hutch]

That's a bit harsh. I strongly disagree with his opinion, but it's still just an opinion. Opinions do shape our actions, and can therefore be harmful, but how can you seriously entertain the idea of calling the police on someone because they have an opinion?

 

Maybe harsh mate but thats what she said....I don't want to argue over whether I was reading an opinion or statements of fact...After reading some of his opinions I am left with the impression I wouldn't want him anywhere near my children? ....all those 184 people this thread is about had opinions....maybe it was one of those opinions that was brought to the notice of the relevant authorities that put these despicable people in jail....When it comes to the safety of my or any child from a predator I would step in...sorry but thats how I am...old school..shoot me

[ballzac]

Many people in this thread have expressed a desire to kill or castrate people, and are of the opinion that it is okay to do so. Does that mean we should call the cops on them? Vigilante action is against the law too.

[hutch]

Many people in this thread have expressed a desire to kill or castrate people, and are of the opinion that it is okay to do so. Does that mean we should call the cops on them? Vigilante action is against the law too.

 

If you think the threat serious enough yes, by all means....If you really think that someone here is going to do that then you would be very irresponsible if you didn't. So far I don't think anybody here is really going to do that...unless of course they catch some body messing with a child...I do however question with suspicion a view that condones sex between a child and an adult or between children just because all parties agreed........and so far I am still of the opinion this person teaches children....if alarm bells don't sound for you over that I am surprised...