Torsten Posted May 11, 2004 Originally posted by gomaos: hmmmmm, methcathinone... apparently it can be made from khat... No, it can't. methcathinone has a methyl group on the amine, while cathinone and cathine (the the alpha-methyl PEA's in khat) don't. Methcathinone is made from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine. An ethanolic plant extract, dried out and then mixed with a bit of powdered washing soda, would probably be the way to go re smoking I might give that a go... sounds interesting... [/b] Keep the temp near freezing during extraction and do it quickly. From the tree to the pipe should not take more than about 2 hours at below 5 deg C. Theo - we have had people leaving these forums due to racism recently. Please make sure that your statements refer to certain people and that you have a valid reson for making such a statement, or that it is scientific fact and that you can produce some proof of this. I myself am very anti-american-politics, but that doesn't mean I have an issue with the people. Vent your anger or frustration at those who deserve it. Stoney is unlikely to be one of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted May 11, 2004 Daring to be contrary and living in the belly of the beast, I have always found Americans to be more hard-headed than placebo-sensitive. The amount of substances consumed by some of these people with no illumination whatsoever never ceases to amaze me. On almost any American based internut (sic) ethnobotanical forum you will find constant complaining by someone or other that certain herbs or substances don't work when for everyone else, they do. No dose seems large enough to break through, either, until they take something nearly fatal. And do they learn something from this? No. (I must have ingested too much of that Panax Ginseng resin I am making. This sounds totally unlike me. The resin can do that. Better go home and 'wind down'.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mescalito Posted May 12, 2004 I want YOUR job friendly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 12, 2004 gomaos, no, that would not be nice. Methcathinone is nastier than speed in my opinion. The agarofuran esters are probably the nice part of the khat. See separate "apology" thread for the other issues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gomaos Posted May 12, 2004 Keep the temp near freezing during extraction and do it quickly. From the tree to the pipe should not take more than about 2 hours at below 5 deg C. Does this mean even the extract that has been produced does not keep for any lenght of time? Then it wouldn't be worth the trouble... gomaos, no, that would not be nice. Methcathinone is nastier than speed in my opinion Well I admit my liking of these things is probably unhealthy but it's there... (20 years ago i regarded them as a definite no-no, because Dr. Leary had said so... but now I crave unknown pleasures) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friendly Posted May 12, 2004 Ah, but it's sooo much more than just a job... :cool: It's a labor of love. A love of plants. A love of lifeforce. A love of the magick of plants. A love that is reciprocal. How could I not be happy in my work? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted May 13, 2004 Originally posted by theobromos: Methcathinone is nastier than speed in my opinion. yep, it is nastier in as much that it is MUCH more addictive. Methcathinone is not as nice as methamphetamine. Even though I went through a 6 months period where I exclusively aimed for the methcathinone high in favour of the methamphetamine high. Methcathinone has a much stonger dopamine and serotonin component than methamphetamine (ie it is much more MDMA like than speed). But interestingly, all the people I knew who got hooked on methcathinone ended up giving it up without any help after 6-12 months, while those on methamphetamine kept their habit for years. The agarofuran esters are probably the nice part of the khat. I think they are responsible for the inebriating aspect of khat. We have certain varieties that have a much stonger sweet smell which I presume are due to the esters. These are much more inebriating rather than just stimulating. The 'niceness' lies in the combination I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theobromos Posted May 14, 2004 Great, I am getting a garden soon. Lets start a breeding programme for cathinone-free khat. Could it be legal in all countries? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Barleycorn Posted May 14, 2004 Last time I looked at the Oz legislation a few years ago, cathinone was mentioned but _not_ cat. However, there are of course always the analogue laws to contend with ... I strongly suspect that a lot of people who think they have tried cat actually have not. The lab studies seem to show that rats can't distinguish between cat and speed, whereas most of the tweakers at the Hive seem to be doing at least 300 mg, and up to 1 g. Over-oxidation of the cold pills (to benzaldehyde) is probably partly to blame, but there is also the issue of how well the target copes with standard acid-base extractions. Torst's idea of doing the plant extraction cold is a good one, but of course this means the alcohol will probably have to be stripped off under vacuum. Could still be worth doing at room temp anyway. A couple of drops of HCl could help to stabilise the cathinone, but dont go under pH 4. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rev Posted May 15, 2004 Cathine - schedule 2 Cathionine - Schedule 9 Methcathinone - ? can rememeber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted May 15, 2004 Originally posted by John_Barleycorn: Last time I looked at the Oz legislation a few years ago, cathinone was mentioned but _not_ cat. However, there are of course always the analogue laws to contend with ... It's legal to grow but illegal to prepare (ie dry, eat, etc) I strongly suspect that a lot of people who think they have tried cat actually have not. Mine was cat. I was living with a cat cook in amsterdam at the time (I shudder just thinking of the stench) Over-oxidation of the cold pills (to benzaldehyde) is probably partly to blame Benzaldehyde would not be in the final product as benzaldehyde won't form a salt. The main problem re dosage appears to be underoxidation. In Holland or the US that isn't so bad cos they use ephedrine and that is kinda nice in its own right. In Oz the starting compound is pseudoephedrine and that kinda sucks by itself. Torst's idea of doing the plant extraction cold is a good one, but of course this means the alcohol will probably have to be stripped off under vacuum. If you use acetone then the evaporation causes the liquid to cool itself. Neat eh? Could still be worth doing at room temp anyway. Nope. Stinky cathine is all you get. A couple of drops of HCl could help to stabilise the cathinone, but dont go under pH 4. Only once you go under pH4 will you protect the molecule in my opinion. But really, cat was another life and some memories fade quicker than others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Benzedrine Posted May 15, 2004 I think it would pretty easy for people to tell the difference between Cat and Speed if they had tried both. Surely duration, comedown and general effects would be pretty noticable to anyone with experience with either. Breeding Cathinone-free khat is probably not necassery as most seized khat as been treated so badly and by the police that by the time it was analyzed almost no cathinone remained. People have actually gotten off this way. Isn't qat sometimes boiled into a tea in yemen. I think the heat instability of cathinone has been greatly overestimated, from experience i'd say heat is just a catalyst of entropy for what is unstable just on its own. I can't see why most or some of the cathinone couldn't survive the short term heat required for smoking. I would just think that this method would be very undiserable in comparison to chewing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted May 15, 2004 Originally posted by Benzedrine: Isn't qat sometimes boiled into a tea in yemen. I think the heat instability of cathinone has been greatly overestimated Yes, it is used as a tea, but the desired effect is form the cathine, not the cathinone. A few minutes at pH7 or higher and 70 deg C and you will have no cathinone left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 16, 2004 i've chewed,smoked and drunk qat leaves,the effect was quite similar each time,dreamy stimulation.leaf quality seemed more relevant. the tea was made to use those old thick leaves that fall off the plant. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 19, 2004 a tea was made from about 8 old thick red qat, one old narrow leaf,and 3 little damaged leaves. leaves had sat around for a few days but were not fully dry.they were cut into thin strips ,placed in a cup and topped with boiling water.drinker may have imagined she could inhale fumes from the hot tea.initialy dreamy stimulation resolved to mainly stimulation after an hour or so.a second cup was about half as potent.overall effect was more than drinker had expected.pleasant flavour. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Barleycorn Posted May 20, 2004 Torsten: Benzaldehyde would not be in the final product as benzaldehyde won't form a salt. The main problem re dosage appears to be underoxidation. In Holland or the US that isn't so bad cos they use ephedrine and that is kinda nice in its own right. In Oz the starting compound is pseudoephedrine and that kinda sucks by itself. Correct, the benzaldehyde won't show up in the final product, but by implication whatever low molecular-weight amine fragment is left will. A FOAF (who wouldn't describe himself as a cat cook) once told me that doing this reaction properly requires mild oxidants like MnO2 and preferably a catalyst. Strong oxidants like permanganate are more than capable of rupturing organic molecules. Also, the sniff test for reaction success is highly suspect. Obviously, if someone gets off on ephedrine then they shouldn't bother with the reaction in the first place. quote: If you use acetone then the evaporation causes the liquid to cool itself. Neat eh? A number of solvents have a similar heat of evaporation, but there is the issue of whether or not they dissolve cat salts effectively. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
