Out-of-date drug laws are hurting people

[Teotzlcoatl]

That link is one of the best things I've read in a long time about drug laws.

[notguilty]

Prohibition is a cure that makes the disease worse. It aims to stop the use of drugs, but instead, it glamorises drug use. It aims to morally improve the drug user, but instead, it corrupts society. Under the rule of morals improvers and “War on Drugs” advocates like Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen and Sir Robert Askin, states like Queensland and New South Wales descended to levels of corruption that made their police forces a public scandal. Rather than being suppressed by the police, the drug trade thrived and became the lucrative fiefdom of corrupt detectives and their close friends; so that, even though more people went to jail for drugs each year, every year there were more drugs on the street.

At the start of the War on Drugs, free market economist, Milton Friedman, declared that the failure of prohibition was inevitable because of corruption as officials succumbed to the lure of easy money: Said Friedman: “So long as large sums of money are involved—and they are bound to be if drugs are illegal—it is literally hopeless to expect to end the traffic or even to reduce seriously its scope.”22 As this paper shows, money spent on drug prohibition simply acts as a multiplier for the drug market, increasing the amount available for perverting officials. It is this capacity of the black market to corrupt the gatekeepers that causes prohibition to fail year after year. The result is the entrenched system of corruption whereby the drug trade continues under the protection of corrupt police.

The Cost of Drug Prohibition in Australia

Dr John Jiggens

full aticle

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/archive/00003442/01/3442.pdf

[FancyPants]

This issue is close to me though thankfully I haven't had anywhere near as bad a time as others would have.

Anyway I get recurrent kidney stones and let me tell you the pain is everything they say it is although I have gotten accustomed to it somewhat over the past nine years. From around May 07 I started getting the usual build-up bad stone pain. While waiting until Jan 08 for a procedure to remove them from clogging up my ureters (on the left it had almost totally blocked off making my kidney swell abnormally and there was then risk of nephropathy) the pain got worse and worse but my doctor gave me oxycontin 5mg X 20 tablets which while working great, only last a few hours. She was very tightarsed with them because she reckoned I was bunging it on so thus I looked for alternatives and discovered the joys of Cold Water Extraction for codeine. They also gave me tramadol which eventually gave me shakes so that was scaring me but she thought I was just saying that to get more oxy again *insane with rage*. So with all three I tried to mix up my doses to avoid as much tolerance and addictive potential as possible. It helped it but didn't stop either. At the height of my codeine use I was using a full 72 box of nurofen plus PER DOSE which is around 900mgs codeine (I would lose a little in the process). I was having extreme constipation but it didn't stop my appetite which made it worse. And I shaft codeine to get the best out of it. All for the pain. There were times I went to parties and took my supplies and an old drink bottle full of codeine water. I wouldn't have been able to socialise much otherwise. Yet she still wouldn't give me more oxy. I got oxycontins 10mgs around Christmas and it was the best present but they still didn't cut the pain as much so I was still using tramadol over the top of that.

My house went to shit while I was so sick (chronic infections) and could barely take care of myself. PLUS I'm in a wheelchair so everything's harder than usual anyway as well as I didn't have any flatmates from christmas onwards.

And she thought I was bunging it on to get a bit more oxycontin.

I drove myself to the local ER sometime in November on Saturday night just to get a shot of morphine which they thankfully gave me. I drove home 3 hours later even though you're supposed to wait 4hrs.

Bunging it on.

good point nabraxas!

nobody deserves pain, and as far as i know the world is strongly undersupplied with pharma grade opiates.

a 90 year old man i know, get's his pain relieved with some sort of morhine patch (i haven't checked this product out yet) but anyway, my point is that at some stages they gave him high doses of paracitamol to alternate the morphine and this i believe cause quite some strain on his liver at times as he's skin seemed to turn a bit yellow...

anyway, i believe morphin is putting less strain on the body than paracitamol.

so maybe hospitals use now more paracitamol than morphine just becaus of the "bad" association people have now with opiates, which is totaly the wrong way.

Whoever thought it would be a good idea to give that shit to a sickly 90year old man needs to have their head read and arse thrown into jail.

[Re-Grifter]

Whoever thought it would be a good idea to give that shit to a sickly 90year old man needs to have their head read and arse thrown into jail.

Unfortunately the quality of medical professionals in Australia these days is not what it should be.

[FancyPants]

^^^ That's a fact. They're the ones that put me IN the wheelchair.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Fancypants we can possibly help you.

Your pains may be beyond many of the lesser botanicals powers BUT perhaps you could "top" your opiates off with some herbs instead of shitty tramadol.

I suggest-

"Kratom" (Mitragyna speciosa)

Salvia species like nemorosa

Pedicularis species like densiflora "Indian Warrior" or "LouseWort"

I'll get back to you with more, somebody chime in if they know some good ones.

If I were you I'd have me a field of poppies and bunch of kratom and salvia nemorosa extracts.

[FancyPants]

Fancypants we can possibly help you.

Your pains may be beyond many of the lesser botanicals powers BUT perhaps you could "top" your opiates off with some herbs instead of shitty tramadol.

I suggest-

"Kratom" (Mitragyna speciosa)

Salvia species like nemorosa

Pedicularis species like densiflora "Indian Warrior" or "LouseWort"

I'll get back to you with more, somebody chime in if they know some good ones.

If I were you I'd have me a field of poppies and bunch of kratom and salvia nemorosa extracts.

Field of poppies holy hell I wish. I've read up on seed tea but I'm hesitant given the potential variation of potency. My grandmother apparently used to go out with her brothers and harvest some resin from scoring poppies out on the family farm. She's an original bush girl and a wealth of herbal knowledge. Unfortunately I can't pump her for info LOL

Kratom has recently been made illegal here D: but I shall look into s. nemorosa thank you Lousewort I've looked into too but haven't been able to find much on it

[baphomet]

Have you considered methadone? It would cost $5 a day, you would have to pick it up daily but it is a powerful analgesic.

[t st tantra]

methadone tablets can be prescribed for pain.

t s t .

[FancyPants]

She expected me to make do with 20 measely 5mg oxy tablets to last for a fortnight max but if I were to use them p.r.n I would be through them in three or four days. I can guarantee my asking for methadone would have only had her stopping prescribing the oxys and I could kiss all future chance of getting it goodbye Stupidly it wasn't until another doctor in that practice (who is a bit creepy and very arrogant) told me to try Ponstan for the ureteric cramps which is part source of the intense pain. Why didn't SHE tell me? Normally I research a lot of things myself so I'm kicking myself a bit for not thinking to try Ponstan, but FFS SHE is the GP who I pay money to help me.

I went back to see her for my contraceptive pill refill in August which was the first time I'd seen her since February because I've been well since the procedure. First thing she says to me? "You're looking well, don't need Endone anymore." Well f***ing hello to you too, you dirty f***ing bag of crunts. So I'm still in the process of getting my lazy arse to find another doctor who is conveniently local and who might actually have some compassion rather than being told to put up with it. I put up with the pain without opiates for years because I feared them after having had a fentanyl overdose (not my fault I guarantee you) until I finally realised analgesia is preferential to the minute chance of addiction.

I should mention that thankfully the pain isn't that bad anymore since I had the procedure (ESWL if anyone is interested, and even if you're not it's an interesting procedure to look at for curiosity's sake ) so I've only got mild pains here and there while a small stone is passing as they inevitably will every year or so.

Uhh sorry about the ramble, people.

[planthelper]

fancypants, i am worried that water extracting the codein, doesn't get rid of all the paracetamol. as such you might still harm your liver and your kidney stones might worsen the whole situation.

one of my friends back in oz, abused nuro plus and his liver was in a very bad shape, but for a while he had a prescription for codein pills, and his liver improofed fast, although he's an alcoholic.

in the same town where this is happening, the doctors don't prescribe any opiate painkillers and neither any anxiolitics, just because they think everybody wan't to just get high, or better chill out, on them.

this is a freightning development, people who would deserve those medications, just don't get them.

doctors can be very stupid, i asked for rohypnol, and he would not give it to me saying it's a date rape drug!!

so i had to go thru weeks of hardly sleeping at all, because, you guessed it, some people abuse medications, and the doctors are not able to differantiate the likely canditates.

after a while he gave me this other sleeping pill, saying, this is the good one, but once i checked the internet about this pill, i read, it's used aswell as a date rape drug.

anyway, when i was young, i believed aswell that plant herbs are save and good, and powders and crystalls are bad, but now i think every drug should be utelised if usefull and legalized.

if for example we take coca.

chewing the leaves without bica, nothing much happens.

smoking dried leaves, some mild effects.

coca tea, some mild efects.

chewing coca with bica, noticable effects.

snorting cocaine, or injecting it, strong effects.

smocking crack cocaine, very strong effects.

but the active compound stayed the same, only it's concentration and way of administering changed.

to bann the substance, will only increase the curiosety about it.

to bann the substance, doe's mean illegal operators will make a fortune, without paying tax.

millions are getting wasted of policing drug shippments, but drug supplies never stopped.

if one gang get's put away, an othe takes it's place.

the only thing i believe that helps is, education.

not every meth user, goes bonkers waveing a knive.

not every drunk, get's into fights.

not every pot head ends up being hooked on heroin.

i guess, it's impossible to draw a line between save and unsave, or legal and illegal, every drug has it's risks and it's properties. nut's got banned from schools, but not outright. some people die from mdma, but nobody writtes an article in the papers, killer peanuts, claimed other innocent young party goer.

[FancyPants]

The Killer Peanut User; the peanut other peanut users are scared of.

[baphomet]

methadone tablets can be prescribed for pain.

t s t .

Yea but not by a tight ass doctor who won't give him oxy's. Methadone tablets are rarely prescribed in Australia.

I was merely suggesting that if fancy pants really wanted to get pain relief so bad, methadone was definitely an option which would almost certainly not be denied to him, if he was to get addicted to heroin over a short period of time (or some unscrupulous people could even lie about that) he could easily be put on the methadone program but watch out fancy pants, lots of people die when initially getting on the program. Many of whom were put on it due to oxycontin addiction!

"analgesia is preferential to the minute chance of addiction."

Minute? .. Oxcontin has a "minute" chance of addiction? Your doctor only studied for 5+ years to prescribe drugs like this what would She know? Did you watch the documentary I recommended earlier? Cottonland?? It's about a whole town that has been ravaged by oxycontin addiction, WTF would they know? The film maker was an ex addict too, what would he know? You tell em fancy pants!

"I should mention that thankfully the pain isn't that bad anymore since I had the procedure"

So maybe it's better that you didn't have more oxycontin after all? I mean you are now pain free and free of addiction also, maybe the doctor did know what she was talking about and made the right decision for your long term health? Maybe there's more I don't know about the whole situation and I am being a little harsh.. I mean if the duration of you taking the oxys before the operation wasn't going to be that long perhaps she could have given you something stronger but people can get addicted to oxys in less than two weeks! There's a big difference between oxycontin and MS contin or Kappanol for example, basically it is MUCH more addictive! Pretty close second to heroin IMO! (if not worse!)

Tramadol was given to my father when he was dying and is quite a good drug despite it's tendency to cause seizures in some people, it is what I used when detoxing from methadone and was better than doloxine and shit like that and more importantly it is FAR LESS ADDICTIVE than just about any other opiate out there! Sounds to me like your doctor might not be the cruel, ignorant woman you are making her out to be and possibly had your best interests at heart! I'm impressed that she has even heard of tramal, not many doctors have, she probably prescribes that now because she had to look for a less addictive yet still effective opiod analgesic because some of her other clients have become addicted to oxy's, etc in the past? Are you sure you know best?

Edited September 17, 2008 by baphomet

[MindExpansion]

some people abuse medications, and the doctors are not able to differantiate the likely canditates.

Can you... just meeting them the first time, hell even the 50th time? If you say yes you aren't being honest.

Really, it is no surprise that Docs are cautious, the illegitimate use of prescription drugs is absolutely rampant and there is virtually no way of telling who really wants them and who wants to get high/sell them to someone who does.

I know that to you, at the time it seems like BS because you know what you want, but you have to understand that the doc's really can't be so sure, you see the one doc for those meds, they see hundreds of patients, some of whom probably are after a high.

Peace

[AndyAmine.]

he could easily be put on the methadone program but watch out fancy pants, lots of people die when initially getting on the program.

They do? Got any refferences for that?

When you say "lots" exatctly what do you mean by that?

Not syaing it doesnt happen but personaly I dont know one person that has OD'd puerly from thier prescribed dose methadone.

Most Dr's start a person on 20-40mg's which is usualy handled very well.

[MindExpansion]

Also, for someone relatively opiate naive, the Doc will start very very low if giving methadone for analgesia.

Peace

[baphomet]

They do?

Absolutely!! Methadone is dangerous because it's half life varies so much from patient to patient therefore many people have died from it's cumulative effects. Its respiratory/cardiac depressant effects last considerably longer than it's analgesic effects which makes it even more dangerous.

"Got any refferences for that?"

Sure..

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid...adone&hl=en

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=M...;aq=-1&oq=#

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid...vt=lf&hl=en (excuse the adds at the beginning)

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=I...;aq=-1&oq=#

http://opioids.com/methadone/scarestory.html

"When you say "lots" exatctly what do you mean by that?"

Well the second link from the top quotes statics that say that 10 people a day died in 2004 but I'm not sure if they were referring to across the whole world, The US or just Florida? The last link says that "There are no national figures for methadone deaths or overdoses. But the federal Drug Abuse Warning Network reported that in 2001, 10,725 people turned up in emergency rooms after having abused methadone. That is nearly double the number of such visits in 1999."

It's hard to put an exact figure on it but either way it is a dangerous drug! I don't personally know anyone who has died as a result of just methadone (that I'm aware of) but I have heard of a number of cases in Melbourne. It's probably more of a factor than what is generally recognised too because when people overdose on heroin they often have methadone in their system and fatal overdose is more common than with bupe, it's almost certainly a contributing factor in many overdoses that are just put down to heroin, like benzos and other CNS depressants that are commonly in the system of heroin addicts. Part of the reason that doctors prescribe bupe over dome so much is due to fear of potential litigation or other complications arising from methadone deaths.

"Most Dr's start a person on 20-40mg's which is usualy handled very well."

Usually.. but not always! That's why they start you on 30ml and get you to come back the next day and make sure that they see you regularly/daily when your increasing your dose until it has stabilized!

Edited September 17, 2008 by baphomet

[apothecary]

Are you sure you know best?

Nah, but we are all glad you are here to tell us

Edited September 17, 2008 by Sina

[baphomet]

Are you sure you know best = are you sure you know better than your doctor.

You know what I meant! Why make me out to be a know it all?

Edited September 18, 2008 by baphomet

[FancyPants]

Yea but not by a tight ass doctor who won't give him oxy's. Methadone tablets are rarely prescribed in Australia.

I was merely suggesting that if fancy pants really wanted to get pain relief so bad, methadone was definitely an option which would almost certainly not be denied to him, if he was to get addicted to heroin over a short period of time (or some unscrupulous people could even lie about that) he could easily be put on the methadone program but watch out fancy pants, lots of people die when initially getting on the program. Many of whom were put on it due to oxycontin addiction!

"analgesia is preferential to the minute chance of addiction."

Minute? .. Oxcontin has a "minute" chance of addiction? Your doctor only studied for 5+ years to prescribe drugs like this what would She know? Did you watch the documentary I recommended earlier? Cottonland?? It's about a whole town that has been ravaged by oxycontin addiction, WTF would they know? The film maker was an ex addict too, what would he know? You tell em fancy pants!

"I should mention that thankfully the pain isn't that bad anymore since I had the procedure"

So maybe it's better that you didn't have more oxycontin after all? I mean you are now pain free and free of addiction also, maybe the doctor did know what she was talking about and made the right decision for your long term health? Maybe there's more I don't know about the whole situation and I am being a little harsh.. I mean if the duration of you taking the oxys before the operation wasn't going to be that long perhaps she could have given you something stronger but people can get addicted to oxys in less than two weeks! There's a big difference between oxycontin and MS contin or Kappanol for example, basically it is MUCH more addictive! Pretty close second to heroin IMO! (if not worse!)

Tramadol was given to my father when he was dying and is quite a good drug despite it's tendency to cause seizures in some people, it is what I used when detoxing from methadone and was better than doloxine and shit like that and more importantly it is FAR LESS ADDICTIVE than just about any other opiate out there! Sounds to me like your doctor might not be the cruel, ignorant woman you are making her out to be and possibly had your best interests at heart! I'm impressed that she has even heard of tramal, not many doctors have, she probably prescribes that now because she had to look for a less addictive yet still effective opiod analgesic because some of her other clients have become addicted to oxy's, etc in the past? Are you sure you know best?

"Minute" was a very poor choice of word, probably should have left it out altogether. Though what I meant was that a person could suffer either in pain or with the possibility of addiction. Addiction is never guaranteed if you try harm minimisation which is why I tried to rotate the analgesics. "I don't have a pain management issue, I have a PAIN issue" says Dr House MD. I knew I had developed a tolerance and addiction to he oxy and codeine but I was still only using it for pain (although to be perfectly honest it does feel really nice when I've had higher doses. Normal doses didn't really get me "high" because I was trying to keep the dosages low as possible). Over that period of time I stopped oxy and codeine around three times each for various reasons and weaned myself off sensibly rather than cold turkey though it was still unpleasant. I proved to myself three (or so) times that I could do with the ever present subconscious warning that it doesn't guarantee the next time will be fine.

The procedure wait took far longer than it should have so of course the longer I waited the longer I would be exposed to addiction. I wanted to take the chances of that if it meant pain relief. Longer wait meant pain eventually got worse, and that the oxy dose became insufficient.

Basically all I wanted was some sort of long-acting ADEQUATE pain relief. Something like a low dose (but more than 10mg) oxycontin or mscontin so there's no peak and trough of effects. Tramadol is great for its duration but it wasn't enough to kill most of the pain. I've heard the opposite said of tramadol too though, that there's been quite of lot of people who have had bad reactions and a lot of people it does nothing for.

Also I would never assume to know more about medical facts than a GP which is why I said I pay them to treat me, not do it myself. However I felt like she didn't listen to me at all and is now letting her judgement that I was only seeking the oxy to get high cloud anything else I have or might say.

[notguilty]

Tell someone who is meant to care!

http://www.pm.gov.au/contact/index.cfm

I did

[FancyPants]

Oh wow I didn't even know that access existed. Thanks, Farm. Of course my automatic distrust of politicians make me doubt it would even be worth the effort of typing up an email.

[MindExpansion]

I'd probably tend to have to agree.

[Ace]

Tell someone who is meant to care!

http://www.pm.gov.au/contact/index.cfm

I did

Just a heads up, AFAIK any drug related complaints/comments directed at the PM (or any other high-level pollie) would just go through the appropriate Department that covers that subject (I think drugs fall under Dept of Health) where a run of the mill public servant will answer on behalf of the Minister of that Dept. The response would be pretty much standard policy words that would just reiterate that drugs are bad, but thank you for raising your concerns (not the public servants fault that the response is crap/not what you want to hear, that's just them doing what their told).

I've often wondered what the next step up the ladder is when you probably cant even get an answer from the bloke in the top job. I guess its all about forcing positive change on the policy (the stuff that laws are made of) which could be done by through petitions, solid arguements in court pushing against current legislation, etc (struggling to think of other ideas). I think these would be good places to start, but contacting the PM directly probably wont be worth the hassle IMO. That said, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say in relation to your complaint/comments/suggestions entheofarm (would love to see it posted for our info, should you be comfortable doing so).

[notguilty]

It's a basic internet contact form....

But if you don't have the time, fair enough....

http://www.pm.gov.au/contact/index.cfm

Not comfortable yet Ace, but its not far off, It will be balls to the wall full identification and all correspondence posted, its a lot of F#@KING reading I can assure you of that.

Thank you for your message to the Prime Minister.

Below is a copy of your comments to the Prime Minister for your records.

If you have supplied a postal address, a reply may be sent to you via Australia Post.

Your message may also be forwarded to other Federal Ministers for their consideration.

This is an automatically generated email. Please do not reply to this email as this

address is not monitored. If you have any

problems with this service please contact the Web Administrator through the site

feedback service at www.pm.gov.au/feedback/

--------------------- Copy of your comments ------------------------

Name:

Email Address:

Postal Address:

Subject: HUMAN RIGHTS, FREEDOM OF CHOICES AND THE COST OF PROHIBITION

Comment: To the Hon Kevin Rudd

Enough is enough Mr Rudd, My family are in fear of the police, my complaints against

the police are dealt with by the police and I have no avenue of recourse at all.

I have sought assistance from every possible avenue.

Mr Rudd it needs to stop. You need to stop it. you need to stop drug prohibition

related crimes. It is costing more than money! it is costing lives!

Mr Rudd I would like for you to view my court breif regarding Human rights and the

possesion of half a gram of cannabis but as a single parent pensioner who has been

refused legal aid I am unable to make the required copies for court let alone a copy

for the Prime Minister of Australia. I will not be entitled to my constitutional

rights!

Mr Rudd I am a very proud Australian and I love my country but I am quickly losing

faith in our policies, especially when they permit armed militants to constantly invade

my home in the pursuit of an illegal and unconstitutional war on drugs.

Mr Rudd if you require evidence to support my loss of faith I am happy to provide it,

But sadly by the time any one of authority gets to review it thousands of more lives

will be destroyed by the "war on drugs".

Please don't ignore the facts anymore, enough is enough.

It is not hard to find out who I am. I can't hide anymore. My grammar still sucks though.

Edited September 18, 2008 by entheofarm