Extreme Reaction to SAB Zonk Product.

[stiched up]

how bout you change the post title to "EXTREME REACTION TO CONCOCTION OF DRUGS"

Zonk doesn't have any kind of warning on the label. I definitely think it needs one now.

I thought the same thing about the GFJ, surely I am not the only person who likes grapefruit juice!

please just investigate the substances you induce before mixing with things like tramadol and gfj ,lots of drugs are sold without warning labels lots of "overdoses" are caused by peoples tolerances being to high (100 mg tramadol is a fair whack!!) and a large amount of substance having to be consumed then one day mix with the wrong thing and bang respritory failure or whatever

theres many other options for benzo withdrawels

[ThunderIdeal]

i thought if it was an issue the medication itself will warn you away from grapefruit juice. always read the info.

[Chiral]

so its not the grape juice in-particular, but the fact of alkaline gut from it, an many things could cause this state.. is that what i'm seeing here?

i swear 2 or 3 beers steadily, then taking anything will enhance and bring on the onset much quicker, i'm sure its more the way it speeds up the metabolism, perhaps combined with alkaline juice could be the go.

 

No you are getting it mixed up...disregard my amphetamine post and alkalinity, grapefruit juice is highly acidic not alkaline.

I don't fully understand the mechanics of added acidic substances to the gut and faster onset, though I tend to think that there is some sort of reaction in the stomach when another type of strong acid is introduced, possibly the reaction is creating a lot of extra oxygen and passes the active to blood faster in larger amounts before it gets a chance to be metabolized.

My Mum used to break out in a rash and spots quite soon after drinking any type of acidic fruit juice, it was quite remarkable how fast this process was, it shows you just how fast this stuff happens from ingestion-reaction-passing on to extremities and brain.

[PhoenixSon]

.

Edited July 18, 2010 by spacemonk

[Torsten]

Grapefruit juice is not just a potentiator by changing pH in the gut, but actually inhibits certain CYP enzymes in the liver. This is a well know reaction especially for opiates and comes as a warning on many opiate products.

The substances in zonk are not aimed at opiate receptors, but rather at GAGA receptors. however, they are also reliant on CYP enzymes for elimination. In general it is advisable not to consume GFJ with any drugs.

Herbal products can have very strong effects and can interfere with medications so it is not a good idea to combine them without trialling them. eg, why take 2 caps in a 3-way drug/food combination that you were not sure of where it would lead? why not just one? or even a half?

Zonk has only had 2 reactions that did not involve other substances and both of these were anxiety attacks - ie it is hard to know how much was caused by the zonk and how much was escalated by the person. Over such a long time [we've been selling these for 5 or 6 years now I think] we would expect to see such reactions to just about anythng, including plain herbs.

However, ther eis little we can do about interactions with other drugs. Firstly because we have found that everyone ignores them anyway, and secondly because if you list 'some' interactions, but not all of them, then this gives people a false sense of safety. Bottom line is that any combination is unpredictable regardless of whether this is a plain single herb or a carefully balanced concotion.

Bread, I'd be curious for any results if you ever try the tramadol GFJ combo again. I'll try the GFJ zonk combo myself to see if this makes much difference. It may very well be the 3 way combo that does it though.

[Bread Filter]

how bout you change the post title to "EXTREME REACTION TO CONCOCTION OF DRUGS"

Zonk doesn't have any kind of warning on the label. I definitely think it needs one now.

I thought the same thing about the GFJ, surely I am not the only person who likes grapefruit juice!

please just investigate the substances you induce before mixing with things like tramadol and gfj ,lots of drugs are sold without warning labels lots of "overdoses" are caused by peoples tolerances being to high (100 mg tramadol is a fair whack!!) and a large amount of substance having to be consumed then one day mix with the wrong thing and bang respritory failure or whatever

theres many other options for benzo withdrawels

 

Wow. Bad day stitched up?

I have done lots on "investigating" about the substances I have consumed. I was seeking some anecdotal evidence from anyone else who may have had a similar interaction.

Has everyone missed the part where I said it was a "SR" tramal product? In a glass of coke they don't break down in 30 minutes.

My problems occurred within the 30 minutes mark and were completely alleviated by one piece of bread. As the Tramal is a sustained release product it would have only been taking effect at the point where I came out of the extreme sedation.

In my opinion 100mg of SR tramal is not a "fair whack" and is the standard SR dose prescribed by my GP for severe pain.

[Bread Filter]

Herbal products can have very strong effects and can interfere with medications so it is not a good idea to combine them without trialling them. eg, why take 2 caps in a 3-way drug/food combination that you were not sure of where it would lead? why not just one? or even a half?

 

I have been using your Zonk product for years now and have easily spent over $500 on it, suffice to say I am very experienced with the product. I was aiming for sedation and as the label states that requires 2 caps. As I have already stated I was not seeking potentiation and had drunk the GFJ as part of my daily routine. I substituted the 2 Zonk capsules in place of a 5mg Diazepam that was then of my daily routine that was being considered to be changed to Zonk. I took the same amount of Zonk capsules that I have always taken for sedation then had the extreme reaction.

I came on here to try and find out if anyone else had any similar experiences. I am regretful as I can possibly be for making the mistake of consuming 2 zonk tablets with anything other than a 4 hour empty stomach and will certainly not be making the mistake in future. I posted the experience on here to try and better understand what happened to me. Next time something like this happens I will not make the same mistake again and will stay quiet or post it elsewhere even as this flys in the face of my harm reduction goals.

Bread, I'd be curious for any results if you ever try the tramadol GFJ combo again. I'll try the GFJ zonk combo myself to see if this makes much difference. It may very well be the 3 way combo that does it though.

 

I definitely will never be doing that again.

[stiched up]

yes sorry im not trying to give you a hard time but a bit worried by your statements !!! i get all funny on one 30 mg tramadol so theres def tollerance differences there!!!

[Bread Filter]

yes sorry im not trying to give you a hard time but a bit worried by your statements !!! i get all funny on one 30 mg tramadol so theres def tollerance differences there!!!

 

Is that an instant release formulation? If so it explains why you get "funny". That is not too different dosage wise from a 12 hour 100mg sustained release product. In fact your dose is probably stronger.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Bread Filter

[Evil Genius]

I definitely will never be doing that again.

Well, that also solves your Problems. The combination of drugs that you ingested there, was a little bit brave anyway. I believe that the Zonk product definately has the least to do with causing those bad side effects. Even if you potentiate it with GFJ. Nevertheless, i wouldnt suggest doing that. And im not even talking about adding benzos and tramadol to that already unpredictable mix. To be honest, you´ve been lucky you havent had a potentially deadly grand mal seizure from just the combination of GFJ and the tramadol alone. I had 2 tramdol induced grand mal seizures within a very short time and when i woke up, i was lying in my own pool of blood and had almost lost my eye, bitten off my toungue and had torn out my eyebrow piercing.

Let me explain it like this. If you mix chemical a with chemical b and chemical c, the result isnt always like you´d expect it to be. The effect is NOT a plus b plus c. It´s a TIMES b TIMES c. And there is no way to predict the outcome as there are too many unknowns. Like the other food you ate that day, your state of health, mental ups and downs etc.

Well, you have to see the good in this. Those are the situations that get you back on track. All the best! bye Eg

Edited July 19, 2010 by Evil Genius

[Bread Filter]

I definitely will never be doing that again.

Well, that also solves your Problems. The combination of drugs that you ingested there, was a little bit brave anyway. I believe that the Zonk product definately has the least to do with causing those bad side effects. Even if you potentiate it with GFJ. Nevertheless, i wouldnt suggest doing that. And im not even talking about adding benzos and tramadol to that already unpredictable mix. To be honest, you´ve been lucky you havent had a potentially deadly grand mal seizure from just the combination of GFJ and the tramadol alone. I had 2 tramdol induced grand mal seizures within a very short time and when i woke up, i was lying in my own pool of blood and had almost lost my eye, bitten off my toungue and had torn out my eyebrow piercing.

Let me explain it like this. If you mix chemical a with chemical b and chemical c, the result isnt always like you´d expect it to be. The effect is NOT a plus b plus c. It´s a TIMES b TIMES c. And there is no way to predict the outcome as there are too many unknowns. Like the other food you ate that day, your state of health, mental ups and downs etc.

Well, you have to see the good in this. Those are the situations that get you back on track. All the best! bye Eg

 

Where did I mention combining Benzo's into this mix? Have people read the entire thread? I come from a harm reduction background where this kind of severe reaction is treated very seriously. I know now not to raise HR issues on the Corroboree again. I don't like it but it that is the way it is here then so be it.

Torsten is the one suggesting I try the combo again. I never said I would try that combo on purpose again. This is not about potentiating but the issue of the Zonk product, which in my opinion, has some issues that need to be addressed. Sounds like a warning label stating "do not mix with drugs or other medication" will not even cover it.

Sorry to hear that you had problems with seizures and Tramal EG, from my reading seizures and tramal are quite common. Have you read the part where I have repeatedly stated that the tramal wouldn't have taken effect yet and I believe the whole situation was caused by the GFJ? By the way I didn't have anything even remotely like a seizure.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Bread Filter

[Chiral]

Warning labels on foods, herbal remedies or pharmaceuticals is a highly contentious area, where would it satisfactorily end...loaf of bread with warning on it saying..."do not use real butter on this bread as prolonged use could cause you to get fat"...there are an infinite amount of mixtures people can come up with, not even 1% could be covered in warnings on labels.

Perhaps the best generic warning label would be.."don't be a dickhead with our product"

[Evil Genius]

oh yeah, you took the ZONK instead of the valium, right. My bad. Makes your combination a little less careless. Still careless though.

We are just looking for the cause of this and if you link serious side effects with a herbal product, you´ll have to be open for a discussion about possible interactions that could have caused it. It´s just that anytime you combine diffrent drugs, you cant blame it on one certain drug out of the mix. Im always suprised when people take GFJ with opiates or other drugs and wonder when they end up being totally wrecked. It´s a VERY well known potentiator and i still wonder how people around here cant know it yet.

"do not mix with drugs or other medication"

This applies for ANY kind of herb , tea or medicamentation. Even for most spices. I dont think that labeling could hurt if it´s possible from a legal point of view. But we´re living in a world of chemical interactions and each and every meal or drink we prepare is homemade pharmacy. It´s common sense and in you very own best interest not mix them wildly.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Evil Genius

[Bread Filter]

Warning labels on foods, herbal remedies or pharmaceuticals is a highly contentious area, where would it satisfactorily end...loaf of bread with warning on it saying..."do not use real butter on this bread as prolonged use could cause you to get fat"...there are an infinite amount of mixtures people can come up with, not even 1% could be covered in warnings on labels.

Perhaps the best generic warning label would be.."don't be a dickhead with our product"

 

I don't care what names you call me, I am going to stand up for myself regardless.

I had a legitimate health concern from a product that was sold to me making a pharmaceutical claim. I had a legitimate issue with said product then came here to try and find out what was causing the problem and to make sure no one else had to experience what I went through. I am not trying to bad mouth anyones product here, in fact I have done the opposite but we obviously have an elephant in the room.

This is a product that I had used countless times before and had never had any problems. The only new chemicals in the mix was the GFJ. Years ago they were repeatedly being recommended over the counter for sleeping after a "big night out" and I am sure that they still are. I hate to think of the chemical interactions there.

No wonder so many people disappear from this board.

[Bread Filter]

oh yeah, you took the ZONK instead of the valium, right. My bad. Makes your combination a little less careless. Still careless though.

We are just looking for the cause of this and if you link serious side effects with a herbal product, you´ll have to be open for a discussion about possible interactions that could have caused it.

Exactly. That is why I came here. I am completely bewildered by the name calling. I didn't ask to be attacked.

It´s just that anytime you combine diffrent drugs, you cant blame it on one certain drug out of the mix. Im always suprised when people take GFJ with opiates or other drugs and wonder when they end up being totally wrecked. It´s a VERY well known potentiator and i still wonder how people around here cant know it yet.

"do not mix with drugs or other medication"

This applies for ANY kind of herb , tea or medicamentation. Even for most spices. I dont think that labeling could hurt if it´s possible from a legal point of view. But we´re living in a world of chemical interactions and each and every meal or drink we prepare is homemade pharmacy. It´s common sense and in you very own best interest not mix them wildly.

 

Point taken. I see what you are getting at especially with something like nutmeg for example. Maybe I need to rethink my strategy regarding the relabeling request. Regardless I should be able to come on here and express my views and feelings without being attacked. I feel that this is an issue that needs exposure and I have every right to raise awareness to it.

For the record I haven't posted this thread anywhere else, maybe it is better suited to Advanced Drug Discussion?

[Chiral]

Hey hey...I'm not calling anyone names...that comment was not directed at anyone at all, rather a poke at humans in general, people need to take responsibility for their own actions, there has in the past been way to many opportunistic people who sue others due their own misuse of a product rather than some common sense.

Once again, I did not call anyone or you in particular a dickhead...sheesh.

FWIW this thread is informative and of importance for harm reduction, drug awareness and education, can't we see through the toungue in cheek comments and not take everything so personally.

[ThunderIdeal]

it wasn't really tactful chiral, i cringed a bit.

retrospectively, my comment was a bit pointless cuz i was talking about stuff from a pharmacy (quite often i think i've seen GFJ among the long lists of contraindications).

[Torsten]

I know now not to raise HR issues on the Corroboree again.

That's silly. There is certainly an amount of 'don't blame others if you are going to mix up multi cocktails of substances' and I think this is some of the frustration that is coming out in some of the narky responses, but that's more about the way you presented the issue rather than the issue itself. I've seen people get anxiety attacks from culinary herbs like chervil, heart arhythmias from echinacea, and violent rages from mucuna, so I would certainly not discount any report of negative reactions to a potent product like zonk. But to be honest there is not much that can be done about this situation unless some of the variables are eliminated.

Torsten is the one suggesting I try the combo again.

NO I DID NOT!!!! Please read my post again.

The problem is that the information of your experience is pretty useless unless there is some corroboration. So either someone else might post about a tramadol zonk reaction some time in the future, or maybe a zonk GFJ reaction, or maybe all three. As a single experience, with so many other variables [including things we havent't even looked at yet such as foods, underlying psychological conditions, etc] there is just not much else we can do other than record this for future reference, or do some experimenting [hence my suggestion of the 2-way combos].

Sounds like a warning label stating "do not mix with drugs or other medication" will not even cover it.

The ingredients in zonk are the same as in foods and herbal teas. Do you suggest these shoudl be labelled as well? Do we need to put big warnign stickers on our water lillies in the nursery in case someone nibbles on a fresh flower? I mean, how far would you like this taken? I am serious. I would really like to know what you think should be done. But please also justify why it should be done to zonk and not the other products that are freely available.

You say you have a lot of experience with zonk. Have you ever taken 3 or more caps? Would you say the nasty experience you had was simply an overdose or was it a different experience altogether? What I am getting at is, that if zonk is potentiated by GFJ then this would simply make the zonk stronger, but wouldn't really change the effect much. The 2 caps would feel like 3 or 4 caps. Obviously there may have been some anxiety involved as well due to the nature of the experience, but just try and imagine that away.

Just re-read your intial post and have a question. You stated:"took 2 Zonk pills in the place of 5mg valium as I was looking into using the Zonk product as a valium replacement." This implies that you take valium regularly. When was the last dose of valium, how high was the dose, and when was the dose before that? How often do you take valium?

[Bush Turkey]

i tried GFJ and 1 ZONK last night and it didnt feel different from just 1 ZONK. id say its the tramadol. ill try GFJ and 2 ZONK tonight

[Torsten]

actually, I don't think it is the GFJ, tramadol, or even the zonk, but will wait for breadfilter's reply first.

[Bush Turkey]

2 nights on ZONK and 2 nightmares in a row. i never usally remember my dreams but these were vivid! weird@!

[Max Cady]

zonk's fine by me after taking 3 once I found when I had to wake early for a shift my body felt super relaxed and heavy and hard to get started my head said stuff it chuck a sicky so I did it all worked out ok in the end

[Bread Filter]

This is a response I have worried long and hard about and honestly at one point considered taking my bat and ball and going home by leaving this community, but that's a cheap way out. This community has taught me so much in the short time I have been contributing here and I have grown immensely as a person because of it. It is for these very reasons I have decided to have another go at trying to resolve this situation. I have had some sleepless nights contemplating this reply believe me.

The last time I took valium was at the camping trip in May when a kind person gave me a 10mg tablet that was from Nepal. It actually had valium stamped on it which I found quite amusing. One half a tablet put me right off to sleep the both nights. My regular routine relates to when my medical condition flares. I am not comfortable with discussing my medical condition and I hope people can respect that. Fortunately I have had a lucky few months and haven't had any major flares.

I wanted to use the zonk in place of valium, which I had prescribed last year but can no longer get, in the case of future flares. I tested out the zonk to see what kind of sedating properties it had. In the past I had only ever consumed 3 pills at a time for sleep. I have been using them since way back when they were in the cool black capsules all the way through even enduring one of the blue capsule batchs purchased in Surfer's Paradise that was very weak.

Chiral your response to me was interprepeted as a personal attack. "Dickhead" is a trigger word for me - it is what my father used to call me. I do think of you as a good friend and that is what made me react so strongly. Hopefully we can put that behind us, your friendship means a lot to me.

Torsten, I have so much respect for you and have learned so much from you and this site over the years that I have been involved. I was really annoyed that I had upset you and felt really disapointed in myself for doing so. I was honestly only trying to understand what had happened to me in my situation as I was genuinely alarmed. I did not intentionally mean to bad mouth your product if that is your perspective. I still don't feel I have bad mouthed your product and will continue to buy them for sleep, if you'll still sell them to me anyway. I apologise for any stress I have caused you.

I am going to stay in the background on the site for the next few months and lie low until hopefully this situation is over with - basically lurk moar. If you don't see me posting don't stress, I'll still be buying up most of what each seller has to offer in the trade forum as usual. I am working on being able to give a lot back to the community one day.

In short I love SAB and don't want to end up a refugee at the other forum. Not that there is anything wrong with the other forum, I just like to be involved in both.

Maybe I'll be able to get some sleep now with that off my chest

Peace

[Chiral]

LOL...welcome back Richard Head...

Hey good for you man, chin up and all that, I know how it feels with the whole father thing, man believe me no one had a more fucked old man than me, dickhead would have been a nice word from his mouth, anyways good to see you back, take your hat off and stay a while.

Hopefully we can put that behind us, your friendship means a lot to me.

Consider it done old buddy.

[Bread Filter]

LOL...welcome back Richard Head...

Hey good for you man, chin up and all that, I know how it feels with the whole father thing, man believe me no one had a more fucked old man than me, dickhead would have been a nice word from his mouth, anyways good to see you back, take your hat off and stay a while.

Consider it done old buddy.

 

Thanks mate, that means a lot to me