Auxin Posted July 8, 2008 Browsing the cactus books I was reminded of this species which little has ever been said of. Anderson had this to say of its ethnobotany: Neoraimondia arequipensis is a Peruvian cactus reported to be used as an ingredient in the psychoactive drink called cimora, drunk at various ceremonies and containing material of the San Pedro cactus as well (Ostolaza et al. 1985,64). Its alkaloids have not been determined.Most other sources say it was infact N. macrostibas which was recorded as being used with T. pachanoi. Following Andersons ref it seems that N. arequipensis has no mescaline but does have related alkaloids such as 3,4-dimethoxy-ß-phenethylamine and 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxy-ß-phenethylamine so I am left to wonder, if it was this cactus or if N. macrostibas has a similar alkaloid profile is this addition of Neoraimondia cactus to cimora brews meant to 'flavor' the psychoactive effects of T. pachanoi through synergy or is it psychoactive independant of T. pachanoi? In PiHKAL 3,4-dimethoxy-ß-phenethylamine is reported as having no effects whatsoever when taken alone, however there is no section in PiHKAL for 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxy-ß-phenethylamine so its activity is still in question.Anyone heard of these matters being tested? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 8, 2008 THANKS for posting!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spiniflores Posted July 8, 2008 very interesting but I dont have more information about it. Just this scanned page from New Cactus Lexicon (David Hunt, 2006) and here you can download the same image but bigger size: http://rapidshare.com/files/128158409/neoraimondia_NCL.rar good luck 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 12, 2008 I'd really like to cultivate this, and the other "cimora" brew botancials. What is the most reputely psychoactive species? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M S Smith Posted July 13, 2008 very interesting but I dont have more information about it. Just this scanned page from New Cactus Lexicon (David Hunt, 2006) and here you can download the same image but bigger size: http://rapidshare.com/files/128158409/neoraimondia_NCL.rar good luck Spiniflores, Welcome To The Corroboree! I've been a fan of your Flickr page for awhile, but I didn't think you were particularly interested in this facet of cacti. I have yet to get the New Cactus Lexicon, and seeing that you have the scan on Neoraimondia I was just curious if you might have uploaded ones for E. pachanoi, E. peruviana, E. langeniformis and the one I really want, pictures of E. scopulicola growing in habitat in Tarija. Damn, maybe I should just go and order the book right now...honestly I forgot all about it having been published. ~Michael~ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted January 20, 2011 Well I'm finally gonna grow this critter, seeds are on their way now I should note that N. macrostibas and N. arequipensis were brought into synonymity. I cant find much on growing it other than it being regarded as being totally frost intolerant. Anyone know how much growth could be expected in the first year, what soil it might prefer, or how much ferts or water it can tolerate? In the absence of info I'll just grow it like a frost-intolerant trich since Anderson lists its distribution as 'coastal and lower Andean Peru'. Has anyone here ever managed to taste one? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shortly Posted January 20, 2011 I have but a single surviving seedling from a pack of 10 seeds, they were very slow in their first year only reaching an inch or so. It is now just over 2 years and nearly a foot tall so its making up for lost time I cant comment on frost, i never get frost here & mine is in a glasshouse to keep it dryish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zelly Posted January 21, 2011 I have yet to get the New Cactus Lexicon, and seeing that you have the scan on Neoraimondia I was just curious if you might have uploaded ones for E. pachanoi, E. peruviana, E. langeniformis and the one I really want, pictures of E. scopulicola growing in habitat in Tarija. Damn, maybe I should just go and order the book right now...honestly I forgot all about it having been published. ~Michael~ Michael- I have the two book set of the New Cactus Lexicon and can tell you there is no color plates for E. scopulicola in the book. I knew I shouldn't have shit-canned that HP Scanjet IIcx flat bed scanner I had. Damn thing was a major boat anchor though. & fwiw I have what appears to be an N. herzogiana around 14" tall. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
solomon Posted January 21, 2011 Spineflores i've also perved through your flickr pages interesting stuff, they look a bit like some euphorbias 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted January 21, 2011 Thanks shortly, that'll help me decide where to plant them this year. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CβL Posted January 23, 2011 Hmmm. It could also be that this cactus was used for MAO inhibition. 3,4-Dimethoxyphenethylamine appears to act as one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/886445 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted January 23, 2011 Well I'll be damned, thats good to know. So if it were tested with san pedro and did have a marked effect the next logical step would be to compare that effect with the combination of ß-carbolines in test 2, as well as grapefruit in test 3 with the same dose of san pedro. Sometimes I wish I were down in peru. ...actually, most times 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted January 23, 2011 Auxin, could you remind me of grapefruit qualities? I remember people saying DO NOT use grapefruit instead of lemon in a mushroom tea or something. Is it an inhibitor different to what harmine/harmaline and relatives is? Well that's pretty interesting. Unfortunately it seems it could be pretty hard to get material for testing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah harm(al)ine is a reversible MAO inhibitor, grapefruit is an irreversible CYP 3A4 inhibitor. Thats why grapefruit is so dangerous with many pharmaceutical drugs, many drugs are metabolized by CYP 3A4 and screwing with it can abnormally increase or decrease a drugs effects (depending if its a 3A4 activated pro-drug or a 3A4 cleared drug). By default never mix a drug that can be easily overdosed on with grapefruit as it might make the drug ten times more potent. Mescaline is often hypothesized to be metabolized by CYP 2D6 rather than 3A4 because of the fact that many closely related amphetamines and SSRIs are 2D6 substrates but as far as I know the metabolic route of mescaline is still unproven and mescaline may well be a pro-drug to boot. And mescaline isnt the only potentially active drug/pro-drug in cactus. So the frequent reports of grapefruit potentiating cactus should be given weight despite the expectation that mescaline may be primarily a 2D6 substrate. Moreover, 3A4 is very dynamic.. having a broad ability to metabolize drugs, and its abundant in the gut. Even if 2D6 were far more powerful in metabolizing mescaline in the test tube few drugs can only be metabolized by one enzyme, and intestinal 3A4 could still cause a big impact before the drug got to the liver. That relationship would be roughly akin to inhibiting MAO to let DMT from ayahuasca past the intestines and into the blood where it would eventually be metabolized by other stuff. So yeah, theyre different critters 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
