Garbage Posted July 6, 2008 Looks diseased to me,the corky condition of cultivation. Some say red spider mite. Codex Borgia is on the way,i will look for Peyote within. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spunwhirllin Posted July 6, 2008 If you're refering to my pic,they're not diseased.Thats just the manner in which they grow.The seed of the grey's came from knize,maybe they're not lophophora at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted July 6, 2008 does this white form's colour look anything like this skin colour? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 6, 2008 (edited) The way the guy I talked to made it sound is that they are "Ashy White"... So I guess a greyish-white... I've never actually seen Lophophora decipiens var. brackii from Viesca, tho I want to very much... Comment by Mr.Smith, here- It should be of interest though to know that L. decipiens, a plant that that comes from the same immediate region and is pretty much the same as L. fricii with some minor variability from their particular niches, has been shown to have pellotine to mescaline concentrations similar to L. williamsii. Edited July 6, 2008 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spiniflores Posted July 8, 2008 The Fabled White Peyote of The Grand Canyon and Four Corners Area-Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 10,000 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote... Hello The problem is that there are no data or photo of the suposed fossil. and if it exist, it will be the first discovery of a cacti fossilized. or they mean little pieces of a cactus? Anyway the tissue of peyote is very soft... I think that is impossible or very improbable that the tissue of that specie remains for so long. Here is a scanned part of a book of chilean cacti (but the author is from Australia). He works with cacti and made an interesting study with C14 cheers!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
George Posted July 8, 2008 Could it be the aura's they were talkin about. Power plants usually have a whitish/ultra-violet aura. ???? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 8, 2008 I don't think so... I think the plant actually has a white-greyish color, who knows tho, the myths can be read a million different ways.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted July 18, 2008 What kind of argument can be made for the distictiveness of Lophophora brackii / Lophophora decepiens var. brackii as a species and not just a strain??? Does anybody know ANYTHING esle about this cactus? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gunter Posted July 30, 2008 I heard that that pete stuff was made up. Like Casteneda or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted August 10, 2008 (edited) What did Lophophora cacti look like 6000 years ago when they were in use then? What peoples used these cacti at that time? What was ancient Lophophora's range? What are Lophophora's closest relatives? What was did Lophophora's ancestors looks like? Do the many small Mexican cacti have a common ancestor? Edited September 27, 2008 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted September 27, 2008 Can anybody help me with the questions in the above post? What did Lophophora cacti look like 6000 years ago when they were in use then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Micromegas Posted September 28, 2008 (edited) Can anybody help me with the questions in the above post? I thought you were a fan of doing independent research Erowid comes up trumps. Here's an interesting article: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view...;DocPartID=6131 The two peyote samples analyzed are kept in the Witte Museum collection in San Antonio, Texas. They were presumably found in Shumla Cave No. 5 by George Martin in 1933 (Martin, 1937) and identified by him as coming from Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, but the museum documentation is not very specific. A photograph of the specimens has been published by Boyd and Dering (1996, Fig. 12, p. 269), who also accepted this identification. Only the inner parts of the two samples were scraped out with a fine knife so as not to destroy the appearance of the two specimens. These “inner scrapings” had the form of a coarse, brownish-grey powder. The two samples were analyzed individually for alkaloids and radiocarbon dated separately... Standard alkaloid extraction procedures carried out on the samples gave residues that tested positive for alkaloids (orange colour) with the Dragendorff reagent. The alkaloid yield was approximately 2% in both samples... The age of the two specimens of peyote “buttons” that we have now dated is to be found in the calendric time interval 3780–3660 BC. The earlier reported radiocarbon date of 7000 years BP has not been formally published, only as a personal communication in a book review... From a scientific point of view, the now studied “mescal buttons” appears to be the oldest plant drugs which ever yielded a major bioactive compound upon phytochemical analysis. From a cultural perspective, our identification of mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans already recognized and valued the psychotropic properties of the peyote cactus 5700 years ago. There you go then. Nothing about them being white though! Edited September 28, 2008 by Micromegas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted September 28, 2008 (edited) I can't remember how but if you read the full file on that you'll discover some sort of connection... does anybody have it? Yes, I found it!!! Here it is- Prehistoric peyote use: Alkaloid analysis and radiocarbon datingof archaeological specimens of Lophophora from Texas Hesham R. El-Seedi a,b, Peter A.G.M. De Smetc, Olof Beckd, G¨oran Possnert e, Jan G. Bruhn a,∗ a Division of Pharmacognosy, Department of Medicinal Chemistry, Biomedical Centre, Uppsala University, Box 574, SE-751 23 Uppsala, Sweden b Department of Chemistry, Faculty of Science, El-Menoufia University, El-Menoufia, Shebin El-Kom, Egypt c Department of Clinical Pharmacy, University Medical Centre St Radboud, Nijmegen, The Netherlands d Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Karolinska University Hospital, SE-171 76 Stockholm, Sweden e Department of Materials Science, ˚ Angstr¨om Laboratory, Uppsala University, SE-751 21 Uppsala, Sweden Received 15 October 2004; received in revised form 7 March 2005; accepted 27 April 2005 Available online 28 June 2005 Abstract Two archaeological specimens of peyote buttons, i.e. dried tops of the cactus Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, from the collection of theWitte Museum in San Antonio, was subjected to radiocarbon dating and alkaloid analysis. The samples were presumably found in Shumla Cave No. 5 on the Rio Grande, Texas. Radiocarbon dating shows that the calibrated 14C age of the weighted mean of the two individual dated samples corresponds to the calendric time interval 3780–3660 BC (one sigma significance). Alkaloid extraction yielded approximately 2% of alkaloids. Analysis with thin-layer chromatography (TLC) and gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) led to the identification of mescaline in both samples. No other peyote alkaloids could be identified. The two peyote samples appear to be the oldest plant drug ever to yield a major bioactive compound upon chemical analysis. The identification of mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans recognized the psychotropic properties of peyote as long as 5700 years ago. © 2005 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved. Keywords: Lophophora williamsii; Peyote; Mescal buttons; Mescaline 1. Introduction “A chemical compound once formed would persist forever, if no alteration took place in the surrounding conditions.” Thomas Henry Huxley (1825–1895) English Biologist/ Evolutionists. (cited by Asimov and Schulman, 1988). The origins of drug use will probably never be fully understood, but some artefacts have survived, such as archaeological samples of drugs, their containers and related paraphernalia. One of the most fascinating, although very minor, Abbreviations: BC, before Christ; BCE, before Christian era; BP, before present; CE, Christian era ∗ Corresponding author. Tel.: +46 708 97 27 68; fax: +46 8 618 69 32. E-mail address: [email protected] (J.G. Bruhn). approaches for drug research lies in the analysis and interpretation of such remains. Sometimes this field of science has been referred to as archeobotany or archaeoethnobotany (Schultes and von Reis, 1995). The collections of many ethnographical museums comprise paraphernalia for ritual drug taking, and sometimes the drug itself or its vegetal source is also present. In such cases, botanical examination still may reveal the identity of the drug source, especially if it can be backed up by the results of chemical analysis (De Smet, 1995). Archaeological investigations in Northeast Mexico and Trans-Pecos Texas have demonstrated that the knowledge of psychotropic drugs in this region goes back to ca. 8500 BCE (De Smet and Bruhn, 2003). The aboriginal inhabitants of this region may have used both the so called “red” or 0378-8741/$ – see front matter © 2005 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved. doi:10.1016/j.jep.2005.04.022 H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 239 “mescal bean”, from Sophora secundiflora (Ort.) Lagasca ex De Candolle and “mescal buttons”, dried slices of the peyote cactus, Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter (Adovasio and Fry, 1976; Boyd and Dering, 1996). Unlike peyote, the mescal bean has been used extensively for ornamental purposes (Merrill, 1977), so we cannot know for sure that it has been used for psychoactive effects. Previously, from one of the archaeological sites in Coahuila, Mexico, a number of “mescal buttons” were retrieved and Carbon-14 dated to 810–1070 CE. Alkaloid analysis revealed the presence of mescaline and four related tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids, anhalonidine, pellotine, anhalonine and lophophorine. Compared to freshly prepared “mescal buttons” there was a considerably lower alkaloid content (2.25% compared to ca. 8% in a recent sample) (Bruhn et al., 1978). Some years ago, one of the authors (De Smet) came across two peyote “buttons” in the exhibition of the Witte Museum in San Antonio, Texas. Although the museum documentation is not very specific, the most likely origin of these “buttons” is one of the Shumla caves, in the lower Pecos region, or another archaeological rock shelter in Southwestern Texas (Boyd and Dering, 1996; Martin, 1937). Previously, these plant remains have been subjected to Carbon-14 dating and their age has been reported as “7000 years”. However, all the information we have on that dating is from a book review, where this bare date is given as a personal communication to the reviewer (Furst, 1989). With the kind help of the museum curators, two samples for phytochemical analysis and renewed Carbon-14 dating were prepared from the buttons in the collection. We here present the full results of these analyses. A preliminary communication of the results has appeared in The Lancet (Bruhn et al., 2002). In this paper, the methods are described in full detail. 2. Materials and methods 2.1. Plant material The two peyote samples analyzed are kept in the Witte Museum collection in San Antonio, Texas. They were presumably found in Shumla Cave No. 5 by George Martin in 1933 (Martin, 1937) and identified by him as coming from Lophophora williamsii (Lem.) Coulter, but the museum documentation is not very specific. A photograph of the specimens has been published by Boyd and Dering (1996, Fig. 12, p. 269), who also accepted this identification. Only the inner parts of the two samples were scraped out with a fine knife so as not to destroy the appearance of the two specimens. These “inner scrapings” had the form of a coarse, brownish-grey powder. The two samples were analyzed individually for alkaloids and radiocarbon dated separately. 2.2. Alkaloid extraction Two different procedures were employed: (A) The powdered samples (680 and 416 mg, respectively) were extracted at room temperature three times with EtOH (300 ml) for 48 h each time with stirring. The combined ethanol extracts were filtered and evaporated in vacuo to give 61.2 and 31.2 mg of oily residues, respectively. The residues were dissolved in H2O, made alkaline with conc ammonia (pH 9) and extracted twice with CHCl3 and once with CHCl3:EtOH (3:1). The combined extracts were dried over Na2SO4 anhydrous, filtered and evaporated to dryness to yield 13.59 mg (2%) and 8.31 mg (2%), respectively, of total alkaloids. ( To 100 mg of each of the two samples, 3ml of 10% HCl was added in an Ehrlenmeyer flask and the flasks immersed in a boiling water bath for 15 min. The solutions were filtered through Whatman No. 1 filter paper, and the residues were washed with 10 ml distilled H2O. The filtrates were then extracted three times with Et2O (20 ml). The resulting emulsions were centrifuged at 1500 rpm. The ether layers were dried over anhydrous Na2SO4, filtered and evaporated to dryness to give 1.99 mg (2%) and 1.95 mg (2%), respectively, of the alkaloid fraction. The alkaloid extracts were tested with Dragendorff’s reagent using Whatman No. 1 filter paper. 2.3. Thin-layer chromatography Thin-layer chromatography was carried out on silica gel coated plates (20 cm×20 cm, 0.25mm layer) in the system: CHCl3:BuOH:conc NH4OH (50:50:2.5) according to Lundstr¨om and Agurell (1967). After elution, the residue of ammonia was removed by careful drying in a heated oven. The plates were sprayed with ninhydrin reagent (purple colour with mescaline, rf value 0.46) and iodoplatinate— Dragendorff’s reagent (brownish-purple colour with mescaline) (Lum and Lebish, 1974). 2.4. Gas chromatography–mass spectrometry The gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) data were obtained using a Voyager quadropole GC–MS instrument (ThermoFinnigan Inc., CA, USA) operating in the full scan electron impact mode. A 2 l aliquot of the extract was injected by split-less injection into a 30m HP-5 MS capillary column (0.25mm i.d. and 0.25 m film thickness, Agilent Technologies, CA, USA). The injector temperature was 200 ◦C, ion source 230 ◦C, column temperature was held at 100 ◦C for 1 min and increased to 250 ◦C at a rate of 30 ◦C/min. 2.5. Radiocarbon dating A simplified chemical pre treatment was applied to the samples (19.8 and 19.2 mg, respectively) by using 1% HCl 240 H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 below boiling for 6 h. This will mainly eliminate adsorbed CO2 and remove other carbonate fractions of no relevance to the dating. The insoluble fraction was then rinsed in distilled water and dried. Approximately a 60% yield was obtained in this first preparation step. Combustion of the organic fraction was then conducted with CuO at 800 ◦C for ca. 10 min and the CO2 gas graphitized at 750 ◦C with an excess of H2 gas and Fe present as a catalyst. A carbon content of ca. 30% was achieved. A small part of the CO2 gas (ca. 0.1 mg) was used for stable isotope analysis, 13C, in a VG OPTIMA dual inlet mass spectrometer to determine the natural mass fractionation. Radiocarbon was finally measured with the Uppsala new AMS system based on a 5MV NEC pelletronTM tandem accelerator running in pulsed mode. 3. Results 3.1. Radiocarbon dating The results for the two individual peyote samples Ua- 12433 and Ua-12434 are given in Figs. 1 and 2. A calibrated age (computer code OxCal v.3.9) for the weighted mean age (4952±44 BP) of the two dated samples (5030±65 BP(13C=−16.1‰ VPDB), Ua-12433) and 4885±60 BP (13C=−22.3‰ VPDB), Ua-12434) corresponds to the following time intervals: (1, 68.2% probability) 3780–3690 (57.8%) and 3680–3660 (10.4%) calender age BC; (2, 95.4% probability) 3910–3870 (4%) and 3800–3640 (91.4%) calender age BC (Fig. 3). 3.2. Alkaloid analysis Standard alkaloid extraction procedures carried out on the samples gave residues that tested positive for alkaloids (orange colour) with the Dragendorff reagent. The alkaloid yield was approximately 2% in both samples. The extracts Fig. 1. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Sample Ua-12433. Fig. 2. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Sample Ua-12434. were then analyzed by thin-layer chromatography and gas chromatography–mass spectrometry. Mescaline could be identified in both samples, based on identical retention times (GC) (Fig. 4) and rf values (TLC) and mass spectrum as authentic mescaline (Fig. 5). The samples were also checked for the possible presence of the major peyote tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids: lophophorine, anhalonine, pellotine and anhalonidine. There was no trace of these alkaloids in either of the two samples. 4. Discussion “The deliberate seeking of the psychoactive experience is likely to be at least as old as anatomically (and behaviourally) modern humans: one of the characteristics of Homo sapiens sapiens.” Andrew Sherratt (1995). Fig. 3. Graphical presentation of the radiocarbon dating results according to the OxCal v.3.9 computer code. Weighted mean age of the two samples: Ua-12433 and Ua-12434. H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 241 Fig. 4. GC–MS analysis (total ion chromatogram) of peyote alkaloid extract (sample Ua-12433). The detection of mescaline in both of the two investigated samples, both analyzed by two methods based on different principles, is reliable evidence for the presence of this hallucinogenic drug. Recently dried “mescal buttons” can contain up to about 8% of total alkaloids, of which about 30% is mescaline (Bruhn and Holmstedt, 1974). In the present analysis, alkaloid content was approximately 2% and the only peyote alkaloid we could identify was mescaline. There was no trace of any of the tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids usually found in peyote (Kapadia and Fayez, 1973). In a previously studied 1000-year old specimen of peyote the alkaloid content was slightly higher, about 2.25%, and four tetrahydroisoquinoline alkaloids could be identified by GC–MS (Bruhn et al., 1978). The age of the two specimens of peyote “buttons” that we have now dated is to be found in the calendric time interval 3780–3660 BC. The earlier reported radiocarbon date of 7000 years BP has not been formally published, only as a personal communication in a book review (Furst, 1989). Fig. 5. Mass spectrum of mescaline peak in peyote alkaloid extract (sample Ua-12433). Furst gives the following information: “A new radiocarbon date has unexpectedly added six millennia to the cultural history of Lophophora williamsii,- - - the new C-14 assay was obtained by the isotope laboratory at UCLA from one of the two well-preserved plants that had languished, their historical significance unsuspected, for many years in the archaeological collections of the Witte Museum in San Antonio. The two plants were excavated in 1933 with other Desert Culture remains in one of the Rio Grande rock shelters known as the Shumla Caves. I would like to thank Rainer Berger, Director of the Isotope Laboratory in the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics at UCLA, for the C-14 date on the Witte Museum’s peyote sample,- - -” (Furst, 1989). It has not been possible to obtain more information regarding that radiocarbon dating, which has been seriously questioned (Dering, personal communication). Earlier, nicotine and caffeine have been identified in plant remains from a medicineman’s tomb in Bolivia, 1600 years old (Bruhn et al., 1976; Holmstedt and Lindgren, 1972), and morphine has been found in a 3500-year-old ceramic container from Cyprus (Bisset et al., 1996). The preservation of plant remains in archaeological sites varies greatly, depending upon the environmental setting. There are many changes that can take place in plant tissues during drying and/or processing, but under appropriate conditions of preservation alkaloids can obviously persist in plant material for extended periods of time (Raffauf and Morris, 1960). Thus, dry cave deposits in arid areas, such as Texas or Coahuila, are ideal for the recovery of plant materials (Willey, 1995). Dry, non-powdered plant tissues and cells may actually be regarded as containers that can help to protect the enclosed phytochemicals. Interestingly, some South American mummies have been shown to contain cocaine metabolites, indicative of coca chewing. Coca leaves were chewed by many Andean pre- Columbian Indian groups, and the cocaine metabolite benzoylecgonine has been found in the scalp hair of 8 Chilean mummies with dates ranging from 2000 BC to 1500 AD (Cartmell et al., 1991). Baez et al. (2000) also studied hair of Chilean mummies for traces of cocaine, opiates and cannabis, but revealed exclusively negative results in all 19 samples. As discussed by Wischmann et al. (2002), the investigation of archaeological human remains for active substances from drugs requires specific analytical strategies that incorporate also their persistent metabolites. The question how long humans have used psychoactive plants is impossible to answer (Schultes, 1998). In theWestern hemisphere the above-mentioned findings of the seeds of Sophora secundiflora (Ort.) Lag. ex DC., now known as the red bean or mescal bean, seem to be the oldest (Naranjo, 1995). These seeds are found in the same and similar caves as the now analyzed cactus samples, but in much deeper strata and radiocarbon dated to 8440–8120 BC (Adovasio and Fry, 1976). However, there are some doubts as to the actual ingestion of these beans, which also have an important place as ornamental beads (Merrill, 1977). 242 H.R. El-Seedi et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (2005) 238–242 Items of material culture recovered from the Shumla Cave excavations are similar to the paraphernalia used in peyote ceremonies by various Indian groups, and include rasping sticks made from bone or wood, a rattle made from deer scapula, a pouch and reed tubes containing cedar incense, and feather plumes (Martin, 1937; Stewart, 1987). Also, interpretation of the rock art pictographs from the Lower Pecos cultural area adds evidence indicating great antiquity for the use of peyote (Boyd and Dering, 1996). From a scientific point of view, the now studied “mescal buttons” appears to be the oldest plant drugs which ever yielded a major bioactive compound upon phytochemical analysis. From a cultural perspective, our identification of mescaline strengthens the evidence that native North Americans already recognized and valued the psychotropic properties of the peyote cactus 5700 years ago. Acknowledgements The authors would like to express their sincere thanks to Roberta McGregor, Curator, and Elisa Phelps, Director of Collections, who provided samples and documentation of the early peyote “buttons” in the Witte Museum in San Antonio, Texas. Dr. Phil Dering offered helpful comments and insights. Nikolai Stephanson assisted us in the GC–MS analysis. We are very grateful to the Swedish Institute, Stockholm, Sweden, for a post-doctoral scholarship to HRE, and to the International Foundation for Science (F/3334-1) for partial financial support. References Adovasio, J.M., Fry, G.F., 1976. Prehistoric psychotropic drug use in Northeastern Mexico and Trans-Pecos Texas. Economic Botany 30, 94–96. Asimov, I., Schulman, J.A. (Eds.), 1988. Isaac Asimov’s Book of Science and Nature Quotations. Weidenfeld & Nicholson, New York. Baez, H., Castro, M.M., Benavente, M.A., Kintz, P., Cirimele, V., Camargo, C., Thomas, C., 2000. Drugs in prehistory: chemical analysis of ancient human hair. Forensic Science International 108, 173–179. Bisset, N.G., Bruhn, J.G., Zenk, M.H., 1996. The presence of opium in a 3500 year old cypriote base-ring juglet. Egypt and the Levant 6, 203–204. Boyd, C.E., Dering, J.P., 1996. Medicinal and hallucinogenic plants identified in the sediments and pictographs of the Lower Pecos, Texas Archaic. Antiquity 70, 256–275. Bruhn, J.G., De Smet, P.A.G.M., El-Seedi, H.R., Beck, O., 2002. Mescaline use for 5700 years. Lancet 359, 1866. Bruhn, J.G., Holmstedt, B., 1974. Early peyote research—an interdisciplinary study. Economic Botany 28, 353–390. Bruhn, J.G., Holmstedt, B., Lindgren, J.-E., Wass´en, S.H., 1976. The Tobacco from Nino Korin: Identification of Nicotine in a Bolivian Archaeological Collection. Ethnographical Museum of Gothenburg, Annual Report, pp. 45–48. Bruhn, J.G., Lindgren, J.-E., Holmstedt, B., Adovasio, J.M., 1978. Peyote alkaloids: identification in a prehistoric specimen of Lophophora from Coahuila, Mexico. Science 199, 1437–1438. Cartmell, L.W., Aufderheide, A., Weems, C., 1991. Cocaine metabolites in pre-Columbian mummy hair. Journal of the Oklahoma State Medical Association 84, 11–12. De Smet, P.A.G.M., 1995. Considerations in the multidisciplinary approach to the study of ritual hallucinogenic plants. In: Schultes, R.E., von Reis, S. (Eds.), Ethnobotany: Evolution of a Discipline. Dioscorides Press, Portland, Oregon, pp. 369–382. De Smet, P.A.G.M., Bruhn, J.G., 2003. Ceremonial peyote use and its antiquity in the Southern United States. HerbalGram 53, 30– 33. Furst, P. 1989. Book review of Peyote Religion: A History, by Omer C. Stewart. American Ethnologist 16, 386–387. Holmstedt, B., Lindgren, J.-E., 1972. Alkaloid analyses of botanical material more than a 1000 years old. Etnologiska Studier (Gothenburg) 32, 139–144. Kapadia, G.J., Fayez, M.B.E., 1973. The chemistry of peyote alkaloids. Lloydia 36, 9–35. Lum, P.W.L., Lebish, P., 1974. Identification of peyote via major nonphenolic peyote alkaloids. Journal of the Forensic Science Society 14, 6369. Lundstr¨om, J., Agurell, S., 1967. Thin-layer chromatography of the peyote alkaloids. Journal of Chromatography 30, 271–272. Martin, G.C., 1937. Archaeological Exploration of the Shumla Caves. Report of the George C. Martin Expedition. Southwest Texas Archaeological Society, Witte Memorial Museum, San Antonio. Merrill, W.L. 1977. An Investigation of Ethnographic and Archaeological Specimens of Mescal Beans (Sophora secundiflora) in American Museums. Museum of Anthropology, The University of Michigan, Technical Reports, pp. 1–167. Naranjo, P., 1995. Archaeology and psychoactive plants. In: Schultes, R.E., von Reis, S. (Eds.), Ethnobotany: Evolution of a Discipline. Dioscorides Press, Portland, Oregon, pp. 393–399. Raffauf, R., Morris, E.A., 1960. Persistence of alkaloids in plant tissue. Science 131, 1047. Schultes, R.E., 1998. Antiquity of the use of new world hallucinogens. The Heffter Review of Psychedelic Research 1, 1–7. Schultes, R.E., von Reis, S. (Eds.), 1995. Ethnobotany: Evolution of a Discipline. Dioscorides Press, Portland, Oregon. Sherratt, A., 1995. Consuming Habits: Drugs in History and Anthropology. Routledge, London. Stewart, O.C., 1987. Peyote Religion: A History. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, Oklahoma. Willey, G.R., 1995. Archeobotany: scope and significance. In: Schultes, R.E., von Reis, S. (Eds.), Ethnobotany: Evolution of a Discipline. Dioscorides Press, Portland, Oregon, pp. 400–405. Wischmann, H., Hummel, S., Rothschild, M.A., Herrmann, B., 2002. Analysis of nicotine in archaeological skeletons from the early modern age and from the bronze age. Ancient Biomolecules 4, 47–52. (There was some graphs and stuff that I didn't put in) Some years ago, one of the authors (De Smet) came acrosstwo peyote “buttons” in the exhibition of the Witte Museum in San Antonio, Texas. Although the museum documentation is not very specific, the most likely origin of these “buttons” is one of the Shumla caves, in the lower Pecos region, or another archaeological rock shelter in Southwestern Texas The two plants were excavated in 1933 with other DesertCulture remains in one of the Rio Grande rock shelters known as the Shumla Caves. Close to where "White Peyote" supposely once grew. I'd like to know where Wiki got this- The Fabled White Peyote of The Grand Canyon and Four Corners Area-Archaeological discoveries in Arizona and Southern Texas indicate that peyote has been used by the Southwestern Tribes and their ancestors since antiquity. Peyote has been found carbon dated as 10,000 years old in caves in Southern Texas and Arizona. The mummified samples did not resemble modern peyote and were larger and more domed in comparison to modern populations of Lophophora williamsii. These samples also contained up to 6% mescaline by weight even after thousands of years in a desiccated state. Modern Lophophora varieties average 3% mescaline in comparison. The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times[citation needed], called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency. Recent discoveries and botanical evidence indicates modern Lophophora species may in fact be divergent hybrids of Lophophora diffusa and a species recently named Lophophora brackii[citation needed], a high altitude domed "white" peyote with 'Z' patterns and articulated ribbing that originates from a single population confined to a mountain near Viesca, in the northern state of Coahuila, Mexico. Modern Lophophora varieties exhibit pollen structure which ranges from 3 pored pollen from its western ranges up to 9 pored pollen in the Eastern Range where Lophophora decipiens grows under extremely arid conditions, characteristics of a natural hybrid. Lophophora diffusa more closely resembles primitive cacti than the other Lophophora varieties and this species also exists as an isolated population in a mountainous area and is more cold tolerant[citation needed] than Lophophora williamsii populations. Cause it just sounds like a screwed up verison of the above paper. So HOW are Lophophora decipiens var. brackii and "White Peyote" connected? Simply by this Wiki paragraph? W.T.F. was Wiki's source, cause it sounds made-up as HELL!!! The Dine (Navajo) oral traditions and those of other Southwest tribes indicate that a cold tolerant, high altitude variety of peyote existed in the area of the Grand Canyon in ancient times[citation needed], called "white peyote" which was rumored to be of cosmic potency. Can anybody come up with this myth? Got a link? or a copy? Edited September 28, 2008 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ace Posted October 1, 2008 So HOW are Lophophora decipiens var. brackii and "White Peyote" connected? Simply by this Wiki paragraph? W.T.F. was Wiki's source, cause it sounds made-up as HELL!!! I wouldnt trust wiki for 100% accuracy - especially on a topic like this. I'd say it is either made up or a rumour. 'White peyote' and 'cosmic potency' - it sounds like it is complete tripe IMO, but I suppose it could have origins as a fable or something and someone may have uploaded it on that basis. Who knows - I seriously doubt anything will come of this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klaw Posted October 9, 2008 I don't think so... I think the plant actually has a white-greyish color, who knows tho, the myths can be read a million different ways.. sorry folks but this brackii, don't exsist. the fable "white lopho" is nothing more than a L.Fricci , which is common for this plant to produce variegates when crossed with another lopho,mainly L.diffusa decipens usually has the thicker coating of chaulk , but it also grows in more exposed locations in the wild.. hence the chaulk making the plant appear white. Wipe the chaulk away, and you will see grey/green. has anyone ask Steve Brack about this, cause the location is L.fricci , and already has taxo. i have at least 300+ fricci from same plant stock and many different body forms occurr, nothing to give the plant a new name. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted November 25, 2008 From what I can tell there are at least two kinds of Lophophora decipens, possibly more... Lophophora decipiens forma. brackii and Lophophora decipiens... One with raised diamond "Z" shaped turbercled ribs and the other with diffused non-tubercled ribs. Give me some time and ill edit and make a full post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kadakuda Posted November 26, 2008 sorry folks but this brackii, don't exsist. the fable "white lopho" is nothing more than a L.Fricci , which is common for this plant to produce variegates when crossed with another lopho,mainly L.diffusa decipens usually has the thicker coating of chaulk , but it also grows in more exposed locations in the wild.. hence the chaulk making the plant appear white. Wipe the chaulk away, and you will see grey/green. has anyone ask Steve Brack about this, cause the location is L.fricci , and already has taxo. i have at least 300+ fricci from same plant stock and many different body forms occurr, nothing to give the plant a new name. any more info on your fricii/diffusa hybrid? i would love to know about it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted December 21, 2008 I have obtained and am now growing Lophophora decipiens var. brackii "White Peyote" from Steven Brack at Mesa Gardens! Thanks for the seeds Mr.Brack! Most expensive seeds I've ever bought! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garbage Posted December 21, 2008 I paid in magic beans for mine! Maybe i should lay off the Amarula. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inyan Posted December 27, 2008 Lucky you Teotz. I hope the seeds germinate for you well. I've been most impressed with the L. jourdaniana though myself. Flower size and color can be quite variable with jourdaniana. I'd love to see some hybrids created with good jourdaniana genetics. I don't know how easy it is to find good quality jourdaniana specimens in the states though mind you. Still, you work with what you can get. Teotz, did you manage to get a picture of the mom that gave you those seeds? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted December 27, 2008 Teotz, did you manage to get a picture of the mom that gave you those seeds? No but I tryed like hell... No pictures exist of Lophophora brackii "White Peyote"... And... Lophophora brackii "White Peyote" only exist in 3 places in the world- 1) In it's only natural habitat just outside Viesca, Mexico. 2) In cultivation by Steven Brack at Mesa Gardens in the Western U.S.A. 3) The seeds I have. That's it! As soon as the seedling are old enough to tell anything, I'll take LOTS of pictures! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inyan Posted December 27, 2008 I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you Teotz. I have access to fast and easy seeds as well as plants over here, but nothing as rare as what you have in your collection now. I'm hoping you have enough seed to risk grafting a few right away, but I've noticed that some suppliers seeds while inexpensive don't always hold the best records for germinating. Another reason I prefer to buy in bulk and from numerous places when I can. L. jourdaniana seeds are still fairly expensive in most places over here, but the cacti themselves are fairly cheap. At least in comparison to the seed and the time it takes for them to grow to flowering size etc. I've seen several different forms of L. jourdaniana which is one of my favorites for blooming characteristics. I'd love to see more people interested in hybridizing just this one species with its varied genetics, but introducing foreign species into the mix is also a plus if your up to it. 3.60 for 10 L. jourdaniana seeds from one source and 10.80 for 20 seeds from another source. You can see that L. jourdaniana seeds are not even offered by some places that prefer to sell the more variable seedlings themselves while the more common types they sell seed and cacti both. I'll submit another website for your perusal that shows a few variations in the local populations. I like diversity myself and think that it is best to have distinct populations of genetics in your collection for setting seed as well as for general esthetics. Yeah, I know there are those that want to keep each local variation distinct and separate. To those people, I say why can't you do both? http://www.cactusplaza.com/seeds-cactus-se...c-203_1338.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted December 27, 2008 I have 8 seeds... EIGHT!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garbage Posted December 27, 2008 Worth their weight in Karats of somekind. Are they Lophophora or even Cactus seeds? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garbage Posted December 27, 2008 Teotz's white peyote. http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/rutabaga5.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites