New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. (Cactaceae) ("San Pedro") and their relevance to shamanic practice.

[trucha]

Ogunboded's published article was created out of his master's thesis and rewritten into a format specifically for submission for publication in Journal of Ethnopharmacology.

Failure to do that usually means failure to see publication. Every journal almost requires a specific rewrite of any article in order to fit them. In fact prior to writing a final draft of a piece, selecting the target publication then visiting their author guidelines to see how that work needs to be crafted in terms of its presentation and content is mandatory if a paper wants to see print in a peer reviewed journal.

Getting published has many political aspects.

I'm familiar with Dickison and also with some serious eradication efforts so it could be true use was left that was driven into secrecy.

Miguel Kavlin was unable to locate any traditional use in Bolivia despite being Bolivian. He went on to found the Sun-Moon center which employed bridgesii for "ceremonialist" purposes. He learned what he practices not from traditional Bolivian sources but from working with ayahuasceros and san pedro shamans farther north as well as North American medicine people such as Joseph Rael. His stated intention is to unite the the energy of the eagle and the condor by merging elements of the Sun dance and the Moon dance in a form he called the Long Dance in an article on this in Shaman's Drum some years ago.

Stories of mass destructions of cactus stands by the military and Western "hippies" having their long hair publicly shaved from their heads around the time of Dickison's piece in Head could certainly be some motivation to keep mum. Approaching 40 years have past. That is more than a generation so history could easily have been recreated.

I have a number of problems with DIckison though despite how intriguing it was.

There are a variety of things going on with scopulicola.

Part of which may be bad IDs but sorting out the details of that one is still underway.

Seedlings tend to have longer spines and be spiner than adults. For me that was not lost until they passed around three feet or so tall but after that point the spiny ones I got from Horst grew smooth and developed that downward notch under the areole scop can do. Photos taken a few years apart of single plants don't even look like they are in the same lineage or clone line much less being the same plant.

I believe that I posted a bunch of images here of some of these some time ago?

I also noticed that when they are kept aggressively over pruned they get spinier again (or stay spiny) - especially if never permitted to grow up.

What I've encountered though is that cuttings taken from plants that look adult tend to retain that appearance and keep short spines. Cuttings taken from young plants or compromised plants often express more spines until they can get some more size.

Despite how consistent many scops appear to be, some strains of it DO appear variable but who knowns how many plants or stands or populations Ritter collected FR991 from. Just like other trichs such as pachanoi and bridgesii a fair range of variables between clone lines should be expected - especially if Ritter collected from multiple plants. I presently think spine length is less valuable than the spine configuration within the areole itself.

There is also another nice thing to ponder that being the plants in Oz started from FR991 seeds in the early 60s and now are freely pollinating each other and producing not just seed but generations of new offspring from the seeds of FR991 clone lines pollinating OTHER FR991 clone lines. That to me seems like a recipe for a healthy future.

I suspect Murple's comment was a joke being directed at him. He described collecting from a hedge a quarter mile long with every branch cut so I could easily see a Bolivian asking him that in fun.

Edited April 16, 2011 by trucha

[Gunter]

I recall an girl from Venezuela talking about some use of cacti that was recreational and considered spiritual but by no means ritualized except for the preparation, which involved only the outer green tissue being boiled, the plants were validus like in the description... I think that this type of thing could happen easily in several countries, it was somewhat underground and certainly not part of a shamanic tradition, but the people teaching the use of the plant were the 'elders' of the town and the cacti, though growing in the desert and untended, were said to have been used for this purpose for a long but unspecific amount of time. If such use did occur with bridgesii and other plants like puquiensis, it would not be uncovered by anthropologists or historians. I believe that there is a strong possibility that a lot of the ethnobotanical knowledge of the region was eradicated over the last 500 years.

I agree that Murples comment was in a joke context, but it did seem to indicate recreational use was a strong probability, as opposed to shamanic use. I don't think an andean cosmology or shamanic ontology is required for use to be traditional, i think we romanticize other cultures and so come to expect things that are in some cases unrealistic. I feel that a lot of what we call shamanism these days is itself a non-traditional construct that is geared towards tourists and new age types in a self help context. As an example of this the use of Ayahuasca in regards to warfare and sorcery is known to be traditional, but is largely absent from modern presentations of traditional use. There is been a strong de-emphasis upon tradition when it does not fit the expectations of enlightened psychedelic use, the new age culture is largely a feel good movement that is willing to ignore authenticity when it isn't peaceful or doesn't fit the hippy model of love, sunshine and rainbows. and yet more than any warrior culture, ours is a culture of war and violence...

Edited April 9, 2011 by Archaea

[Gunter]

Given what i have heard about seasonal variation, it seems that it would be potentially informative to run identical tests on the same materials in an alternate season. Since the winter in Peru corresponds to the summer in North America, it seems interesting that the plant with the greatest content of mescaline corresponds to a season opposite of the other plants, which were not shipped from Peru and did not have to wait in postal limbo for many weeks. I'd like to see identical tests run on all the same material in the future, in winter preferably and see if the results that were obtained the first time around can be confirmed. Perhaps another student can do a confirmation project as a master thesis?... don't i wish

[trucha]

I think everyone would like to see seasonal fluctuations studied. I would imagine that will occur. It would be nice to see it done on both sides of the equator.

Changes during storage is another area worth investigating to see which side of the controversy has reality.

Recreational or even personal spiritual use of cacti likely occurs on an individual or perhaps familial basis more places than we will probably ever know. Examples, *one family* in Chile who was encountered brewing a san pedro they propagated, people in northern Argentina propagating some sort of semispiny pachanoi that was obviously being consumed (or at least repeatedly and intensively harvested from), some people in Argentina employing large columnars from Argentina and from Bolivia - also on a personal basis not as a cultural tradition, there is also the mythic oddnessess surrounding cardon, senita and saguaro all being viewed as former human beings who are still spiritually and magically powerful as living beings (the book "People of Land & Sea" makes some intriguing comments on this), and there is the Peruvian globular picture that has yet to be unveiled in a meaningful way. I can't imagine there is not a corresponding and larger set of lost people and forgotten plants time has known that will never come to light.

The Seni would probably be among the most interesting ones to study with regards to the northern far SW.

Something tangential but important is that two of the 0.0% reports from pachanoi used material growing in South America. Details and references to that work are included in Bode's piece in one of the tables. That table contains an attempt to summarize all more recent work that I was at the time aware of appearing in the literature.

Students are also often create their own projects if they are willing to think it through well. Undergraduates can opt for something that UT Austin calls "Plan 2" and write their own undergraduate degree program if they can state their case well enough when entering the university. Dr. Terry received his most recent doctorate (I think he has three PhDs now?) as a result of a program he proposed for studying the molecular systematics of Lophophora. He was the one proposing that as the subject of his dissertation and line or study to Texas A&M not vice versa.

People often have more power to do what they want to see done than they might suppose.

Assorted conversations at this forum and offline recently are making me more aware of that as it applies to myself as well.

A thorough study of cactus biochemistry or alkaloid production mechanisms or understanding biodynamic fluctuations or understanding the role of fungal endophytes with regards to alkaloid production and just how far this extends into the plant kingdom all would seem timely as some future doctoral candidates' dissertation topics? OR if done as a master's thesis it would require only a rehash and deeper exploration of what was already done and known. Both approaches would be valuable to see occurring.

Edited April 10, 2011 by trucha

[trucha]

If my memory was right that Peruvian shipment took something like 14 months as they tried to ship it into the US with no documentation of any sort. That last part no doubt caused most of the problem.

Amazing anything survived or eventually actually made it.

I believe that everything was planted in pots and rooted before being analyzed.

Edited April 10, 2011 by trucha

[mutant]

Awesome update for this thread by everyone - very cool to read about the so much lesser know scop. Hey, KT can you expand further on the scop "spine arrangement per areole" thing?

I wonder how could someone have access to make this research, then do it and not take more photos of the cacti, nor note which part of plant was being examined [active growing tip, sleeping tip, mid section, older hardied cut? what] and what conditions it was growing before to examining ....

Seems like waste of a potential, like Archaea said. Lets hope next pioneers will read our criticisms... It would be pretty cool if we could fetch some more of these data.

[BBGONE]

I think everyone would like to see seasonal fluctuations studied. I would imagine that will occur. It would be nice to see it done on both sides of the equator.

Changes during storage is another area worth investigating to see which side of the controversy has reality.

A thorough study of cactus biochemistry or alkaloid production mechanisms or understanding biodynamic fluctuations or understanding the role of fungal endophytes with regards to alkaloid production and just how far this extends into the plant kingdom all would seem timely as some future doctoral candidates' dissertation topics? OR if done as a master's thesis it would require only a rehash and deeper exploration of what was already done and known. Both approaches would be valuable to see occurring.

 

I think that to conduct those studies it is necesary to obtain large quantities of the same clone.

This best can be done by propagating plants by tissue culture method.

In this case there whould be a lot of plants with the same genetics,

that could be compareed after treating (growing) them under different conditions.

[trucha]

[[[i've learned some better information so have corrected the following as needed:

[[Edits marked with brackets]]

On scop areoles, I'll either get some photos resized and uploaded here or will post a link if my memory is right this is already online at largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com as imagery would be clearer than descriptions of that.

While some was out of his control or even outside of his available knowledge as the restrictions placed on samples meant a bit of scrambling and wide ranging sourcing (by me not by Bode) in order to get that many samples for them to analyze

I think though part of those questions might be answered from looking at the thesis itself, some might be discernible from the published paper in between what is in the table and what is said in the text and still others answerable from the images online?

I can answer some of this?

The plants came as healthy pairs of cuttings except for the case of puquiensis where only one cutting was available (or in one case, scopulicola, a cutting and a smaller sized seedling but in that case both were siblings that had come from the same source and seed lot - FR991 seed planted by NMCR- one had been growing in Mendocino and growing slowly and the other had moved from Mendocino to Sonoma several years earlier where it started growing more quickly - the latter being what was sampled of course - both were actually a surprising number of years old since both had struggled through years of life in Texas when I still lived there) but I'd have to check for something more exact)

Only one of each pair was examined as keeping one untouched and the original base was required for a reference voucher. One KK242 did develop rot and die before sampling so a replacement cutting had to be requested from its provider who has a large mother plant with many branches.

All had intact apical meristems.

All were planted and rooted before sampling began. [[All were in active growth phase.]]

Plants for sampling saw their tip half decapitated and then isolation of the green parts from it for extraction. This is a nice approach for using as a comparative standard as it eliminates a lot of problems in processing. The variable slime content in the assorted trichs can really screw with good comparisons between samples as the mucilage itself can bind up alkaloids. [[This is why this lab practice was started- with Cruz Sanchez in the 1940s]]]

[[That part had an error. If the plants were short their tips were used. If they were longer a more basal section was used and the tips replanted.]]

Untouched pair and the [[remainder of the subjects]] with new growth were maintained in cultivation as references for more detailed work on other alkaloids later as well as DNA work (all of that being other people's planned research as the first requires an actual chemist, not an aspiring botany master candidate, and the second will be done by someone with experience in that particular area and time to do the work as it requires travel to access the facilities required).

Growing conditions started all over the place then turned into an indoor in pots situation. If reading the sources most should be inferrable as to where they started, if not actually clearly stated? Pachanoi came from Matucana, KK242 from the Deep South, the rest from California. They languished in West Texas for a while before testing. That part of Texas can be a hard place for trichs due to high summer heat and cold winters.

They would have been healthy and actively growing when harvested but since they were established in pots and maintained for some months after harvest, healing and rerooting I'm not sure how relevant that is.

I can find out what time of year, perhaps even what time of day samplings occurred.

[[The work progressed over the course of more than a year with the work occurring mainly on weekdays and mainly in the mornings. Plants were prepared, dried, extracted and analyzed one at a time.]]]

Maybe my memory is wrong but, as mentioned, I seem to recall there being comments about the plants included that would enable a person to know at least something about them?

Please check and if you find that there are other specific questions you still have I might be able to answer them or find an answer.

Edited April 18, 2011 by trucha

[trucha]

BBGONE, that is a quite large controlled project you speak of. It requires both some time and a very experienced analytical chemist with interest in this area.

Edited April 18, 2011 by trucha

[BBGONE]

Pachanoi came from Matucana, KK242 from the Deep South, the rest from California. They languished in West Texas for a while before testing. That part of Texas can be a hard place for trichs due to high summer heat and cold winters.

 

Interesting what had become later to that T. Pachanoi?

Very interesting clone.

Would be nice to have it be growing in my own garden:)

[George]

That looks like my "small patch", it does not like the sun, grows best under trees. The close up pictures is a bit decieving because of a lack of size ref, the body is much smaller habit than that of juuls for example.

It goes past the miracle grow green towards a dark green-blue in the shade, hence the black, the camera had some under exposure pushing it a little furhter. I had good shot's of it at the nook a while back but I deleted them all, and shared all those cut's I had. I only have my little cut that's getting all the love it needs. It wasted two seasons in the sun, it stuns in the sun and grows some longer spines. I planted it in the shade and it grew an inch in a month showing me it's happy. It's spines is really thin when they grow at all. I thought of it as a bridgesii in a patch disguise couple of times.

I think it's about time photo's of the cactus is supplied with the results so it's at least a move forward, and allso a leap backwards if you know what I mean.

Edited April 12, 2011 by PD.

[mutant]

Awesome info thanks. Hey, I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I am grateful I read this paper and power to you and your work amigo!

[trucha]

I sure do agree about photos. Since the first time I ever read an account of someone analyzing a cactus I wished workers could be bothered to include photographs of what they actually were studying (a number of accounts from the better research workers do mention taking and retaining photographs as hard copies in their own files). I now understand its the venue that makes it impossible but thanks to the internet that can be worked around. The sad quality of the images is entirely my fault and doing due to time of year and situation available for photographing during a couple of short visits. It would have been nice if the subjects could have been photographed as they were collected of course.

It would also be nice if publishers would realize the value this has in the area of phytochemistry in general not just cacti.

Same story with recording every variable possible, dates, time of days, storage, time of life, whatever. There can't be too many facts surrounding the sampling be recorded except perhaps the color of the researcher's clothes that day.

BBGONE, you might want to locate a copy of that paper by Helmlin & Brenneisen. Its likely to be at Erowid but its not hard to obtain in hard copy or locate details online. You might find similar genetic stock much closer to home. Switzerland might be a nice place for a vacation and plant tour.

Mutant, don't worry about it. And don't worry about speaking your mind or offending me. I would encourage you to. If I am wrong or have problems you perceive the best thing you can do is call me on it. Really that's true for anyone. And calling people on their shit or bringing erroneous thought to their attention is also among the truly nicest things anyone can actually do for any real friend of theirs.

Also I don't think you said anything untrue and which all of us would not agree with. I haven't knowingly said anything untrue either.

Edited April 12, 2011 by trucha

[trucha]

On Juuls something to be aware of on those assorted variable results from gcms some years back is that three of the different results came from a single column looked at three times over the course of some time with one of them being growth resulting from grafting it. That particular trio of numbers has intrigued me ever since.

Please note I learned of and added some updated information farther above.

Edited April 13, 2011 by trucha

[Gunter]

On Juuls something to be aware of on those assorted variable results from gcms some years back is that three of the different results came from a single column looked at three times over the course of some time with one of them being growth resulting from grafting it. That particular trio of numbers has intrigued me ever since.

 

I guess that means that any single study of any cactus in the group cannot be taken as much of an indication of anything in any broad sense

[trucha]

Exactly.

I'm presently not sure that a single plant analysis can reliably be taken to mean much of anything about that same plant at different times of day or different times of year or involving any other part of the same plant - maybe on the same column. This likely gets obscured due to plants being batched for analysis or use?

One fact I've been repeatedly struck by is that a plant will typically have a single concentration number published only when it has been looked at just one time. Most separate analysis also report different compositions. Its widely assumed this is the result of variations in workers or approaches or maybe variations between different plants but that could be premature.

This area needs some real work -- all I have at this point is a bunch of questions.

Archaea- I also emailed some updated information to a discussion of some questions that you sent recently.

[Gunter]

i've heard time and time again that M is found in greater concentration in these plants in winter,

that and certain post harvesting methods, and pre-harvesting factors are also associated with increased or decreased M content

coupled with variable chemistry from a single clone, the only thing that is clear is how little actually is... as far as understanding and predicting the chemistry of these amazing plants.

A lifetime of research seems to have the capacity to generate more questions than answers, i can only hope that people quit pretending that we really know that much about these plants, their chemistry and taxonomy. Some people want to present these plants as understood, they seem to offer answers but no questions and don't seem to be active in an type of investigation or exploration of these plants. I really enjoy that over the years there have been people actively debating, exploring and considering this material, even if it is from behind a keyboard, in a lab or from a horticultural collection.

I'd like to see a genera protocol developed that can standardize explorations of this confusing group of plants, so that future generations can utilize the platform to further the study in a significant way instead of having to compensate for the confusion arising due to circular citation methods, random hearsay and taxonomic blunders.

[trucha]

There is also some suggestion that is true for northern species and southern species and this persists when changing hemispheres.

My present suspicion is its less a function of seasons than the point in the flowering cycle.

I'd love to hear the results of a carefully controlled look at this subject.

The results of Knox & Clarke and Knox, Clarke & Parfitt on compositional variations within the body parts of a single Mammillaria might be looked at to really add some complications and questions to designing that study. I believe this work is available online?

Edited April 13, 2011 by trucha

[trucha]

Concerning

 

 

Perhaps the images at this page are useful:

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/peruvian_cacti/peruvian_cacti.html

Edited April 14, 2011 by trucha

[CβL]

Thanks for those KT. I'm quite interested in learning more about the [biologic] purpose of this alkaloid, of which we all have some degree of interest in. And I think that lesser-known plants like these would hopefully have less of the mark of man on their genes. Maybe the answer (if there is one), will be clearer if we 'ask' these plants. Maybe they have a completely different alkaloid?

[Mycot]

That cacti second on the right is very dark although other images of the same strain on the site are much lighter which I find puzzling.

[George]

Perhaps the images at this page are useful:

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/peruvian_cacti/peruvian_cacti.html

 

Schweet thanx.

The cuts 1-5 from left to right in the underexposed pic = the first 5 specimens in KT's link in the same order.

[trucha]

Why plants make alkaloids is really anyone's opinion at this point. Most plausible proposal (or at least the most easily tested empiricly) is as a feeding deterrent. Whether that is the primary function or a secondary effect from their presence who knows.

It might be worth commenting that what was ordered was two cuts each of these 5 and two cuts each of another three that were not pictured.

They sent four of the five and none of the others but a bunch of assorted peruvianus duplicates.

They identified the Armatocereus as a Trichocereus bridgesii and the Weberbauerocereus/Haageocereus (or whatever) as a Trichocereus spachianus which might say something about their identifications?

Darkness/lightness in the 5 tips image is an artifactual contrast issue. The image was smallish so I had to enlarge it doing a serial "10% stepup and save at max quality" - which is only a good approach as a last resort as its never good for image quality especially when the image lacks quality to begin with. The pachanoi is overly dark while the Armatocereus is overly light.

The cuttings also spent a heck of a long time in the mail and in the hands of Customs/USDA

Edited April 16, 2011 by trucha

[M S Smith]

After pissing around with the photo a bit...

[BBGONE]

The cuttings also spent a heck of a long time in the mail and in the hands of Customs/USDA as the vendor included neither a phytosanitary certificate nor labels. If this has been a simple retail order shipped to an individual it NEVER would have made it into the US. I mention this in the event people try to order from those particular collectors. I won't post their name but they are simple enough to locate if someone is enough of a masochist to want to.

My experiences with ordering live plants from Knize were pleasant and cheap by comparison.

 

I think that it was because it was large order.

Small letters (less than 2 kg) easily go through customs, because the majority of them is never inspected.

I buy small plants on ebay, and all goes succesfuly.

Can not tell about USA or Australia, but seems it is universal rules.

Trucha, could you please investigate a little more about T. scopulicola?

Means its chemical analisys on different plants.

In that article, the Scopulicola was a bit more spiny than Australian one (that seems more authentic).

Spineness may be due it was not pure strain, but some hybrid.

Edited April 15, 2011 by BBGONE