sethomopod Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Hello, These are pics of a germinating seed that is supposedly a true peregrina.... Now, I posted this to get different views as I am aware of all the 'Peregrina seeds not being Peregrina seeds' talk. I have read the Colubrina does not contain DMT. (From a post by Torsten, although the SAB website differs.??? saying there has been reports of DMT in Colubrina????? the same thread where Torsten speculates there only being the possibility of ONE true Peregrina tree in AUS..) Anyhoo.. assuming that Colubrina does NOT contain DMT, There is a high chance this is a Peregrina. The guy who I got it off made a snuff and was blown away by a very DMT based trip (this guy has had DMT in various forms, Acacia extract being his favorite, and has the track record behind him to know the difference between a bufo experience and a DMT experience.... He assures me that these seeds are choc fulla DMT!) So with this in mind, Do I have reason to be excited? Is this a rarity or are there other confirmed Peregrina trees around? Is the confirmation of DMT present in the seeds say anything about it being Peregrina or Colubrina??? Any help is appreciated! (germination notes; The seed was placed in rockwool. I pushed it down so that it was level with the surface of the cube. After 2 days, the paper thin seed casing sorta rotted away, the seed swelled. hence pushing the seed upward. I thought that an exposed seed like that would have no chance. Until about day 7 when it started to get a greenish tinge then opened up to reveal a seedling pushing its way up! This was done in a Heat'n'grow receiving light and heat from a 60W incandescent bulb,, misted with plain water twice a day ) Sorry about some out of focus pics.. Now knowing that is is most probably a peregrina, I will post pics every now and then to show progress to those who are interested. Edited May 6, 2009 by sethomopod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alchemica Posted April 28, 2009 Is the confirmation of DMT present in the seeds say anything about it being Peregrina or Colubrina??? Until the professionals answer, here are the relevant pages from Some Simple Tryptamines, 2nd ed. (Keeper of the Trout and Friends, pp. 29-30, 2007). Reported occurrences of DMT: I hope sharing this is not a copyright infringement - I am only posting this online after seeing the comment "Trout's Notes strongly encourages the dissemination of any and all factual information contained within these pages so long as proper acknowledgement of the authorships and original sources of data origin are maintained." Mods, please let me know if there are any issues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted April 28, 2009 The presence of useful amounts of DMT certainly puts this in the 'likely peregrina' basket. Colubrina may have dmt, but usually not useful amounts. I'd prefer to rely on TLC rather than experiential, but sometimes that's all we have to go on. I did mention in one of me peregrina rants that there is a source of supposed peregrina in the oz tropics somewhere. I have no reason to doubt this ID other than sheer probability [ie after hearing debunking 100 supposed peregrina trees it is difficult to believe that there is actually one]. That said, I'd be very happy if that source is indeed peregrina. Swap me some seed and I'll find out for sure ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) The presence of useful amounts of DMT certainly puts this in the 'likely peregrina' basket. Colubrina may have dmt, but usually not useful amounts. I'd prefer to rely on TLC rather than experiential, but sometimes that's all we have to go on.I did mention in one of me peregrina rants that there is a source of supposed peregrina in the oz tropics somewhere. I have no reason to doubt this ID other than sheer probability [ie after hearing debunking 100 supposed peregrina trees it is difficult to believe that there is actually one]. That said, I'd be very happy if that source is indeed peregrina. Swap me some seed and I'll find out for sure ;) About the source of the seed: I can tell you that it isn't from the source you're talking about Torsten. The guy I got it from wouldn't tell me but I assume it was obtained illegally. I have known this guy to order items from all over the world! He's nuts! Torsten, re:"Swap me some seed and I'll find out for sure", What do you mean by this? Are you able to get seeds scientifically I.D'ed? Do you know where TLC is performed? (I have heard it referred to as "Rapid and Inexpensive"... Sounds good!)Whatever the case may be... What would you like to swap for them? Edited April 29, 2009 by sethomopod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Heres a couple more pics... I am impressed by how fast it is growing. (35mm in a few days!) I have a small Colubrina that I am now taking down notes about its growth patterns. Hopefully to compare it to this seedling to find any differences,(are there any differences even?) However If anyone can spot any at earlier stages, please let me know... I will continue to post pics..... Thanks guys! p.s Can anyone tell me if I should be worried about the small brown patch forming on the seed itself? just near the surface of the rockwool... Maybe because its exposed? I was amazed by how far it pushed itself up! Edited April 29, 2009 by sethomopod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted April 30, 2009 The brown patch shouldn't be a problem. the whole cotyledon will go manky pretty soon. The fact that the cotyledons stay on ground level and the shoot goes so high up is distinctive of Anadenanthera. Many of the peregrina forms offered overseas do not do this and hence aren't colubrina. As for the ultimate proof, this comes by way of killing them. At least that is how I found out previous batches of peregrina Basically, if they germinate like yours then it can only be colubrina or peregrina. Colubrina is frost hardy but goes dormant. Peregrina does not have thickened roots so when it goes 'dormant' in response to cold it simply dies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted April 30, 2009 http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...=15754&st=0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted April 30, 2009 that's right. That thread solved the ID problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) Fantastic thread Planthelper! It'll be a hand full of years before this one starts flowering. It's great to see such a detailed thread.. I'll need to research Botanical jargon a bit more... I actually posted this thread not to confirm Id, but rather to get a estimate of how rare this tree is in Australia.. I'm very interested in rare species.. any thought that there may only be a handful in Oz (if that) gets me grinning... Heres a coupla more pics of progress... Edited May 2, 2009 by sethomopod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted May 3, 2009 colubrina responds extreemly well to nurturing (re pot often, fert often, ample of water...) and than plant her out 6 months or so after germination. like this some colubrinas flowered quite soon, i can't remeber now but, maybe after 2 years. you can think of repoting yours already now, because once the roots start to tangle or get air prunned, you already will make her grow slower than possible. but use only slightly bigger pots, and repot more often, because this plant is a nitrogen fixer (too much new soil might harm the benefical symbiotic critters) and aswell likes free draining soil which dries out slightly once in a while between waterings. but i don't mean to stress the plant, anyway this is a very rewarding plant to grow, good luck! nice pic's! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted May 3, 2009 colubrina responds extreemly well to nurturing (re pot often, fert often, ample of water...) and than plant her out 6 months or so after germination. like this some colubrinas flowered quite soon, i can't remeber now but, maybe after 2 years.you can think of repotting yours already now, because once the roots start to tangle or get air prunned, you already will make her grow slower than possible. but use only slightly bigger pots, and repot more often, because this plant is a nitrogen fixer (too much new soil might harm the benefical symbiotic critters) and as well likes free draining soil which dries out slightly once in a while between waterings. but i don't mean to stress the plant, anyway this is a very rewarding plant to grow, good luck! nice pic's! Thanks Planthelper, Once again you've given me clear and concise tips.. Much appreciated!! It seems to be going well so far. I'll take your advice and pot up today. I'm also germinating several more, so let's hope they go as well as this one! Here's a couple more pics of progress.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 24, 2009 (edited) i have some comments on this subject,the first relates to trouts notes as posted by the alchemist in post 2............ re dmt....... apart from shultes reporting 0.16% from immature peregrina seeds the next highest report is 0.06% from cebil seed.....and then 0.038 and 0.028 from unnamed anadenanthera sp. many reports give compounds but no %ages. compare this with 2% bufo reported from colubrina......if we assume similar levels of activity for bufo and dmt,per mg,the reports of dmt activity dont add up. it gets worse.......but you'll have to wait for me to get it together......'anadenanthera' by torres and repke pages 119 and 120 refers..... t s t . Edited May 24, 2009 by t st tantra Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 28, 2009 from 'anadenanthera'........ re the shultes report before this only one anadenanthera sample had ever failed to yeild bufo,perigrina or colubrina. however shultes analyses 6 collections of perigrina and finds no bufo in any! 3 years later seeds were collected from the same grove of trees and bufo was found to be the main alkaloid. i agree with the authors that these results seem unreliable. so there seems to me no evidence for claims of usable dmt in any anadenanthera speices! it seems perigrina v falcata has mainly 5meo,but all the others including perigrina v perigrina have shown bufo as the main alkaloid. but anadenanthera is a highly variable plant and id's are uncertain.......... t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted May 28, 2009 I think the freaky analysis results are due to extraction differences. You have to remember that to analyse the seeds they don't just stick a whole seed into a GC, but rather an extract is made which is more or less purified before injection into the machine. Even a detailed lab report won't help much as something as minor as concentration of acids or bases, or water content of solvent etc can dramatically influence the selectivity of a solvent for certain substances. The fact that bufotenine is often missed in analyses is probably the same reason why eugenol was often missed in similar analyses - the hydroxy group. That said, I am confident that certain types of peregrina are high in dmt. I've had bufotenine, 5MeOdmt, and dmt all separately and it is pretty easy to tell bufotenine from the other two as it is by far the least pleasant of them [for me at least]. I have also consumed peregrina seeds that quite obviously did not have bufotenine as a major active constituent. On the other hand colubrina seeds are quite distinctly bufotenine. A friend of mine has done TLC on colubrina leaves and found various tryptamines in proportions that changed dramatically throughout the year. I'd suggest that dmt might only be formed at a particular time in peregrina seeds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chiral Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) I think the freaky analysis results are due to extraction differences. You have to remember that to analyse the seeds they don't just stick a whole seed into a GC, but rather an extract is made which is more or less purified before injection into the machine. Even a detailed lab report won't help much as something as minor as concentration of acids or bases, or water content of solvent etc can dramatically influence the selectivity of a solvent for certain substances. The fact that bufotenine is often missed in analyses is probably the same reason why eugenol was often missed in similar analyses - the hydroxy group.That said, I am confident that certain types of peregrina are high in dmt. I've had bufotenine, 5MeOdmt, and dmt all separately and it is pretty easy to tell bufotenine from the other two as it is by far the least pleasant of them [for me at least]. I have also consumed peregrina seeds that quite obviously did not have bufotenine as a major active constituent. On the other hand colubrina seeds are quite distinctly bufotenine. A friend of mine has done TLC on colubrina leaves and found various tryptamines in proportions that changed dramatically throughout the year. I'd suggest that dmt might only be formed at a particular time in peregrina seeds. A while back another SAB member bought a whole bunch of Columbrina seed from your store Torsten when it was available....he passed on about 25 seeds to me and I prepared a wonderful snuff from them. I found them to be extremely active but to this day I don't know what the alk was, as the visuals where round red and wobbly lines...I lost my balance when walking as if the concrete below me had turned to ocean...had some nausea for a short while and some pretty intense nasal pain from snorting such a large amount....I finally found my way from my outdoor shed to my music studio then lay down and had these strange cloudy closed eyed visuals that where like round red lines coming at me and then white clouds like a fog bank.... and then bang all of a sudden I seemed to be out of the cloudiness and my out of body communicating with some other people...humans not elves or aliens or anything....from memory a girl with black dreadlocks and we where happily chatting away...and then the cloud bank would close back in and blood red wobbly round visuals came and went....this lasted 45 mins all up and there was some tightness in my face and skin and a pushing down on my shoulders. Was this mainly 5Meo & Bufo or simply Bufo....was similar to DMT but completely different if you know what I mean....no symmetry at all and no spectacular colours. After that trip i said I wouldn'y really like to do that again but now I think back and it was some months ago I'd probably like to try it again to compare notes...but my point is they where extremely active with something....just what...? H. Edited May 28, 2009 by Hunab Ku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 31, 2009 its really just a mix of study,exp,guess and assumption but i would say most likely cebil and prob mainly bufo with reasonable amts of 5meo and very small amts of dmt and n oxides of these plus a few more simple tryptamines..... t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted May 31, 2009 http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/var003.htm Chemistry Of Cebil And Yopo Cebil and yopo are quickly metabolized so the effects don't last long. When inhaled in the form of a snuff, peak effects usually last 20-60 minutes and lesser after-effects can last another 2-3 hours, or slightly longer. It is accepted that the primary psychoactive chemical found in cebil (Anadenanthera colubrina seed) is bufotenine. DMT and 5-MeO-DMT may be present in trace amounts, but they probably have limited, if any, influence on the level of intoxication. When it comes to yopo (Anadenanthera peregrina seed), there is some confusion over the amount of bufotenine, DMT, and 5-MeO-DMT present. Most of the more reliable information about yopo indicates that it is nearly identical to cebil in chemistry. However, there are some experienced yopo consumers that have encountered yopo that has DMT in significantly larger quantities than usual. In some cases, DMT (and possibly 5-MeO-DMT) may have been the main psychoactive constituents of product sold as Anadenanthera peregrina seed. There are enough people who know what they are talking about to leave the possibility open that DMT and possibly 5-MeO-DMT may occur in higher concentrations than previously measured. This may be due to a subspecies or variety of Anadenanthera peregrina that has a different chemistry than other members of the species. This is not such a large leap of faith when one considers the cannabis genus (that marijuana plants belong to) is made up of three species that have interbred to produce dozens of different strains (a cross, hybrid, subspecies, or variety) with varying cannabinoid concentrations. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alchemica Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) A few passages from Anadenanthera - Visionary Plant of Ancient South America (courtesy of t st): [/color]http://www.amazon.com/Anadenanthera.../dp/0789026422 [/color] Edited June 7, 2009 by The Alchemist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) OK, So I guess the confirmed presence of DMT is good news, (bioassays supporting the californian body load) So I wonder, even though this is proved, All the excerpts posted here basically agree to not agreee that the presence of DMT is enough to say its true peregrina.. With reports finding DMT in columbrina too.... Hey alchemist, with what you know, being that seeds is older than 9 months, What would you hypothesize this seeds profile to look like freshly picked? What do you think about this? Peregrina or no? Edited June 5, 2009 by sethomopod Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alchemica Posted June 6, 2009 I guess the concentration of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT could be higher in the fresh seeds (most of the literature seems to suggest that bufotenine is all that remains after long-term storage) but wouldn't think that 9 months would change the alkaloid profile too much. As for an ID... I'm not sure. Probably peregrina but I really don't understand enough about the plants to be able to give an definite answer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted June 7, 2009 the pods seem to reach full size fairly quickly then hang around for 4 to 6 months before splitting......would like to see results for tests at different times during this period. there seemed to be a change in leaf effect maybe early spring when leaf was falling. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted June 7, 2009 i have some stray thoughts about anadenanthera........ they have been cultivated and traded for over a thousand years so i would expect there are groves of mixed plants? are seeds collected from a number of sources and dumped in the one batch?to what extent is any batch of seed from a single source? i will check torres and repke to get a better understanding of overlapping growing areas but recall they said much is unknown.......... t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
planthelper Posted August 5, 2009 any chance of an update sethomopod? they are fast growers, yours could be 50cm tall or more by now, anyway i find this tread was worth being bumped, as it got such a big spectrum of knowledge brought together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sethomopod Posted September 29, 2009 any chance of an update sethomopod?they are fast growers, yours could be 50cm tall or more by now, anyway i find this tread was worth being bumped, as it got such a big spectrum of knowledge brought together. Hey, Sorry for the delay PH! I'm offline for a while sometimes.... They have not grown very much at all in the last few months. I'm assuming winter stunted them somewhat.They shed a few leaves, but no real signs of stress.Just lack of growth.. My young columbrina did the same.. just stopped growing.. But just last week, the columbrina shot new growth, so I'm hoping the seedlings aren't too far away from doing the same. I will post some more pics soon... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
