Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Hi Martin, the taxonomy of Lophophora is quite messy and in dire need of a revision/clarification. Personally I would stick to a more conservative classification including only Lophophora diffusa, L. fricii, L. koehresii, and L. williamsii as good species - possibly also including the newly described Lophophora alberto-vojtechii but I would like to see some more data on that species. Also, preliminary results by Martin Terry suggest that the northern form of L. williamsii (usually known as Lophophora williamsii var. echinata) is distinct from the typical southern form, Lophophora williamsii var. williamsii. The rest of the names on your list I consider cultivar names (of course one can always discuss whether Lophophora diffusa var. koehresii or Lophophora koehresii is the correct moniker).That being said, I'm not consistent myself - I happily use e.g. a name like Lophophora williamsii var. decipiens. It's a mess ;-) From this Source What do you guys think? What's this new species Lophophora alberto-vojtechii? How about the idea that- "the northern form of L. williamsii (usually known as Lophophora williamsii var. echinata) is distinct from the typical southern form, Lophophora williamsii var. williamsii" What'd you guys think? Edited February 8, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Very interesting! I love your blog! After much research I have come to believe that there are a number of different types of Lophophora which are called decipiens. I believe the one your talking in Croizat's description is closely related to if not synonymous with Lophophora brackii. Check it out... L. brackii are desribed as looking just like Croizat's description states! Another Link Edited February 7, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trucha Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) The new species is a miniature. For a look at Helia Bravo's williamsii var. williamsii http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/cslm01.html (several views and other species but not including the new miniature) compare to her williamsii var. echinata http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/tpt00.html This is a much hardier and cold tolerant plant. Edited February 7, 2009 by trucha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 7, 2009 teo the new species is in the cactus and co magazine, check out their site and email them about it. $!5 to have it bought and shipped. they are nice people as well (i ended up subscribing after i got that mag, its a nice quality pub). i am in the 4 species boat as well. diffusa, koehresii, fricii and williamsii. R. rowly published a paper claiming Lophophora to be 1 specie and place them into cultivars.....but i really can't accept that. species seems rather confusing as to what is what, but i think at a minimum if they cannot sexually reproduce with each other they are distinct species...just seems right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Wow this is all very interesting! Sounds like I should get that book. Thanks for posting Mr.Trout, Kadakuda. My Lophophora echinata came from "the Big-Bend park in AZ". Does anybody have a picture of the new species? What are the thoughts on were it fits into the genus? Lophophora- Lophophora alberto-vojtechii Lophophora brackii Lophophora decepiens Lophophora diffusa Lophophora echinata Lophophora fricii Lophophora koehresii Lophophora jourdaniana Lophophora williamsii Which one do I need??? Edited February 8, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 7, 2009 brackii is not a species.... according to the kaktusy article (you really should get one bro....this site sells them) there are 2 sections (sectio???? i forget what they called it). williamsii and diffusinae (fuck i cant remember how to spell it. its something like that though....) williamsii section = L. williasmii Diffus___ section = L. diffusa, L.fricii, L. koeresii and the new guy. dish out the cash man, they are good reads if your interested in the Lophophora genus!!! i got free pdf's at first, and decided i liked them so much i should pay for it and have a hard copy....glad i did! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Which book should I get from them Kada? Give me a book title, please? Look what was just posted on the Lophophora blog! Picture of the New Lophophora species! Edited February 7, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lophophora Posted February 7, 2009 For what it's worth, I just did a blog post on the Lophophora alberto-vojtechii description including a few pictures from the article: Lophophora alberto-vojtechii, a new miniature species in the genus Lophophora. But as kadakuda says you have to get hold of a copy of the Cactus & Co magazine ;-) teo the new species is in the cactus and co magazine, check out their site and email them about it. $!5 to have it bought and shipped. they are nice people as well (i ended up subscribing after i got that mag, its a nice quality pub). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lophophora Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Oops, didn't notice that Teotzlcoatl had already mentioned that... Look what was just posted on the Lophophora blog! Edited February 7, 2009 by lophophora Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) You Sir! Mr.Lophophora! Are awesome! I LOVE your blog!!! You should hang out at the Corroboree more often! 1500th post! Edited February 7, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lophophora Posted February 7, 2009 Thanks. It's good to know that my ramblings (or at least some of them ;-) are appreciated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) They're very much apperciated! Keep up the good work! I wish there was more sites out there like yours! Edited February 7, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garbage Posted February 7, 2009 Does it maintain the small size in cultivation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 7, 2009 Does it maintain the small size in cultivation? It should, but I don't think anybody has it in cultivation yet! Or do they? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garbage Posted February 7, 2009 A hunch? Names by intuition? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 8, 2009 it has only been cultivated for a little over a year i think...so its potential, in a greenhouse, is not met yet that's for sure! lophophora: great to have you here many of us enjoy reading your blog! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WoodDragon Posted February 8, 2009 I'm curious - has anyone grafted Lophophora alberto-vojtechii onto peres or trich stock? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 8, 2009 that is likely what everyone who has/had seeds is doing ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 8, 2009 Kada (or anybody esle) PM me if you know where to get seeds/plants of Lophophora alberto-vojtechii. I assume being so closely related to Diffusa that it has no psychoactive vaule? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) What do you guys think about the northern population of Lophophora (williamsii var.) echinata being distinct from the Lophophora williamsii to the South? I think they are distinct, but it's just a guess. Where does Lophophora texana fit into all this? Edited February 8, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted February 9, 2009 texana is from texas. as far as north vs south, i am not that sure. hard to say without growing out many many palnts....better yet having a lab to test them. all my locality plants are still quite small. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lophophora Posted February 9, 2009 What do you guys think about the northern population of Lophophora (williamsii var.) echinata being distinct from the Lophophora williamsii to the South? You might be interested in checking out Del Weniger's "Cacti of the Southwest" or "Cacti of the Trans-Pecos & Adjacent Areas" by Powell et al. Unfortunately I'm traveling and can't give you the exact details, but as far as I remember Weniger distinguishes the two varieties primarily by cold hardiness, and stem size and number. The echinata variety having larger, solitary stems and being much more cold tolerant (as already mentioned above by trucha). The "preliminary results by Martin Terry" I'm referring to at my blog, are from the "Population Genetics of Lophophora williamsii" chapter of his PhD dissertation, A tale of two cacti: studies in Astrophytum asterias and Lophophora williamsii. The results are summarized in the discussion (pp 144-147) that, among other things, says "The fact that the Val Verde County plants show the same uniform genotypes as the Presidio County plants, and that both West Texas populations are genotypically and allelically distinct from the Starr County plants, suggests a West Texas vs. South Texas genetic demarcation". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WoodDragon Posted February 9, 2009 that is likely what everyone who has/had seeds is doing ;) It's the waiting to find out how the scions compare with other grafted lophs that is tormenting me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) So Lophophora (williamsii var.) texana may be very closely related to Lophophora (williamsii var.) echinata? Please understand I'm not refering to th L. diffusa type "Echinata" but the L. williamsii type. ...and... What does the extreme southern Lophophora williamsii look like? Is that Lophophora williamsii var. williamsii? The type species of the genus? "The fact that the Val Verde County plants show the same uniform genotypes as the Presidio County plants, and that both West Texas populations are genotypically and allelically distinct from the Starr County plants, suggests a West Texas vs. South Texas genetic demarcation". Wow... so there may be TONS of different Lophophora species! We've just gotta wait for the DNA work! Somewhere down the line I think Lophophora (especially fricii) edit... give m e a sec Edited February 10, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
