Delosperma Bosseranum

[Stonehenge]

Is anyone growing this one or have you tried it? I've got a few plants going. It seems to grow fairly fast, not really fast but faster than scelletium which is very slow. It's supposed to have similar effects to scelletium tortuosum and that's all I know. Does anyone know how you prepare it? Do you ferment it or just dry it out? Does it have oxalic acid like scelly? If not, that would be a great thing right there. How does the potency compare? Do you smoke it or what? It seems very interesting because it's not quite so fussy as s.t. is. I can't even sprout any s.t. except in the winter when it's cold. The d.b. seems easy to sprout and grows faster.

Stoney

[mr b.caapi]

mines growing fairly slow? how and where are you growing yours?

[Stonehenge]

I have mine in little pots in a window sill. They aren't growing fast compared to some plants but faster than my scellys I think. I started some in feb and have a few 5 to 8cm tall with branches coming out. Has anyone tried using this plant?

Stoney

[Jack]

http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...t=001112#000000

http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin...t=000757#000000

[Torsten]

assume oxalic acid in all members of the aizoaceae.

[Ed Dunkel]

Assuming our fermentation processes aren't always going to be efficient!!!

What can we expect from some oxalic acid poisoning?

Low dose --> high dose

short term --> long term

symptoms, taste...

Assuming the level in some vegetables are OK to handle, what level would we expect to be "safe"?

What should we avoid doing to not aggravate the harmful side of oxalic acid?

[Rev]

I d like to point out that while the genus sceletium are mostly winter growers (cool moist), Genus Delosperma are mostly Summer growers (warm moist). Both will compromise and put out decent growth in autumn here but at other times they need supplemental watering.

So far sceletium fare poorly with summer humidity but take some pretty low night temps. If sceletium doesnt get water in winter it looks awful, wilting like spinach.

Delosperma cooperi on the other hand is the exact opposite! I had to water it every day in summer or it would wilt and die. Now my delospermas are doing nothing

Thus you have to treat them differently

Also D bosseranum forms a carrot like root which is one part that can be used. If its not doing anything on top then it may just be putting energy down below

[Jack]

According to The tenth edition Handbook of Poisoning by Robert H. Dreisbach, MD, PhD

The fatal dose by ingestion of oxalic acid is estimated to be 5-15 g

Symptons of acute poisoning begin with local irritation and corrosion of the mouth, esophagus, and stomach, with pain and vommiting. These symptons are followed shortly by muscular tremors, convulsions, weak pulse, and collapse. Death may occur within minutes. After aparent recovery or if oxalate is ingested, acute renal failure may occur from blocking of renal tubules by calcium oxalate.

Prevention

Avoid prolonged skin contact. Avoid fumes from boiling oxalic acid.

Treatment

A. Acute Poisoning-

1. Emergency measures -Precipitate oxalate by giving calcium in any form orally, such as milk. lime water, chalk, calcium gluconate, calcium chloride, or calcium lactate. Do not use gastric lavage or emesis if tissue corrosion has occured. Dissolve calcium lactate, 10g (2tsp), in lavage or emesis fluids.

2)Antidote - Give Calcium gluconate, 10%, 10ml slowly IV, and repeat if symptons persist.

3. General measures- if renal function remains normal, give fluids to 4 litres daily to prevent precipitation of calcium oxalate in the renal tubules.

Prognosis

If calcium antidotes can be given promptly, recovery is likely.

[ 29. June 2004, 23:30: Message edited by: Jack ]

[Torsten]

I am under the impression that oxalic acid is a local neurotoxin. That means that any contact with it will affect primarily the contact area. If the contact area is the lungs then that might not be a good thing (besides acidic smoke being nasty enough).

Some of the iceplants are used as food (eg carpobrotus = sourfig; tetragonia = NZ spinach) where their acid content is part of their appeal. I think the warnings re oxalic acid in Aizoaceae really apply mostly to smoking and snorting.

[Stonehenge]

Those posts by t st were very interesting. Now I'm glad I have some growing and will probably start some more. The thing he said that made me think this is a major plant is the fact that he liked it and used it regularly. There are so many plants that get ballyhood and people try them, say they got an effect and they don't use them anymore. It sounds like this might be better than kanna. Kanna is ok, I like it but do not use it regularly like I do another herb. Just because someone else likes it doesn't mean I will but it's a good starting point. I also like the fact that the leaves give a different high than the root and the fact it grows in warm weather. A cold weather plant is hard to raise in a warm climate like I'm in. This could turn out to be a major plant when it gets better known.

Is t st out there? How do you treat it to get rid of the oxalic? Do the roots have oxalic too? I've noticed that some of my plants are taking off and some are growing much more slowly. Does anyone know some tricks to growing them? Do they like direct sun or shade? I have them in indirect sun now.

Stoney

[Fractalhead]

 

quote:

---

I think the warnings re oxalic acid in Aizoaceae really apply mostly to smoking and snorting.

 

---

Torsten, is that because you don't think regular oral dosing at the typical oral doses for aizoaceous materials would lead to an ingestion rate of oxalate in excess of the body's oxalate excretion rate?

[Torsten]

excretion rate has little to do with it. Lots of oxalates are caught up as calcium complex and cannot be absorbed. hence these are part of the total excretion, but not relevant to any toxic effect.

But I get the general direction of your question and yes, the amount of material needed (by the oral route) to cause problems is not within the range usually ingested (I know from experience ).

[Torsten]

I was one of those kids that used to eat lots of weeds. my favourite was wild sorrel, which contains lots of oxalic acid. It realy is almost impossible to ingest enough oxalic acid to do damage as long as you chew or sip the material. The taste is powerful and the effects start on your mouth muscles first. When it gets difficult to close your lips properly then it is a good time to stop chewing

[Rev]

Ok but what about Rhubarb leaves?

is the danger overstated?

[Torsten]

Originally posted by reville:

Ok but what about Rhubarb leaves?

is the danger overstated?

Probably..... maybe... maybe not.

Rhubarb-stick sourness is to a large degree from oxalic acid, so you're already getting a fair whack of it there (and live to tell the tale). The leaves are totally unpalatable though and I think the rule of not eating rhubarb leaves is kinda stating the obvious

I don't really know if anyone has ever been poisoned by rhubarb, but if they have, then they must have been really stupid or really hungry.

[Rev]

This should help...

http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/rhubarb-poison.html

good stuff

So why dont we just cut our sceletium etc with some CaOH? Might freebase it a bit to if smoked

[ 01. July 2004, 02:52: Message edited by: reville ]

[Torsten]

Originally posted by reville:

So why dont we just cut our sceletium etc with some CaOH?

Has been discussed before

Good page on rhubarb! The point all along is that small amounts will cause symptoms, but to cause severe problems or death by oxalic acid in aizoaceae is almost impossible. The problem is though that when you are tripping you don't really need any toxic effects to spoil your good time...

[Rev]

ah! - UTFSE

[Stonehenge]

I kind of figured the oxalic wouldn't be poisonous when eaten. Spinach has oxalic and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it.

What about the effects of D.B.? t st was the only one I think I heard of who was using it. I thought scelletium was so so. It's not bad but not so good that you keep reaching for it. If I had no pot to smoke I'd probably use it as a sub. Can anyone compare the root of D.B. to the leaves? Do the dried leaves burn your nose like scelly does? How does it smoke? Any reports on using tea?

Stoney

[t st tantra]

first i'll share an interesting experiment.

db whole plant was prepared for fermentation like sceletium.'fermentation' or similar happened within a day or two,with NO smell at all!!!the whole plant seemed to have the effects usually associated with just the root!a smoother smoke than just dried root,it burnt much better.

previously i just dried the root and smoked it or cut the fresh root wiped it on ciggie papers dried and smoked.this smear is enough to be active.

it may be a personal thing but some people definately prefer it to sceletium,which is too mild for me to use very often.though i've been told cactus/sceletium is worthwhile.

i've found conciderable synergy between db root and some other mild stimulants that have impressed me so much i'm keeping it secret until i work it out.

t s t .

[Ed Dunkel]

It thus seems like fermentation is only a small precautionary step for consuming Sceletium. Possibly to make it more palatable and the trip more enjoyable.

I have eaten fresh sceletium, straight of off the plant (4-8 leaves) without any noticable burning sensation in the mouth (these were the fleshy winter leaves)

The summer leaves seem a bit harsher but no noticable burning there either.

(for those concerned by my reckless eatin habits, I consume sceletium on an infrequent and low dose pattern)

[Zen Peddler]

Is it the oxalic acid that causes Sorrel to cause hypotension?