Do plants matter?

[ThunderIdeal]

you are a troll dude. in every incarnation you have been nothing short of rude and arrogant. damn kid, you don't even display more than a rudimentary understanding. remember when you were claiming that you could consistently reach a state of jnana, whatever that is, by smoking dmt, making bold claims that you knew what dmt was all about, and then you presumed to handle a massive dose, it kicked your ass and you came in here saying that it was bad stuff. if i lived in a buddhist community i wouldn't particularly want you around either, because you have no humility.

Edited March 14, 2008 by ThunderIdeal

[Guest shroomnoob]

ok dood

[gilligan]

Fuck this has been a funny read....

Vert, love the style dude, left me grinning from ear to ear. You sure know how to paint a picture, don't you?

My personal feeling is yeah, there is "magic" in the plants. Each and every one. It's the same with humans, and anyhting else alive. It's called LIFE. I don't think they really give a rats about humankind, but they do have thier own sense of awareness, albeit on a level that we couldn't understand.

I love my plants, regardless of what they are, my cacti, my fruit trees, my bromeliads, roses, stag/elkhorns or any other of a multitude of things i grow. How could you not? You grow them from young to old. You form an attachment.

To me they are my art, my garden is the place i go when i need to kick around doing nothing, and escape. My soul is in those plants. I can imagine that something i consume from a plant i grew be it a tomato, mango, footlong or button would have some sentience that is attuned to me as i have been the one to nourish it from the time it came to be a part of my life. And that might not be the case, but i guess it's something you grow to believe. And i aint a hippy... wish i was, could live in the forests chaining myself to a tree or something (Grin - no offence to any hippies)

I aint getting involved further than this. I love my plants. Christ, i even love the grasses i grow to throw in the birdcage to get shat on. That's all i wanted to say. lol.

[Guest shroomnoob]

Well, i dont question anyones love for their hobby, but i dont really think it has much to do with molecules shaped like neurotransmitters that alter consciousness.

Gotta love trippers though, their conversations are never fruitful but a good laugh

[Lachy]

Gotta love trippers though, their conversations are never fruitful but a good laugh

You are including yourself as a tripper, given your previous psychedelic experiences - aren't you?

(Nothing malicious intended mate, but you totally set yourself up for that one.)

[puck]

Egad!

Wow, I've stumbled into the Dark Lord's realm here - populated by trolls, trippers, and someone inordinately fascinated by someone else's arsehole. Ha! - and here was I thinking this was a plant discussion. Dunno which aspect of this thread is more interesting.

Ooooookay then. Here's my two cents, and let's see if I can't stretch it somewhat. First on the topic - the "naive view of chemistry" IMHO, is that one factor taken out of context (by which I mean the natural context of multitudinous molecular populations) may explain the whole phenomenon. Yes, it may explain the vast majority - hence the term "active compound" - but there is good reason to suppose that the complexity of an organism versus a single organic chemical compound would have significant subjective psychoactive effects. So here's to Lachy.

(Remembering of course, Lorenz's computer simulation of weather. Simple system, but rounding off inputs to three decimal places instead of six caused massive changes. Hence 'the Butterfly Effect'. Now chemical extracts, in terms of subtlety, are more like trying to catch a butterfly with a sledgehammer. Not saying they're worthless - I'm far too inexperienced to do that - but there are bound to be differences. And that's without talk of plant spirits.)

As for the pseudoscience talk - 'unfounded' is a highly subjective term. My belief in the sacred is well-founded, to me. When it comes to imparting these beliefs to another, well that is absurd. Still, I enjoy doing it just the same. Take it with a grain of salt, a pillar of salt, or just a polite "no thank you", it's all the same to me. To assert that opinions founded on empirical evidence are the only valid ones is highly tenuous. After all (and I know this'll piss some right off), so much as reading a scientific journal is a very subjective experience, for which several leaps of faith are required. If the validity of one's experience is good enough in that instance, why not in matters of faith? I'm sure many good reasons can be given, but at the end of the day, is it an answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything you're after, or an expansion of your own subjective knowledge of this crazy ol' world?

Science, after all, can only make explanations of phenomena. Any negation of a non-physical realm/aspect of existence is a huge leap into metaphysics unjustified by even Occam's Razor.

I talk about the Mushroom as a spirit. I couldn't care less how anyone else takes that - most will just accept it as a linguistic device and move on to the substance of whatever statement is being made. There are so many levels to such discussions that getting hung up on any particular one guarantees that several others are going unexamined. Still, my experience with the Mushroom is nascent, and I am willing to change my ideas as the winds blow.

All said, though, I think that set and setting are of the most fundamental import. Having a healthy respect for the substance and the risk one is taking, is paramount. This may take the form, as it does for me, of ritualising the experience. Even if this is only of subjective effect, it's still healthy. And if it does keep dodgy spirits at bay, so much the better. Sometimes it's good to cover all bases!

Or it may take the form of careful planning, a bucket in case of vomiting, a mobile phone and an absence of sharp knives. Whatever floats your boat, as far as I'm concerned. There are horses for courses, and despite what has been said, I strongly doubt any horse is better than another, jsut suited to different terrains and different tasks.

Which leads me to the fun stuff. God it gets bitchy in here! I'm enjoying, firstly, reading Vert's rants without them being directed at me. Not quite as fun, but still interesting reading. And I do find him eloquent and a genuinely complex character, especially since he was arguing with me, I being at the other end of the metaphysical spectrum. And never a logical contradiction between the two p.o.v's.

I gotta say, though, I am a bit surprised by the uncharitable behaviour shown towards someone stating their beliefs in a forthright, though perhaps uncompromising, manner. But then I am christian... Not that you're my enemy, noob, but heck I do love ya just the same. Still - and this is my turn to be bitchy, Jesus be damned - do get back to us on that 'breakdown of ego' project of yours. There are places to start before psychedelics, but that's only my subjective assertion.

Might I suggest, on all fronts, an appreciation for the substance of the message, rather than the texture? Though it does seem to have died down in here a tad. I kinda thought we were a bit more mature than all this! But then I'm no better, really...

Lastly, I gotta take issue with the statement that trippers' conversations are never fruitful. The best theory on ancient cave art that I've ever heard, that actually goes somewhere towards explaining it, is that it was the shaman painting his trip. The chimeras and therianthropes, the patterns so reminiscent of visual hallucinations, and so many others, all point this way. Thus, the first meaningful representations of the internal world onto the external world go back to the shaman. This is the beginning of the entire human creative endeavour, of which science is a recent manifestation. Howzat for fruitful?

Btw, I hope you're aware that modern science, or the form it has taken from Rene Descartes, was inspired by his visitation by an angel? I love that....

[gerbil]

Well, i dont question anyones love for their hobby, but i dont really think it has much to do with molecules shaped like neurotransmitters that alter consciousness.

Gotta love trippers though, their conversations are never fruitful but a good laugh

The doors wrote a song about you (and no offence to females what so ever! ).

[puck]

You're Lost, Little Girl?

Nah, not sure that's the one. Which is it, gerbil???

[puck]

People Are Strange?

this is pissing me off! gerbil... i'm going thru the entire back-catalogue in my mind to figure this out!

[chilli]

People Are Strange?

this is pissing me off! gerbil... i'm going thru the entire back-catalogue in my mind to figure this out!

Yeah, it's starting to get to me as well, c'mon gerbil out with it already ffs...

[chilli]

Yeah, it's starting to get to me as well, c'mon gerbil out with it already ffs...

Gerbil?!

WTF?!

Is it Ship Of Fools?

I can't sleep, I hope you're fucking happy.

[puck]

Someone PM gerbil, eh? Noob's gone, and I still care about this for some reason.

[gerbil]

LOL nah don't worry

[puck]

You fucker.

Alright, I hereby release all desire to know wtf you were on about...

(Still not impressed, but. )

[Guest Øskorei]

LMAO, I just revisited this thread, and despite shroomnoob/onemind once again being an antagonising little roustabout, I genuinly think he started this off with a credible notion that might have resulted in much banter (of pure synthesis vs impure plant extraction for psy usage). It's a shame he has to be so fucking rude when responding to alternative viewpoints.

AAAAAAnyway, I'm only really posting because this has been dredged up again by folks who are in suspense over the Doors song reference..... it perplexed me also, but I think I might have it (based on the context of which gerbil's post was presented, complete with a quote from the party it was directed at - see post #57). Soooooo, my money's on 'Break on Through'....

Shroomnoob said: Well, i dont question anyones love for their hobby, but i dont really think it has much to do with molecules shaped like neurotransmitters that alter consciousness.

And gerbil perhaps suggested:

You know the day destroys the night,

Night divides the day

Tried to run, tried to hide,

Break on through to the other side,

Break on through to the other side,

Break on through to the other side, yeah.

We chased our pleasures here,

Dug our treasures there,

But can you still recall the time we cried?

Break on through to the other side,

Break on through to the other side.

Yeah!

C'mon, yeah.

Everybody loves my baby,

Everybody loves my baby.

She gets high

She gets high

She gets high

She gets high yeahhhh!

I found an island in your arms,

A country in your eyes,

Arms that chained us, eyes that lied.

Break on through to the other side,

Break on through to the other side,

Break on through, wow, oh yeah!

Made the scene week to week,

Day to day, hour to hour,

The gate is straight, deep and wide,

Break on through to the other side,

[chilli]

I'm not convinced... like much of the subject matter in this forum, whatever is unrevealed, mysterious or unknowable, such as God, gerbil and the Universe in general is open to interpretation. Of course, a sound argument can be persuasive, but in this case...

Oskorei, WTF?! I read your post straight, and then stoned in the hope I would be enabled to detect any possible mystical-sneaky-sideways-mind-sniper meanings, but both times I came up with no explanation for the connection between what Onemind wrote and the lyrics of Break on Through. Am I getting senile?

Perhaps I'm just going crazy, I can't tell if what I can hear that sounds like people screaming at each other is caused by the neighbours, the wind, or is just in my head. I think this room acts like a giant version of putting a glass and your ear to a door.