UFO's?

[ballzac]

Yeah no one saw any planes. Look, I would have thought planes too but four photos were taken in probably under a minute and only this third one shows the objects. being as far away as they look youd think they woulda shown up in the other pics. I dunno.

Are the photos timestamped? Or is this just an estimate made three months after the fact. Seriously, unless there is a damn good reason to commit to memory the presence - or absence - of planes, no one is going to remember seeing planes. Heck, I probably saw a plane yesterday, but I sure as hell don't remember it.

[Shroomeup]

Alright mate. Settle down. You think theyre planes and fair enough they could well be. Im just saying what I thought happened alright.

[ballzac]

My last post probably sounded a bit agro. I'm sorry if I came off that way. I didn't mean it like that. I still think you should consider my questions. Why believe something without thinking critically about it? It's foolish to just accept the first explanation that comes into your head without asking yourself if there are other (more likely) possibilities.

[Jesus On Peyote]

true, guess ild have to get a good hand on look on em to get a good look at the pictures.

But im also skeptical in the fact that UFOs might not exactly be aliens. might be military planes, uncharted planes, things like that.

which leads me to another unrelated thing, ufo abductions, for all we know that could be cia or something secret like that doing experiments on people,like the nazis did, but under the guise of the "alien" figures.

On the other hand SWIM might have just smoked too much for the day,and should stop.

[ThunderIdeal]

i think what you said JOP is far more likely, at least in the case of most sightings and probably all physical abductions.

[The Dude]

Always thought of Paranormal phenomena especially involving alien abduction to be kind of irreconcilable in our 'normal' reality.. hence the para prefix. They just twist the 'rules' of physics and the whole space/time continuity on their head... from reports I've read... for that reason I'm always a bit skeptical of photo evidence of ufo's or auras or any other paranormal phenomenon. They really need to be experienced first hand for that proper mind-shattering effect anyway. Discussing their physical reality sort of misses the whole point of the very experiences subverting the rules of physical reality.

about this... NFI.

Edited March 30, 2008 by The Dude

[ThunderIdeal]

agreed

[puck]

Always thought of Paranormal phenomena especially involving alien abduction to be kind of irreconcilable in our 'normal' reality.. hence the para prefix. They just twist the 'rules' of physics and the whole space/time continuity on their head

'Rules of physics'?? Hmmm... aren't these just subjective understandings of the 'objective' world, otherwise called 'models' and thus prone to constant revision? It was conclusively proven, some time ago, that a steam train traveling at more than 60kmh or so would asphyxiate all occupants, as all the air would be sucked out.

Not sure about these UFOs - but can we please agree that they are Objects, which appear to be Flying, and are obviously - despite all the hypotheses - Unidentified? If a UFO is identified as an alien spacecraft, it is no longer a UFO. But, technicalities...

This is a topic that interests me greatly. I see no strangeness in the idea of an alien presence on this planet. In fact, i find it almost inconceivable, and laughable, to imagine that there isn't one. And this is before taking Mushrooms, mind.

Let's just pursue a hypothetical. With a few sparse references to flying chariots etc, in the Vedas, the Bible, and mediaeval paintings and so forth, there is not much to go on. But we find that suddenly, in the planet's largest conflict, WWII, there are many reports of balls of light appearing off the wingtips of both Allied and Axis warplanes. Both think it's the other guys.

Then, we explode the first nuclear devices, in the USA and Japan. Within two years, in June 1947, there is a HUGE rush of reports of 'flying discs' in different parts of the world, Australia being one of them. Check out newspaper reports of the time. There is honest curiosity as to w.t.f. these things could be.

Next month, July 1947, a newspaper report comes out that one such flying disc has been recovered. Next day - whoops, mistaken. Now come on: are you gonna tell me that the first witnesses, from the US Army Air Force no less, experienced professionals, are gonna mistake a balloon - spy or weather - for a fucken alien spacecraft? Well, stranger things have happened, but in my books, it takes prejudice to answer that question either way.

(Roswell, btw, I've heard tell, was the only place in the world at the time that had nuclear weapons stored. Haven't verified that one yet.)

And in the 60 years since, there have been MILLIONS of witnesses of UFOs. Millions. I tell you what: if I was a member of a galactic civilisation, and some monkeys with a nasty habit of blowing the shit out of each other happened upon the ability to split the atom AND leave the planet's orbit, I'd wanna keep a close eye on 'em. A very close eye indeed.

It's all a bit of a mystery. All's I can say is - if there is someone watching, contact is inevitable. It will occur, just a matter of when. And I hope it is sooner rather than later. I reckon it'd be pretty cool.

And if you've got some time, check out this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk "U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT U.FO MEETING"

Or www.disclosureproject.org. Interesting stuff.

[ThunderIdeal]

aliens would probably have a policy of non-intervention.

anyway, i like your thoughts, but they don't really rule out the possibility that they are human craft of a technological vein that has been kept secret.

i was very interested to hear that reports went haywire shortly after the nuclear bombs, although, you know, maybe they just found the nuclear engine they needed for their new, round, aeroplanes. ahh what do we know.

i do believe they know about us. humans have existed for, you know, a few moments. an alien species might have been kicking around in spaceships for the last two billions years or even many more. maybe they accidentally killed the dinosaurs before deciding that non-intervention was best

really, our thoughts are so limited. they could be spacegoing robots left behind by an extinct race, or thoughtforms that occasionally condense, or, you know, light-ships from the seventh dimension, or just some illusion that the military use to fuck with people. my imagination isn't great but you see where i'm coming from? for that matter puck, no, i do not agree that they are necessarily Objects i definitely think we can agree that maybe aliens can visit us without propelling a giant tin can from their planet to ours. anybody seen K-paxx?

[Jesus On Peyote]

Wasent the days of ww2 (or late 19th/early 20th century) the time when experimental human testing was banned internationally also? so theoretically, from one view point, it can be argued that if someone wanted to continue their "work" all they would have to do is cover their tracks. i mean the modern ufo sighting roswell was only 2 years after ww2.

well, to correct myself, the first real modern ufo was in Washington usa, on june 24th/1947, followed by another sighting on july 4th/1947 (by which time it big the news papers and coined as flying sauces) and then the kicker, roswell was on july 7th/1947. all in america,in the span of 13 days. then the (modern) legend was born,and accepted as alien. Those who control the news, control the populations thoughts,well most of the populations thoughts anyway.

Now come on: are you gonna tell me that the first witnesses, from the US Army Air Force no less, experienced professionals, are gonna mistake a balloon - spy or weather - for a fucken alien spacecraft?

Lol,not to sound mean, but that is ironic because that would make a perfect "witness".. someone who works for the government..

Not saying there isent aliens out there,infact i do think somewhere out there in infinite space there is something but i doubt their interested in oil,or our food supply, or us for that matter.

and what about all the other emerging planetary races out there,im sure somewhere there are things that have yet to discover fire and others that have just launched their first rocket into space, can they watch us all?

for for all we know, there is an intergalactic war 2 going on between the zorax race and the poop-a-doop race in the far reaches of space.

[Fenris]

Ive seen plenty of UFO pictures in my Fortean Times mags and read plenty of books over the years and those pictures do not strike me as aeroplanes mainly because to get a photo of a plane without any evidence of a tail or wings or lights would need to be taken from the right angle and the planes would need to be at the right height etc, so to see both objects looking almost identical with no clear definable shape other than saucer shape would indicate to me that the photo was not accidentally taken at the right angle in the right circumstances because one object should look more defined as they are 1/2 of the picture appart. The same goes for birds, at the specific point in a wing flap, the wings are not seen as they are obscured by the body of the bird, again I think it is highly unlikely that the 2 objects are birds for the same reason as the planes.

Its certainly not lenticular cloud formations which can look like the spitting image of a UFO.

The new term these days is UAP Unidentified Arial Phenomenon which tries to distance itself from the association with little green men from another planet.

Its a good photo and I have seen a lot of dodgier ones that were said to be genuine but the lack of a frame of reference makes it really difficult to know how close or far the objects are.

The clear sky shot does rule out every day objects obscured by in focus objects up close like a street light globe, tv antena or a hubcap on a fishing rod.

Well done. There may be a rational every day explanation for this one but other than a lens artefact, or an out of focus bug really close up I don't know what that explanation would be.

[The Dude]

i definitely think we can agree that maybe aliens can visit us without propelling a giant tin can from their planet to ours. anybody seen K-paxx?

EXACTLY! :D just like that movie. My concept of aliens is more like the oldschool concept of apparitions or demons or POSSESSIONS... abberations of the subconscious mind. Doesn't negate their objective reality as James Kent would suggest, in that the subconscious is that hidden realm of interconnected mind, that we all share, so their objectivity is verified by the commonality of the experience, just like there is an objective mystical kind of reality that we all take subjective glimpses of... come to think of it, that is ALL reality, some objective whole that will ALWAYS look different to each individual. So we build a common ground, but all that is still a juxtaposition of our understanding onto the infinitely mysterious adventure we call life. We agree on things.. like physical law, so sometimes extraordinary means must be taken to remind us it's still a huge fucking mystery and nothing is ever truly 'known'.

Problem with creating a consensus on these phenomena is they are hard to explain to our conventional understanding of the cosmos.. ACTUAL extra Terrestial (rather than extra dimensional) is probably the EASIEST explenation to understand, but i doubt it's the truth. On truth.. "I don't beleive in anything, but I have my suspicions" (Robert Anton Wilson) I suspect there is much more going on than a simple journey across massive exapanses of space, when bending space/time seems much more convenient, and carries with it a much more profound message re: the flexibility of existence.

Regarding Physical Evidence, sure there may be some, but these are short glimpses of alternate realities( I think.. FIIK), they are never really hard evidence, it's always a temporal fleeting moment. So why get all knotted up in technicalities or semantics about physical law or their 'reality'. Why not delve deeper into what possible message it is communicating.

As 'abductees' will point out, the experience often need not conform to the 'rules' of reality as we usually see them, our models of physical law and causality. From all reports I've read they twist the shit out of time and space with lots of synchronistic weirdness often happening, making the reports seem 'insane' when put against conventional understandings of physical law.

The experiences if taken seriously, open up a pandoras box of wormholes in time and communication that transcends the expected limitations of time/space locality. You are right puck that the 'rules' of reality are not fixed, and that is the very thing that these experiences often elucidate. However they must be experienced first hand for that true holy communion with the 'transcendant other' revelation. Just like trippers stories of enlightenment, alien abduction stories seem so paradoxical (ala the TRUE reality) that they are unacceptable to the collective sanity.. i mean it flips reality on its head, imagine if everyone thought that way... I suppose that with the stifling of plant sacraments by government... this usual connection to ourselves must be 'forced' (by our own interconnected subconscious mind) to happen and even hill billies, stereotypically the most conservative might now think different. I think.. why havn't i been visited yet? oh yeah cuz I already know how,

Point is, physical proof tends to be inconsistent for whatever reason making the person look insane. When perhaps what they glimpsed was a wormhole connecting them to their future selves (proposing this theory making me look insane). No wonder our potential selves always reminds us to not fuck it up! we end up as cold and heartless as they appear to us...

(stereotypical GREY). Anyway.. to me they are glimpses of our potential selves, nothing is fixed and this universe is not predetermined.

Only through foresight can we escape from our own prisons, and these 'aliens' provide us with just that. And a glimpse of the impossible, tempting us to emulate such feats. It's inspiration of previously unthought of, exotic(alien), novel concepts and a good symbol of that is a little green alien.

I think of auras or apparitions of exotic alien thoughtforms as a sight into further realms than those that physical tools could record... except for us consciously creative tools, we often record these observations and it makes for tripped out artwork and movies. However that too is a huge assumption.

I just don't know I'll leave it at that. However without trying to sound too self-important... perhaps the heebs were onto something when discussing that the universe is reflected in the human body and our body in the universe, so using that spiritual logic, we extend that to mean that these alien visitations are more akin to visitations from a part of ourselves.

Edited April 6, 2008 by The Dude

[Undergrounder]

This is slightly off topic but there was a really good show on the Discovery channel i think just an hour ago that to me gave the perfect explantions for a whole range of different alien abduction phenomena. I think it was called 'The Aliens have Landed'. The conclusion that most experiences were mainly brain-based, mainly sleep paralysis related sleep disorders and hallucinations related in the same way. Even examples of abductions while driving were suggested as being from momentary lapses of consciousness on long drives. Blood and Scarring samples found in bed after 'abductions' were possibly explained by violent REM syndrome violence, sleepwalking and the like. Other such sightings involving multiple people were also highly doubtful based on general interrogation and fact-checking of the stories. The similarities betwen abduction stories can also be explained in terms of the evolution of cultural mythology, false memories the way brain states define vague perceptual experience based current beliefs. To me it went a long way to confirming what i've always suspected about UFO abduction phenomena having psychological or otherwise easily explainable explanations.

I have had many similar experiences during Sleep Paralysis and related phenomena and i totally agree 100%. The experiences were 'hyper real' and certainly happened while i still believed i was still 100% awake. Once i was so disturbed that i was paralysed and jellyfish were floating above my head while i was -awake- in bed taht i had ot see a neuroscientist to get it checked out. Many other similar events followed and after the Sleep Paralysis phenomena was explained to me by that neuroscientist i'm now almost totally convinced that most abduction stories are explained in similar ways.

[ThunderIdeal]

i can't comment on abductions. i've seen UAP though (yeah unexplained aerial phenomenon, that's a good term) and let's say that if they were actual objects and not some kind of light reflection/whatever, i hope they were alien because i don't want the US air force possessing that kind of ability.

Once i was so disturbed that i was paralysed and jellyfish were floating above my head while i was -awake- in bed taht i had ot see a neuroscientist to get it checked out.

reminds me of being in bed and finding a pile of earthworms and huntsmen on the floor beside me, getting out of bed and freaking, and not realising it was a dream for about ten minutes.

[Undergrounder]

... reminds me of being in bed and finding a pile of earthworms and huntsmen on the floor beside me, getting out of bed and freaking, and not realising it was a dream for about ten minutes.

No shit, i also had an experience once when i saw the wall beside me covered in redbacks crawling everywhere, i ran out of bed, ran upstairs to get some bug spray, came back down and was searching all over for them before i realised it was a hypnagogic hallucination..

[ThunderIdeal]

yeah it's full-on, i've had it at least ten times, but usually not with a whole writhing pile of bugs.. usually like, one huntsman.

it's because the dreamscape is your actual location, i guess, that you can't differentiate and realise that it was a dream.

[Undergrounder]

it's because the dreamscape is your actual location, i guess, that you can't differentiate and realise that it was a dream.

http://neurology.health-cares.net/hypnagog...llucination.php

http://www.sleepeval.com/hypnagogic_hallucinations.htm

Hypnagogic hallucinations

Hypnagogic hallucinations are vivid perceptual experiences occurring at sleep onset while hypnopompic hallucinations are similar experiences but occurring at awakening. The first systematic description of these phenomena was made in 1846 by the French psychiatrist Baillarger, who called them psycho-sensory hallucinations. The term "hypnagogic", from hypno (sleep) and agogos (induced) was introduced by Maury in 1848, to designate the illusions heralding sleep. The term "hypnopompic", from pompe (act of sending), was first used in 1918 by Myer to describe these phenomena occurring during the transition between sleep and awakening.

The prevalence of hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations in the general population was not known before the Sleep-EVAL study. These perceptual phenomena, however, are frequent in narcolepsy, occurring in between 25 to 30% of narcoleptics (Broughton, 1982). Yoss and Daly (1962) included these hallucinations in the “narcolepsy tetrad” on which they based the clinical diagnostic criteria of narcolepsy. These hallucinations have more recently been reported in disorders of excessive daytime sleepiness, and are often reported by subjects with sleep paralysis at sleep onset (Goode, 1962; Hishikawa, 1976).

Finally, certain psychoactive substances, such as khat (Granek et al., 1988) and hashish (Baillarger, 1846; Moreau de Tours, 1845) have been reported to induce hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations.