WHERE DOES THE UNIVERSE END?

[Statakak]

Yeah, Ballzacs coment;

Remember that the big bang began right where you are sitting! It also began where I am sitting...and millions of light years away. See, all these points once existed in one place, and space has expanded between them. So any direction you look in, you will be able to see close to the time of the big bang if you look far enough.

Made perfect sense for an instant. But then I thought - That can't be right because;

Where I am sitting and were you are sitting did not even exist (in a space tin continuum context)when the big bang happened.

Only energy existed and the nothing which it traveled through to create technical space.

And what are these 'points' which existed in one place - and if they did exist in one place than they would only be one point.

And in any sized space there is an infinite amount of points but in an expanded space there would have to be more points being generated.

I think it is a bit like this;

When the big bang happened, Electromagnetic Radiation rushed outwards at the speed of light.

As it rushed out it created Distance and Time (Dimensions) by its presence.

Most of this energy is still traveling outwards from the center, and so is now 13 and a half Billion light years from the center.

Matter (basically Hydrogen Atoms) began to form, condensing out of this super hot plasma.

The gravity produced from these primordial partials caused these partials to move laterally coming together creating gas masses which began to orbit a central gravitational point causing retrograde motion (like a tornado dose not travel at the same speed and in the same direction as the wind in the aria blows).

So we will never see the original radiation from the Big Bang as it only exists at the very outer edge of our universe, moving outwards at the speed of light.

The static on TV would more likely be the result of massive supernovas which formed from these original gas clouds which would radiate out in all directions from these supernovas which existed across this small young spherical matter shell.

So if we imagine the universe as a sphere with a Physical Matter shell expanding inside a more rapidly expanding Radiation shell, which represents the edge of our universe.

This seems reasonable and logical to me and dose not conflict with science. This is essential as real science is just about applied logic taking into consideration observed phenomena. Personally I think that if something cant be explained in a logical diagram than it is only speculation.

That's what I think of this universe, put personally, as far as the really big picture goes I'm totally with Mr Stay Puft;

as for expansion...big bang was just a black hole that consumed so much matter it could not contain itself...it blew up in a tremendous explosion pushing everything that was around out at that same speed as the explosion...as for the rest (infinite matter and space i was just talking bout) well thats just too far for us to monitor...and there is a very BIG possibility there are mega black holes out there that limit what we can see beyond the realms of our 'big bang'

And Hanub Ku;

The universe has been around forever...end of story ..now turn off that PC and get to bed.

Yeah this little universe is just a drop of rain in the endless cosmos.

I'm still not totally happy with the clarity of my explanation

I think I might have to draw some pictures to demonstrate what I mean

[ballzac]

And what are these 'points' which existed in one place - and if they did exist in one place than they would only be one point.

True. This is an example of the laws of physics not making sense in a singularity

When the big bang happened, Electromagnetic Radiation rushed outwards at the speed of light.

As it rushed out it created Distance and Time (Dimensions) by its presence.

Actually, space itself can (and AFAIK does) expand faster than the maximum speed information can be transmitted THROUGH it. Therefore it cannot be created by EM radiation. Besides, what gave you that impression?

Most of this energy is still traveling outwards from the center, and so is now 13 and a half Billion light years from the center.

You're still thinking about it as though it is a conventional explosion, with a centre and an edge. Remember, it is more like the surface of an expanding sphere. There is no special place where you could sit and say, "the big bang started here."

[Statakak]

Very interesting concepts Ballzac.

I'll need some time to think about it (I'll be up all night+tomorrow finishing of two assignments due tomorrow so it'll be couple of days)

I think I was under the impression that space its self wasn't actually expanding but rather the energy/matter in it.

And space, (as the nothingness between stuff and apposed to the nothingness that is not between stuff but (theoretically) exists somewhere but in no relation to anything) is given tangible dimensions by the fact that it is between stuff.

And if space was expanding faster than energy/matter can expand then technically energy/matter in the universe is shrinking - or light could never be transmitted between two points because every point in the universe would be spreading faster than the speed of light.

I like your views 'cause they virtually make sense,

But I think will need to really think about this

[ballzac]

And if space was expanding faster than energy/matter can expand then technically energy/matter in the universe is shrinking - or light could never be transmitted between two points because every point in the universe would be spreading faster than the speed of light.

Nearby galaxies are not travelling very fast away from us. Further away, the galaxies appear red because they are travelling away from us quite fast. Very, very far away (I don't know what distance it would be), space, and the galaxies contained therein, are travelling away from us at such a rate that the redshift is complete, meaning that no photons can reach us from that distance, much the same as no light can reach us from within the event horizon.

Edited November 6, 2008 by ballzac

[Yawning Man]

"Say Rick, do you ever wonder what's outside of those walls"?

"That's some Dangerous thinking there Jimmy. You Best stick to your work".

Time. Universe. Space. Dimention. Reality. All human ideas, creations. Why does air form spheres in water? Why did the planets form Spheres in space? Maybe the universe is a liquid? Maybe we are still in the womb of a higher being? Maybe i am god? We're all pure energy, isn't that what everything is? Energy?

I'm still waiting for an alien race to intervene and give us some straight answers.

cheers

[ThunderIdeal]

a couple of things.

before the results came in from the planck probe, there was a lower resolution image of the microwave background. it matched up extremely well with one particular prediction, of a dodecahedron-shaped universe (interestingly some old philosopher had theorised the universe was this shape). i don't know if the higher resolution images have confirmed this at all, but at the time there were spherical models (like a dodecahedron), saddle-shapes and the flat-infinite model which were all given a fair degree of probability.

now, time is running out to find the shape of the universe, because the current source of microwave background will never reach us, it's moving away too fast (this has been mentioned). some cosmologist reckoned, if the shortest way around the universe is not longer than the distance BETWEEN the sources of microwave radiation, then we have enough data to figure out the problem. so if the, let's say circumference of the universe, is LARGER than let's say the diameter of the radiation, then the universe has already hidden the answer from us permanently... that is of course, unless the accelerated expansion slows/stops/(retracts?). which may not be for some billions of years. this concept doesn't make complete sense to me, so i may have muffed it up somehow.