ubulawu and psychotria ?

[t st tantra]

something which came from my recent period of pain and one hours sleep a night.....

i had been researching p carthagensis for a number of years and reports were consistent that at doses of about 5 gms it was more active than viridis.but 50gms was still not a breakthrough dose.

i gave it up for a while as too hard.

there were reports of viridis type effects at 100gms.

and research on calycanthus and other psychotria sp found psychotrine and hodgekinsine[sp?] etc.

i believe p carthagensis contains these type of alkaloids and probably no dmt or 5meo.

a range of fractions with similar but slightly different properties are easily extracted.

xtls,syryps,tannin salts,grey/black solids........but best effects are apparently from the whole extract.

can be smoked but orally seems better and dose size is similar.

but to get on topic......during this research it was noticed that p cartha frothed a fair bit.....it seems viridis does too.

an extract in a plastic bottle frothed considerably,much like i would expect of an ubulawu.

i'm told the froth was quite tasty!

so can an aya froth be created?

ubulawu produces a number of doses from a batch of material so i expect you would have to start with a number of doses worth and yield a dose or so at a time?

also if aya were handled roughly and froth discarded,actives may be wasted?

are there saponins in psychotria?

t s t .

[gerbil]

The oral doses active alone or with maoi? FOAF has had large amounts of carth foliage over time but always at innapropriate times and gets composted.

I'm interested in the fruit too, single report from healing forest with the makuna considering it toxic from memory.

It's a confusing species, and I wonder if we all are talking about the same one worldwide, species, hybrids and or chemotypes.

Getting positive, negative and undecided public bioassay and then the paper claiming no tryptamines (from memory?)

An interesting take on it tst, will look down that line when i get a chance and learn more about those molecules.

I'm unaware of other substances in nature that cause frothing besides the saponin groups but my knowledge to make a claim like that is highly limited and uneducated in the broad spectrum lol

[t st tantra]

oral dose can be with or without maoi......with seems prefered.....

t s t .

[holymountain]

oral dose can be with or without maoi......with seems prefered.....

t s t .

i was under the impression that oral doses must be with a maoi otherwise no effects will occur? or are we talking about ubulawu...and while i'm at it what is ubulawu?

i'm interested as well in the potential of carth's have read conflicting reports about them and would like to know what the actual deal is.. waste of time all together or just weaker compared to viridis?

Edited May 21, 2009 by holymountain

[t st tantra]

ubulawu.......african frothing herbs....like silene capene.

post 1,para 3,line 1.......

reports of predosing cartha then smoking changa seem fairly consistent.......onset is delayed, seems like a few minutes to come on ....then a wave appears....it doesnt hit.....you become it.....spread out in visual majesty.....or something like that?.........all in a white cloud of peace?

my thinking is cartha offers nothing viridis like but has its own valuable qualities.

i would guess it was usually an addition to aya/viridis brews.

it is quite possible all cartha are not the same but i see no reason to think that at the present.

the question of the reports based on 100gm doses is unanswered i will seek further information.......

t s t .

[t st tantra]

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=18108

t s t .

[Pisgah]

This is intriguing. I have found aya brews with my own carth leaf (approx 30g per dose) to be active, sort of tryptamine like, but these were with heavy caapi doses. The same leaves were never capable of producing crystalline substances upon extraction. There was a lilting, wave like nature to those aya experiences. Hmm...

This would explain a lot.

[catfish]

what are the distinguishing morphological characteristics that define P. viridis versus P. alba or carth?

hey Pisgah!

[t st tantra]

still searching for the 100g results.....may have to ask wastl[sp?] if hes stll living in a brissy garden.....

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...+carthagenensis

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...+carthagenensis

http://forums.mycotopia.net/ayahuasca-aka-...haginensis.html

t s t .

smoking cartha flowers could be interesting....they have been said to be more potent than leaf.

Edited May 24, 2009 by t st tantra

[gerbil]

sorry confusion in my previous post, it's not the fruits, they claim the whole plant is toxic, think I mixed it up when i was distributing fruits.

what are peoples take on this? It something that never gets spoken about.

[t st tantra]

those links show some large doses being used with no mention of adverse effects.

including,off the top of my head,a gram of cartha ext per kilo body weight in some animal testing with also no adverse effects.

t s t .

[Pisgah]

smoking cartha flowers could be interesting....they have been said to be more potent than leaf.

Will report back tomorrow! Got some flowers coming on...

[t st tantra]

Will report back tomorrow! Got some flowers coming on...

dont expect spiciness.....if possible follow with spiciness......

t s t .

[Pisgah]

I checked my plant, and I'm still a few weeks from open flowers. Will report back when they open.

[gerbil]

anyone know the pharmacology of

2-methyl-tetrahydro-b-carboline from Mind altering and poisonous plants of the world, Michael wink and Ben-erik van wyk. (lists broadly under a few psychotria, carth incl.)

or

1,2,3,4-Tetrahydro-2-methyl-b-carboline

from Dictionary of alkaloids

By Ian W. Southon, Geoffrey A. Cordell, J. Buckingham , specifically stated under P. carth.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=bBX1CH...num=4#PPA569,M1

am looking but not having much luck, still looking though. Seems a common occurrence with a lot of species of interest.

Solubility of molecules in saponins is interesting, seems very broad reading out there but interesting information coming up, can't understand it all but slowly chipping away.

Good to seeya pisgah :D

cheers for that response tantra, I still feel it's something to keep in mind but no doubt no different to other plants, i find it interesting a tribe would state this, wonder if something has been misinterpreted.

Edited May 26, 2009 by gerbil

[t st tantra]

think thats the same substance just 2 ways of saying it.

the reports of viridis,and many other dmt containing plants,are often quite similar.....dmt and traces of mmt and 2mthbc.

human consumption of dmt gives mmt and 2mthbc as products.

i assume similar might be true for plants.....they make dmt and when they use it, mmt and 2mthbc result,i assume this may only show up in older plants?

if cartha contains no dmt i expect it not to contain mmt or 2mthbc?

i would guess that cartha listing is as doubtful as some of the psychotria id's used to get them.

who can tell cartha from alba or sometimes even viridis.....but that said,if it contains tryptamine units,who knows.

the consumer of the 100gm doses has little memory of them and he seems to describe only light effects......forgettable maybe?

t s t .

[t st tantra]

and thanx ......just googled saponins psychotria and see a few different sp named straight off......starting with ipecac[uanha].....work to do.......

t s t .

opioids and nmda antagonists prob have poison ratings in our society too.....ask the salvos ,get one answer ,ask a junky get another.......but really i think much knowledge was lost to these people with the conquest by the spanish etc and its never been reclaimed.....i believe a westerner can aquire more knowledge than traditional shamen often hold!

Edited May 26, 2009 by t st tantra

[Alchemica]

2-Me-THBC is one of the most effective MAO-A-inhibitors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8721213

I'd also expect it to have some 5-HT2 affinity like THH.

2-Me-THBC might be a product formed during analysis of any DMT containing plant if DCM was used as an extraction solvent:

Our recent research has confirmed that DMT reacts with dichloromethane (DCM), either as a result of work-up or storage to give a quaternary N-chloromethyl ammonium salt 2a. Furthermore, this was observed to undergo rearrangement during analysis using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) with products including 3-(2-chloroethyl)indole 3 and 2-methyltetrahydro-β-carboline 4 (2-Me-THBC).

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20419602

if cartha contains no dmt i expect it not to contain mmt or 2mthbc?

Agreed.

dont expect spiciness.....if possible follow with spiciness......

Also agreed! For some, the combination seems to be much like shrooms.

Edited May 26, 2009 by The Alchemist

[t st tantra]

another possibility for the id of cartha alkaloids......

umbellatine.......

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13985567

Interesting analgesic activity has been previously identified in alkaloids isolated from the genus Psychotria (Rubiaceae). We here report the analgesic activity of umbellatine, a new glycoside indole monoterpene alkaloid isolated from Psychotria umbellata. Umbellatine produced a dose-dependent (100-300mg/kg) analgesic effect, partially reversed by naloxone, in the tail-flick and hot-plate models. These results suggest an analgesic effect at least in part associated with the activation of opioid receptors. In the formalin- and capsaicin-induced pain models, umbellatine (100-300mg/kg) elicited significant and dose-related antinociception. Umbellatine acts synergistically when co-administered with the NMDA antagonist MK-801. These results indicate the involvement of NMDA receptors in the umbellatine mechanism of action. Such a combined mode of action can be of relevance for developing analgesics useful in neurophatic pain.

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=2353

http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/524315.html

but judging by the different fractions i guess there are a few different ones involved....

t s t .

Edited May 26, 2009 by t st tantra

[t st tantra]

caapi apparently has saponins too!

t s t .

[Alchemica]

This paper confirms what has already been stated by t st. No alkaloids were detected using Draggendorf's, Bertrand's, Bouchadart's and Mayer's reagents.

Absence of alkaloids in Psychotria carthagenensis Jacq. (Rubiaceae)

Psychotria viridis and P. carthagenensis are often discussed in relation to the hallucinogenic beverage Ayahuasca,

used for religious, medicinal and social purposes. The significance of including Psychotria species in this beverage has

been understood on the basis of substantial amounts of tryptamine alkaloids detected on leaves of both P. ciridis and

P. carthagenensis. Nevertheless, there is a long lasting debate over the identification of which Po,chotria species are

actually traditionally employed. We here report that a P. carthagenensis leaf ethanol extract was found to be devoid

of alkaloids. The extract significantly decreased mice body temperature (350 and 500 mg/kg). Toxicity assessment

revealed that the extract induced sedation and slight ptoses (75% of animals treated with 1000 mg/kg). Lethality was

not observed within 48 h. The data indicate that P. carthagenensis does have bioactive compound(s), possibly active

at the central nervous system, but unlikely to be tryptamine alkaloids as in the case of P. viridis. Therefore, if P. carthagenensis

is indeed used by ayahuasqueros, its chemical and pharmacological significance have yet to be elucidated.

"Interestingly enough, out of the six species of Psychotria native to and collected in the state of Rio Grande do

Sul, only P. carthagenensis was devoid of alkaloids."

Discussion

The genus Psychotria is very closely allied to Palicourea (Rubiaceae) (Schultes and Rauffauf, 1990). Several species of Psychotria and Palicourea are reported as fairly to highly toxic, usually affecting cattle. Toxicological studies of Palicourea marcgravii St. Hill. demonstrated that the nervous system is the major organ affected (Garniak et al., 1989). The Makuna Indians do consider Psychotria carthagenensis as a toxic species (Schultes and Rauffauf, 1990). Our study showed that body temperature decreased after the administration of P. carthagenensis ethanol extract. The ability to decrease body temperature can be interpreted as an indication of central activity. In addition, the decrease in spontaneous activity and ptoses observed during toxicity evaluation are common to central nervous system depressors (Contar et al., 1985). Nevertheless. lethality was not observed even with higher doses.

In the search for analgesic compounds of natural origin, strong opioid-like analgesic activity was detected in alkaloids from Psychotria colorata (Will& ex R. et S.) Muell. Arg., used by Amazonian caboclos (Brazil) as a pain killer (Elisabetsky et al., 1995). Following the combination or ethnopharmacology and chemotaxonomy in the quest for medically useful compounds, a broader screening was launched hoping to identify other Psychotria alkaloids with opioid-like activity. Interestingly enough, out of the six species of Psychotria native to and collected in the state of Rio Grande do Sul, only P. carthagenensis was devoid of alkaloids (Leal, 1994). The obvious difference in climate and other environmental conditions, in this case. does not seem to be the reason for absence of alkaloids. Several samples of P. carthagenensis collected in different regions of Rio Grande do Sul State and a sample brought from the Amazon Valley (State of Acre) were also devoid of alkaloids (Amdlia Henriques, personal communication).The data reported here indicate that P. carthagenensis does have bioactive compounds but these are unlikely to be tryptamine alkaloids as in the case of P. viridis. If P. carthagenensis is indeed selected and used by ayahuasqueros, its chemical and pharmacological significance have yet to be elucidated.

Absence_of_alkaloids_in_Psychotria_carthagenensis.pdf

Umbellatine-like alkaloids look like an interesting lead... question is, would they be detected with Draggendorf's, Bertrand's, Bouchadart's and Mayer's reagents? I would have thought there'd be at least one positive alkaloid result if there were ANY alkaloids.

Seems like umbellatine is another name for psychollatine, a glucosidic monoterpene indole alkaloid. It is also used for berberine which is confusing...

As for the reagents:

The Dragendorff's Reagent is used for the detection of Nitrogenous compounds, alkaloids, antiarrhythmic drugs and surfactants and is also good detector for Phenols.

Most alkaloids are precipitated from neutral or slightly acidic solution by Mayer's reagent (potassiomercuric iodide solution) to give a cream coloured precipitate.

Certain alkaloids with a lactone function, for which Bertrand's reagent is not suitable, may be readily and exactly determined with Reinecke's reagent.

I would have thought this would give a positive test for alkaloids in at least one of the assays but maybe glucosidic alkaloids are different.

This is interesting. Psychollatine has NDMA synergistic, dopaminergic and serotonergic actions. Sounds like a perfect admixture for a viridis brew.

Psychopharmacological profile of the alkaloid psychollatine as a 5HT2A/C serotonin modulator.

Behavioral effects of psychollatine, a new glycoside indole monoterpene alkaloid isolated from Psychotria umbellata, was investigated in models of anxiety, depression, memory, tremor, and sedation related to 5-HT and/or GABA neurotransmission. The GABA antagonist picrotoxin and the 5-HT2 antagonist ritanserin were used to examine the role of GABA and 5-HT2 receptors in psychollatine-induced effects. In the light/dark and hole-board models of anxiety, diazepam (0.75 mg/kg) and psychollatine (7.5 and 15 mg/kg) showed anxiolytic-like effect at doses that do not increase sleeping time nor alter spontaneous locomotor activity. The anxiolytic effect of psychollatine was prevented by prior administration of ritanserin, but not of picrotoxin, indicating that 5-HT2 but not GABA receptors are implicated. In the forced swimming model of depression, psychollatine (3 and 7.5 mg/kg) effects were comparable to the antidepressants imipramine (15 mg/kg) and fluoxetine (20 mg/kg). Psychollatine suppressed oxotremorine-induced tremors in all doses. In the step-down learning paradigm, diazepam (0.85 mg/kg), MK-801 (0.15 mg/kg), and psychollatine 100 mg/kg impaired the acquisition of learning and memory consolidation, without interfering with retrieval. It is concluded that the effects of psychollatine at the central nervous system involve serotonergic 5HT2(A/C) receptors.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np049695y

Role of glutamate and dopamine receptors in the psychopharmacological profile of the indole alkaloid psychollatine.

Psychollatine (1), a new glycoside indole monoterpene alkaloid isolated from Psychotria umbellata, has shown an interesting psychopharmacological profile. This study aimed to investigate the role of NMDA glutamate and dopamine receptors in mediating the properties of 1. Psychollatine (1) was assessed for NMDA-induced seizures, MK-801-induced hyperlocomotion, amphetamine-induced lethality, and apomorphine-induced climbing behavior in mice. Psychollatine (1) (100 mg/kg) and MK-801 (0.3 mg/kg) prevented NMDA-induced seizures (P < 0.01), while 1 (100 mg/kg) attenuated the MK-801-induced hyperlocomotion (P < 0.05). Compound 1 (3 and 10 mg/kg), as well as chlorpromazine (4 mg/kg), prevented amphetamine-induced lethality (P < 0.05). Finally, 1 (10 mg/kg) (P < 0.05), MK-801 (0.2 mg/kg) (P < 0.01), and chlorpromazine (4 mg/kg) (P < 0.01) attenuated apomorphine-induced climbing behavior. The present results strongly support the involvement of NMDA glutamate receptors in the mode of action of psychollatine (1).

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17664575

Other than that, maybe the focus should shift from loooking for alkaloids to non-nitrogenous components.

On another note: Psychotridine is discussed at http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=381878 but this should have returned a positive alkaloid test IMO

Absence_of_alkaloids_in_Psychotria_carthagenensis.pdf

Absence_of_alkaloids_in_Psychotria_carthagenensis.pdf

Edited May 29, 2009 by The Alchemist

[catfish]

great research here guys!

the structure of psychollatine seems to be a 3-substituted beta carboline...that is obviously oversimplifying, but the skeleton is there, albeit with a alot of other stuff hanging off that area where theres usually just a methyl group

[t st tantra]

last night i recalled something i had read on the net about a dieta with psychotria viridis being used for bathing and apparently inducing vivid dreams.......bathing/saponins?.....

t s t .

note 4 self....mansoa alliacea....ajo sacha

Edited June 8, 2009 by t st tantra

[mauve]

last night i recalled something i had read on the net about a dieta with psychotria viridis being used for bathing and apparently inducing vivid dreams.......bathing/saponins?.....

t s t .

you mean this thread ? http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=29076

[t st tantra]

thanx thats a more complete version than i saw before.

t s t .

wonder how dreammagicks campolonga went?he stopped talking about things then....