"White Peyote"

[Garbage]

Looks diseased to me,the corky condition of cultivation.

Some say red spider mite.

Codex Borgia is on the way,i will look for Peyote within.

[spunwhirllin]

If you're refering to my pic,they're not diseased.Thats just the manner in which they grow.The seed of the grey's came from knize,maybe they're not lophophora at all.

[kadakuda]

does this white form's colour look anything like this skin colour?

[Teotzlcoatl]

The way the guy I talked to made it sound is that they are "Ashy White"... So I guess a greyish-white...

I've never actually seen Lophophora decipiens var. brackii from Viesca, tho I want to very much...

Comment by Mr.Smith, here-

It should be of interest though to know that L. decipiens, a plant that that comes from the same immediate region and is pretty much the same as L. fricii with some minor variability from their particular niches, has been shown to have pellotine to mescaline concentrations similar to L. williamsii.

Edited July 6, 2008 by Teotz'

[Spiniflores]

The Fabled White Peyote of The Grand Canyon and Four Corners Area-

Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 10,000 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote...

Hello

The problem is that there are no data or photo of the suposed fossil. and if it exist, it will be the first discovery of a cacti fossilized.

or they mean little pieces of a cactus?

Anyway the tissue of peyote is very soft... I think that is impossible or very improbable that the tissue of that specie remains for so long.

Here is a scanned part of a book of chilean cacti (but the author is from Australia). He works with cacti and made an interesting study with C14

cheers!!

[George]

Could it be the aura's they were talkin about.

Power plants usually have a whitish/ultra-violet aura.

????

[Teotzlcoatl]

I don't think so... I think the plant actually has a white-greyish color, who knows tho, the myths can be read a million different ways..

[Teotzlcoatl]

What kind of argument can be made for the distictiveness of Lophophora brackii / Lophophora decepiens var. brackii as a species and not just a strain???

Does anybody know ANYTHING esle about this cactus?

[Gunter]

I heard that that pete stuff was made up. Like Casteneda or something.

[Teotzlcoatl]

What did Lophophora cacti look like 6000 years ago when they were in use then?

What peoples used these cacti at that time?

What was ancient Lophophora's range?

What are Lophophora's closest relatives?

What was did Lophophora's ancestors looks like?

Do the many small Mexican cacti have a common ancestor?

Edited September 27, 2008 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Can anybody help me with the questions in the above post?

What did Lophophora cacti look like 6000 years ago when they were in use then?

[Micromegas]

Can anybody help me with the questions in the above post?

I thought you were a fan of doing independent research

Erowid comes up trumps. Here's an interesting article: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view...;DocPartID=6131

The two peyote samples analyzed are kept in the Witte

Museum collection in San Antonio, Texas. They were presumably

found in Shumla Cave No. 5 by George Martin

in 1933 (Martin, 1937) and identified by him as coming

from Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, but the museum

documentation is not very specific. A photograph of the

specimens has been published by Boyd and Dering (1996,

Fig. 12, p. 269), who also accepted this identification. Only

the inner parts of the two samples were scraped out with

a fine knife so as not to destroy the appearance of the

two specimens. These “inner scrapings” had the form of

a coarse, brownish-grey powder. The two samples were

analyzed individually for alkaloids and radiocarbon dated

separately...

Standard alkaloid extraction procedures carried out on

the samples gave residues that tested positive for alkaloids

(orange colour) with the Dragendorff reagent. The alkaloid

yield was approximately 2% in both samples...

The age of the two specimens of peyote “buttons” that we

have now dated is to be found in the calendric time interval

3780–3660 BC. The earlier reported radiocarbon date

of 7000 years BP has not been formally published, only as

a personal communication in a book review...

From a scientific point of view, the now studied “mescal

buttons” appears to be the oldest plant drugs which ever

yielded a major bioactive compound upon phytochemical

analysis. From a cultural perspective, our identification of

mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans

already recognized and valued the psychotropic properties

of the peyote cactus 5700 years ago.

There you go then. Nothing about them being white though!

Edited September 28, 2008 by Micromegas

[Teotzlcoatl]

I can't remember how but if you read the full file on that you'll discover some sort of connection... does anybody have it?

Yes, I found it!!!

Here it is-

Prehistoric peyote use: Alkaloid analysis and radiocarbon dating

of archaeological specimens of Lophophora from Texas

Hesham R. El-Seedi a,b, Peter A.G.M. De Smetc, Olof Beckd,

G¨oran Possnert e, Jan G. Bruhn a,∗

a Division of Pharmacognosy, Department of Medicinal Chemistry, Biomedical Centre, Uppsala University, Box 574, SE-751 23 Uppsala, Sweden

b Department of Chemistry, Faculty of Science, El-Menoufia University, El-Menoufia, Shebin El-Kom, Egypt

c Department of Clinical Pharmacy, University Medical Centre St Radboud, Nijmegen, The Netherlands

d Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Karolinska University Hospital, SE-171 76 Stockholm, Sweden

e Department of Materials Science, ˚ Angstr¨om Laboratory, Uppsala University, SE-751 21 Uppsala, Sweden

Received 15 October 2004; received in revised form 7 March 2005; accepted 27 April 2005

Available online 28 June 2005

Abstract

Two archaeological specimens of peyote buttons, i.e. dried tops of the cactus Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, from the collection of

theWitte Museum in San Antonio, was subjected to radiocarbon dating and alkaloid analysis. The samples were presumably found in Shumla

Cave No. 5 on the Rio Grande, Texas. Radiocarbon dating shows that the calibrated 14C age of the weighted mean of the two individual dated

samples corresponds to the calendric time interval 3780–3660 BC (one sigma significance). Alkaloid extraction yielded approximately 2%

of alkaloids. Analysis with thin-layer chromatography (TLC) and gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) led to the identification

of mescaline in both samples. No other peyote alkaloids could be identified.

The two peyote samples appear to be the oldest plant drug ever to yield a major bioactive compound upon chemical analysis. The identification

of mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans recognized the psychotropic properties of peyote as long as 5700 years

ago.

© 2005 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

Keywords: Lophophora williamsii; Peyote; Mescal buttons; Mescaline

1. Introduction

“A chemical compound once formed would persist forever,

if no alteration took place in the surrounding conditions.”

Thomas Henry Huxley (1825–1895) English Biologist/

Evolutionists. (cited by Asimov and Schulman, 1988).

The origins of drug use will probably never be fully

understood, but some artefacts have survived, such as archaeological

samples of drugs, their containers and related paraphernalia.

One of the most fascinating, although very minor,

Abbreviations: BC, before Christ; BCE, before Christian era; BP, before

present; CE, Christian era

∗ Corresponding author. Tel.: +46 708 97 27 68; fax: +46 8 618 69 32.

E-mail address: [email protected] (J.G. Bruhn).

approaches for drug research lies in the analysis and interpretation

of such remains. Sometimes this field of science

has been referred to as archeobotany or archaeoethnobotany

(Schultes and von Reis, 1995).

The collections of many ethnographical museums comprise

paraphernalia for ritual drug taking, and sometimes the

drug itself or its vegetal source is also present. In such cases,

botanical examination still may reveal the identity of the drug

source, especially if it can be backed up by the results of

chemical analysis (De Smet, 1995).

Archaeological investigations in Northeast Mexico and

Trans-Pecos Texas have demonstrated that the knowledge

of psychotropic drugs in this region goes back to ca. 8500

BCE (De Smet and Bruhn, 2003). The aboriginal inhabitants

of this region may have used both the so called “red” or

0378-8741/$ – see front matter © 2005 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

doi:10.1016/j.jep.2005.04.022

H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 239

“mescal bean”, from Sophora secundiflora (Ort.) Lagasca ex

De Candolle and “mescal buttons”, dried slices of the peyote

cactus, Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter (Adovasio

and Fry, 1976; Boyd and Dering, 1996). Unlike peyote, the

mescal bean has been used extensively for ornamental purposes

(Merrill, 1977), so we cannot know for sure that it has

been used for psychoactive effects.

Previously, from one of the archaeological sites in

Coahuila, Mexico, a number of “mescal buttons” were

retrieved and Carbon-14 dated to 810–1070 CE. Alkaloid

analysis revealed the presence of mescaline and four

related tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids, anhalonidine, pellotine,

anhalonine and lophophorine. Compared to freshly

prepared “mescal buttons” there was a considerably lower

alkaloid content (2.25% compared to ca. 8% in a recent sample)

(Bruhn et al., 1978).

Some years ago, one of the authors (De Smet) came across

two peyote “buttons” in the exhibition of the Witte Museum

in San Antonio, Texas. Although the museum documentation

is not very specific, the most likely origin of these “buttons” is

one of the Shumla caves, in the lower Pecos region, or another

archaeological rock shelter in Southwestern Texas (Boyd and

Dering, 1996; Martin, 1937). Previously, these plant remains

have been subjected to Carbon-14 dating and their age has

been reported as “7000 years”. However, all the information

we have on that dating is from a book review, where this bare

date is given as a personal communication to the reviewer

(Furst, 1989).

With the kind help of the museum curators, two samples

for phytochemical analysis and renewed Carbon-14 dating

were prepared from the buttons in the collection. We here

present the full results of these analyses. A preliminary communication

of the results has appeared in The Lancet (Bruhn

et al., 2002). In this paper, the methods are described in full

detail.

2. Materials and methods

2.1. Plant material

The two peyote samples analyzed are kept in the Witte

Museum collection in San Antonio, Texas. They were presumably

found in Shumla Cave No. 5 by George Martin

in 1933 (Martin, 1937) and identified by him as coming

from Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, but the museum

documentation is not very specific. A photograph of the

specimens has been published by Boyd and Dering (1996,

Fig. 12, p. 269), who also accepted this identification. Only

the inner parts of the two samples were scraped out with

a fine knife so as not to destroy the appearance of the

two specimens. These “inner scrapings” had the form of

a coarse, brownish-grey powder. The two samples were

analyzed individually for alkaloids and radiocarbon dated

separately.

2.2. Alkaloid extraction

Two different procedures were employed:

(A) The powdered samples (680 and 416 mg, respectively)

were extracted at room temperature three times with

EtOH (300 ml) for 48 h each time with stirring. The combined

ethanol extracts were filtered and evaporated in

vacuo to give 61.2 and 31.2 mg of oily residues, respectively.

The residues were dissolved in H2O, made alkaline

with conc ammonia (pH 9) and extracted twice with

CHCl3 and once with CHCl3:EtOH (3:1). The combined

extracts were dried over Na2SO4 anhydrous, filtered

and evaporated to dryness to yield 13.59 mg (2%) and

8.31 mg (2%), respectively, of total alkaloids.

( To 100 mg of each of the two samples, 3ml of 10%

HCl was added in an Ehrlenmeyer flask and the flasks

immersed in a boiling water bath for 15 min. The solutions

were filtered through Whatman No. 1 filter paper,

and the residues were washed with 10 ml distilled H2O.

The filtrates were then extracted three times with Et2O

(20 ml). The resulting emulsions were centrifuged at

1500 rpm. The ether layers were dried over anhydrous

Na2SO4, filtered and evaporated to dryness to give

1.99 mg (2%) and 1.95 mg (2%), respectively, of the

alkaloid fraction.

The alkaloid extracts were tested with Dragendorff’s

reagent using Whatman No. 1 filter paper.

2.3. Thin-layer chromatography

Thin-layer chromatography was carried out on silica gel

coated plates (20 cm×20 cm, 0.25mm layer) in the system:

CHCl3:BuOH:conc NH4OH (50:50:2.5) according to

Lundstr¨om and Agurell (1967). After elution, the residue

of ammonia was removed by careful drying in a heated

oven. The plates were sprayed with ninhydrin reagent (purple

colour with mescaline, rf value 0.46) and iodoplatinate—

Dragendorff’s reagent (brownish-purple colour with mescaline)

(Lum and Lebish, 1974).

2.4. Gas chromatography–mass spectrometry

The gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS)

data were obtained using a Voyager quadropole GC–MS

instrument (ThermoFinnigan Inc., CA, USA) operating in the

full scan electron impact mode. A 2 l aliquot of the extract

was injected by split-less injection into a 30m HP-5 MS

capillary column (0.25mm i.d. and 0.25 m film thickness,

Agilent Technologies, CA, USA). The injector temperature

was 200 ◦C, ion source 230 ◦C, column temperature was held

at 100 ◦C for 1 min and increased to 250 ◦C at a rate of

30 ◦C/min.

2.5. Radiocarbon dating

A simplified chemical pre treatment was applied to the

samples (19.8 and 19.2 mg, respectively) by using 1% HCl

240 H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242

below boiling for 6 h. This will mainly eliminate adsorbed

CO2 and remove other carbonate fractions of no relevance to

the dating. The insoluble fraction was then rinsed in distilled

water and dried. Approximately a 60% yield was obtained in

this first preparation step. Combustion of the organic fraction

was then conducted with CuO at 800 ◦C for ca. 10 min and

the CO2 gas graphitized at 750 ◦C with an excess of H2 gas

and Fe present as a catalyst. A carbon content of ca. 30% was

achieved. A small part of the CO2 gas (ca. 0.1 mg) was used

for stable isotope analysis, 13C, in a VG OPTIMA dual inlet

mass spectrometer to determine the natural mass fractionation.

Radiocarbon was finally measured with the Uppsala

new AMS system based on a 5MV NEC pelletronTM tandem

accelerator running in pulsed mode.

3. Results

3.1. Radiocarbon dating

The results for the two individual peyote samples Ua-

12433 and Ua-12434 are given in Figs. 1 and 2.

A calibrated age (computer code OxCal v.3.9) for the

weighted mean age (4952±44 BP) of the two dated samples

(5030±65 BP(13C=−16.1‰ VPDB), Ua-12433)

and 4885±60 BP (13C=−22.3‰ VPDB), Ua-12434)

corresponds to the following time intervals: (1, 68.2%

probability) 3780–3690 (57.8%) and 3680–3660 (10.4%)

calender age BC; (2, 95.4% probability) 3910–3870 (4%)

and 3800–3640 (91.4%) calender age BC (Fig. 3).

3.2. Alkaloid analysis

Standard alkaloid extraction procedures carried out on

the samples gave residues that tested positive for alkaloids

(orange colour) with the Dragendorff reagent. The alkaloid

yield was approximately 2% in both samples. The extracts

Fig. 1. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according

to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Sample Ua-12433.

Fig. 2. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according

to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Sample Ua-12434.

were then analyzed by thin-layer chromatography and gas

chromatography–mass spectrometry. Mescaline could be

identified in both samples, based on identical retention times

(GC) (Fig. 4) and rf values (TLC) and mass spectrum as

authentic mescaline (Fig. 5).

The samples were also checked for the possible presence

of the major peyote tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids:

lophophorine, anhalonine, pellotine and anhalonidine. There

was no trace of these alkaloids in either of the two samples.

4. Discussion

“The deliberate seeking of the psychoactive experience is

likely to be at least as old as anatomically (and behaviourally)

modern humans: one of the characteristics of Homo sapiens

sapiens.” Andrew Sherratt (1995).

Fig. 3. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according

to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Weighted mean age of the two samples:

Ua-12433 and Ua-12434.

H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 241

Fig. 4. GC–MS analysis (total ion chromatogram) of peyote alkaloid extract

(sample Ua-12433).

The detection of mescaline in both of the two investigated

samples, both analyzed by two methods based on different

principles, is reliable evidence for the presence of this hallucinogenic

drug. Recently dried “mescal buttons” can contain

up to about 8% of total alkaloids, of which about 30% is

mescaline (Bruhn and Holmstedt, 1974). In the present analysis,

alkaloid content was approximately 2% and the only

peyote alkaloid we could identify was mescaline. There was

no trace of any of the tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids usually

found in peyote (Kapadia and Fayez, 1973). In a previously

studied 1000-year old specimen of peyote the alkaloid content

was slightly higher, about 2.25%, and four tetrahydroisoquinoline

alkaloids could be identified by GC–MS (Bruhn

et al., 1978).

The age of the two specimens of peyote “buttons” that we

have now dated is to be found in the calendric time interval

3780–3660 BC. The earlier reported radiocarbon date

of 7000 years BP has not been formally published, only as

a personal communication in a book review (Furst, 1989).

Fig. 5. Mass spectrum of mescaline peak in peyote alkaloid extract (sample

Ua-12433).

Furst gives the following information: “A new radiocarbon

date has unexpectedly added six millennia to the cultural

history of Lophophora williamsii,- - - the new C-14 assay

was obtained by the isotope laboratory at UCLA from one

of the two well-preserved plants that had languished, their

historical significance unsuspected, for many years in the

archaeological collections of the Witte Museum in San Antonio.

The two plants were excavated in 1933 with other Desert

Culture remains in one of the Rio Grande rock shelters known

as the Shumla Caves. I would like to thank Rainer Berger,

Director of the Isotope Laboratory in the Institute of Geophysics

and Planetary Physics at UCLA, for the C-14 date

on the Witte Museum’s peyote sample,- - -” (Furst, 1989). It

has not been possible to obtain more information regarding

that radiocarbon dating, which has been seriously questioned

(Dering, personal communication).

Earlier, nicotine and caffeine have been identified in plant

remains from a medicineman’s tomb in Bolivia, 1600 years

old (Bruhn et al., 1976; Holmstedt and Lindgren, 1972), and

morphine has been found in a 3500-year-old ceramic container

from Cyprus (Bisset et al., 1996).

The preservation of plant remains in archaeological sites

varies greatly, depending upon the environmental setting.

There are many changes that can take place in plant tissues

during drying and/or processing, but under appropriate conditions

of preservation alkaloids can obviously persist in plant

material for extended periods of time (Raffauf and Morris,

1960). Thus, dry cave deposits in arid areas, such as Texas or

Coahuila, are ideal for the recovery of plant materials (Willey,

1995). Dry, non-powdered plant tissues and cells may actually

be regarded as containers that can help to protect the

enclosed phytochemicals.

Interestingly, some South American mummies have been

shown to contain cocaine metabolites, indicative of coca

chewing. Coca leaves were chewed by many Andean pre-

Columbian Indian groups, and the cocaine metabolite benzoylecgonine

has been found in the scalp hair of 8 Chilean

mummies with dates ranging from 2000 BC to 1500 AD

(Cartmell et al., 1991). Baez et al. (2000) also studied hair of

Chilean mummies for traces of cocaine, opiates and cannabis,

but revealed exclusively negative results in all 19 samples.

As discussed by Wischmann et al. (2002), the investigation

of archaeological human remains for active substances from

drugs requires specific analytical strategies that incorporate

also their persistent metabolites.

The question how long humans have used psychoactive

plants is impossible to answer (Schultes, 1998). In theWestern

hemisphere the above-mentioned findings of the seeds

of Sophora secundiflora (Ort.) Lag. ex DC., now known as

the red bean or mescal bean, seem to be the oldest (Naranjo,

1995). These seeds are found in the same and similar caves as

the now analyzed cactus samples, but in much deeper strata

and radiocarbon dated to 8440–8120 BC (Adovasio and Fry,

1976). However, there are some doubts as to the actual ingestion

of these beans, which also have an important place as

ornamental beads (Merrill, 1977).

242 H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242

Items of material culture recovered from the Shumla Cave

excavations are similar to the paraphernalia used in peyote

ceremonies by various Indian groups, and include rasping

sticks made from bone or wood, a rattle made from deer

scapula, a pouch and reed tubes containing cedar incense,

and feather plumes (Martin, 1937; Stewart, 1987). Also, interpretation

of the rock art pictographs from the Lower Pecos

cultural area adds evidence indicating great antiquity for the

use of peyote (Boyd and Dering, 1996).

From a scientific point of view, the now studied “mescal

buttons” appears to be the oldest plant drugs which ever

yielded a major bioactive compound upon phytochemical

analysis. From a cultural perspective, our identification of

mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans

already recognized and valued the psychotropic properties

of the peyote cactus 5700 years ago.

Acknowledgements

The authors would like to express their sincere thanks to

Roberta McGregor, Curator, and Elisa Phelps, Director of

Collections, who provided samples and documentation of the

early peyote “buttons” in the Witte Museum in San Antonio,

Texas. Dr. Phil Dering offered helpful comments and

insights. Nikolai Stephanson assisted us in the GC–MS analysis.

We are very grateful to the Swedish Institute, Stockholm,

Sweden, for a post-doctoral scholarship to HRE, and to the

International Foundation for Science (F/3334-1) for partial

financial support.

References

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Northeastern Mexico and Trans-Pecos Texas. Economic Botany 30,

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and Nature Quotations. Weidenfeld & Nicholson, New York.

Baez, H., Castro, M.M., Benavente, M.A., Kintz, P., Cirimele, V.,

Camargo, C., Thomas, C., 2000. Drugs in prehistory: chemical

analysis of ancient human hair. Forensic Science International 108,

173–179.

Bisset, N.G., Bruhn, J.G., Zenk, M.H., 1996. The presence of opium in

a 3500 year old cypriote base-ring juglet. Egypt and the Levant 6,

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in the sediments and pictographs of the Lower Pecos, Texas

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use for 5700 years. Lancet 359, 1866.

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study. Economic Botany 28, 353–390.

Bruhn, J.G., Holmstedt, B., Lindgren, J.-E., Wass´en, S.H., 1976. The

Tobacco from Nino Korin: Identification of Nicotine in a Bolivian

Archaeological Collection. Ethnographical Museum of Gothenburg,

Annual Report, pp. 45–48.

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alkaloids: identification in a prehistoric specimen of Lophophora from

Coahuila, Mexico. Science 199, 1437–1438.

Cartmell, L.W., Aufderheide, A., Weems, C., 1991. Cocaine metabolites in

pre-Columbian mummy hair. Journal of the Oklahoma State Medical

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approach to the study of ritual hallucinogenic plants. In: Schultes,

R.E., von Reis, S. (Eds.), Ethnobotany: Evolution of a Discipline.

Dioscorides Press, Portland, Oregon, pp. 369–382.

De Smet, P.A.G.M., Bruhn, J.G., 2003. Ceremonial peyote use and

its antiquity in the Southern United States. HerbalGram 53, 30–

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Stewart. American Ethnologist 16, 386–387.

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more than a 1000 years old. Etnologiska Studier (Gothenburg) 32,

139–144.

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peyote alkaloids. Journal of the Forensic Science Society 14,

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alkaloids. Journal of Chromatography 30, 271–272.

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(There was some graphs and stuff that I didn't put in)

Some years ago, one of the authors (De Smet) came across

two peyote “buttons” in the exhibition of the Witte Museum

in San Antonio, Texas. Although the museum documentation

is not very specific, the most likely origin of these “buttons” is

one of the Shumla caves, in the lower Pecos region, or another

archaeological rock shelter in Southwestern Texas

The two plants were excavated in 1933 with other Desert

Culture remains in one of the Rio Grande rock shelters known

as the Shumla Caves.

Close to where "White Peyote" supposely once grew.

I'd like to know where Wiki got this-

The Fabled White Peyote of The Grand Canyon and Four Corners Area-

Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 10,000 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote and were larger and more domed in comparison to modern populations of Lophophora williamsii. These samples also contained up to 6% mescaline by weight even after thousands of years in a desiccated state. Modern Lophophora varieties average 3% mescaline in comparison. The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times[citation needed], called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency.

Recent discoveries and botanical evidence indicates modern Lophophora species may in fact be divergent hybrids of Lophophora diffusa and a species recently named Lophophora brackii[citation needed], a high altitude domed "white" peyote with 'Z' patterns and articulated ribbing that originates from a single population confined to a mountain near Viesca, in the northern state of Coahuila, Mexico. Modern Lophophora varieties exhibit pollen structure which ranges from 3 pored pollen from its western ranges up to 9 pored pollen in the Eastern Range where Lophophora decipiens grows under extremely arid conditions, characteristics of a natural hybrid. Lophophora diffusa more closely resembles primitive cacti than the other Lophophora varieties and this species also exists as an isolated population in a mountainous area and is more cold tolerant[citation needed] than Lophophora williamsii populations.

Cause it just sounds like a screwed up verison of the above paper.

So HOW are Lophophora decipiens var. brackii and "White Peyote" connected? Simply by this Wiki paragraph? W.T.F. was Wiki's source, cause it sounds made-up as HELL!!!

The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times[citation needed], called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency.

Can anybody come up with this myth? Got a link? or a copy?

Edited September 28, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

So HOW are Lophophora decipiens var. brackii and "White Peyote" connected? Simply by this Wiki paragraph? W.T.F. was Wiki's source, cause it sounds made-up as HELL!!!

I wouldnt trust wiki for 100% accuracy - especially on a topic like this. I'd say it is either made up or a rumour. 'White peyote' and 'cosmic potency' - it sounds like it is complete tripe IMO, but I suppose it could have origins as a fable or something and someone may have uploaded it on that basis. Who knows - I seriously doubt anything will come of this.

[klaw]

I don't think so... I think the plant actually has a white-greyish color, who knows tho, the myths can be read a million different ways..

sorry folks but this brackii, don't exsist.

the fable "white lopho" is nothing more than a L.Fricci ,

which is common for this plant to produce variegates when crossed with another lopho,mainly L.diffusa

decipens usually has the thicker coating of chaulk , but it also grows in more exposed locations in the wild.. hence the chaulk making the plant appear white. Wipe the chaulk away, and you will see grey/green.

has anyone ask Steve Brack about this, cause the location is L.fricci , and already has taxo.

i have at least 300+ fricci from same plant stock and many different body forms occurr, nothing to give the plant a new name.

[Teotzlcoatl]

From what I can tell there are at least two kinds of Lophophora decipens, possibly more...

Lophophora decipiens forma. brackii and Lophophora decipiens...

One with raised diamond "Z" shaped turbercled ribs and the other with diffused non-tubercled ribs.

Give me some time and ill edit and make a full post.

[kadakuda]

sorry folks but this brackii, don't exsist.

the fable "white lopho" is nothing more than a L.Fricci ,

which is common for this plant to produce variegates when crossed with another lopho,mainly L.diffusa

decipens usually has the thicker coating of chaulk , but it also grows in more exposed locations in the wild.. hence the chaulk making the plant appear white. Wipe the chaulk away, and you will see grey/green.

has anyone ask Steve Brack about this, cause the location is L.fricci , and already has taxo.

i have at least 300+ fricci from same plant stock and many different body forms occurr, nothing to give the plant a new name.

any more info on your fricii/diffusa hybrid? i would love to know about it!

[Teotzlcoatl]

I have obtained and am now growing Lophophora decipiens var. brackii "White Peyote" from Steven Brack at Mesa Gardens!

Thanks for the seeds Mr.Brack! Most expensive seeds I've ever bought!

[Garbage]

I paid in magic beans for mine!

Maybe i should lay off the Amarula.

[Inyan]

Lucky you Teotz. I hope the seeds germinate for you well. I've been most impressed with the L. jourdaniana though myself. Flower size and color can be quite variable with jourdaniana. I'd love to see some hybrids created with good jourdaniana genetics. I don't know how easy it is to find good quality jourdaniana specimens in the states though mind you. Still, you work with what you can get. Teotz, did you manage to get a picture of the mom that gave you those seeds?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Teotz, did you manage to get a picture of the mom that gave you those seeds?

No but I tryed like hell...

No pictures exist of Lophophora brackii "White Peyote"...

And...

Lophophora brackii "White Peyote" only exist in 3 places in the world-

1) In it's only natural habitat just outside Viesca, Mexico.

2) In cultivation by Steven Brack at Mesa Gardens in the Western U.S.A.

3) The seeds I have.

That's it!

As soon as the seedling are old enough to tell anything, I'll take LOTS of pictures!

[Inyan]

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you Teotz. I have access to fast and easy seeds as well as plants over here, but nothing as rare as what you have in your collection now. I'm hoping you have enough seed to risk grafting a few right away, but I've noticed that some suppliers seeds while inexpensive don't always hold the best records for germinating. Another reason I prefer to buy in bulk and from numerous places when I can. L. jourdaniana seeds are still fairly expensive in most places over here, but the cacti themselves are fairly cheap. At least in comparison to the seed and the time it takes for them to grow to flowering size etc. I've seen several different forms of L. jourdaniana which is one of my favorites for blooming characteristics. I'd love to see more people interested in hybridizing just this one species with its varied genetics, but introducing foreign species into the mix is also a plus if your up to it. 3.60 for 10 L. jourdaniana seeds from one source and 10.80 for 20 seeds from another source. You can see that L. jourdaniana seeds are not even offered by some places that prefer to sell the more variable seedlings themselves while the more common types they sell seed and cacti both. I'll submit another website for your perusal that shows a few variations in the local populations. I like diversity myself and think that it is best to have distinct populations of genetics in your collection for setting seed as well as for general esthetics. Yeah, I know there are those that want to keep each local variation distinct and separate. To those people, I say why can't you do both?

http://www.cactusplaza.com/seeds-cactus-se...c-203_1338.html

[Teotzlcoatl]

I have 8 seeds... EIGHT!!!

[Garbage]

Worth their weight in Karats of somekind.

Are they Lophophora or even Cactus seeds?

[Garbage]

Teotz's white peyote.

http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/rutabaga5.jpg