Do plants matter?

[Guest shroomnoob]

Hello,

Just a quick question to get you guys opinion on the place of plants in psychonautics.

Do you think that particular species of plant have different effects from other plants containing the same active chemical? I mean, if you use peyote or san pedro the active ingredient is mescaline so if dosed the same way they would have the same effect?

Also, we take pure mescalin, lsd, dmt or psilocybin and forget about the plant it came from the only variations in experience in each drug would be determined by the dose, set and self and the plant has nothing to do with it?

Lets say these chemicals never existed in plants but occured naturally in new born puppies tear drops, instead of posters of marijuana leaves we would have posters of puppy faces and very few people would be interested in mycology or botany or whatever and there would be a lot of puppy breeders out there with dreadlocks

Strange question i know but just wondering if you think that say a B+ strain of cubensis is different from say a golden teacher or blue meanie. Or is a cube a cube and all that matters is dosage, set and self?

[Guest shroomnoob]

And please no comments about the place of plants is sustainability, ecosystems or whatever, i am mainly focusing on their place in psychonautics as they obviously do matter to the ecosystem at large.

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't really have a clue. my perspective is spiritual but i go with science much of the time.

a blue meanie or golden teacher might have some different substances compared to a gold top changing the experience a bit. my guess is that some pure, unadulterated psilocybin/psilocin would probably be superior, same goes with mescaline.

[shruman]

Deffinitely!

"I mean, if you use peyote or san pedro the active ingredient is mescaline so if dosed the same way they would have the same effect?"

The main active ingredient is mescaline but there are others & peyote contains some 50 or more others & from memory make up about 1/2 the alkaloid profile san pedro also contains a handful of other alkaloids in small quantity as well so its not just mescaline ur using & this is true for most plants we appreciate.

U can also have different chemical constituents & ratios in the same plant from environmental factors.

"my guess is that some pure, unadulterated psilocybin/psilocin would probably be superior, same goes with mescaline."

Might sound a little hippie/corny but I do'nt think this is true in most cases, the plants have had a long time to perfect their art & they seem to have it down pat & I think it would be neive to think we can just take the bits we like & discard the rest & beat nature at its own game. I mean the plants come up with combos that are often superior to a pure substance.

[Guest shroomnoob]

think it would be neive to think we can just take the bits we like & discard the rest & beat nature at its own game

I think that is a naive view of chemisty.

There is nothing magic in the plant and we could easily isolate the other psychtropics and mix and match as we please.

LSD and DMT made in labs does the job just as well as extracted from nature. A molecule is a molecule. There is nothing man made really because man is part of nature and the molecules he makes are part of nature and i dont think plants have any concious awares or input into the development of these molecules and they are not perfecting any art, merely evolving via natural selection..

[shruman]

"LSD and DMT made in labs does the job just as well as extracted from nature."

Maybe, I'm not quite so sure anymore. I think there is a big difference between using the plants & using the chemicals synthesised from the same plants.

"evolving via natural selection"

Is this not art?, obviously debateable but I think so.

Is it just natural selection, Look at San pedro which has been cultivated for thousands of years. We can & do manipulate nature.

"There is nothing magic in the plant"

Thats ur opinion.

"we could easily isolate the other psychtropics and mix and match as we please."

Yes we could but why when nature has already done it for us?, & once again I'm not so sure its that simple, somethings just do'nt work as good in a pill as the plant they come from.

Grow some plants, trip in the prescence of those plants, consume those plants, than comeback to me. This should certainly change ur view. U can make connections with ur plants that just are'nt there in a bag of DMT.

"LSD and DMT made in labs does the job just as well as extracted from nature."

So which plant can I extract LSD from?, sorry could'nt help myself.

Is the spirit in the plant or the molecule, its been done to death, ur not going to get a deffiinitive answer only opinions.

Edited March 12, 2008 by shruman

[Guest shroomnoob]

Maybe, I'm not quite so sure anymore. I think there is a big difference between using the plants & using the chemicals synthesised from the same plants.

I don't..

Is this not art?, obviously debateable but I think so.

what?

Thats ur opinion.

Are you saying that your opinion is that there is magic in the plant?

Yes we could but why when nature has already done it for us?,

For the same reason we de-fat viridis when seeking dmt. Nature provides the active ingredient along with a bunch of crap, sometimes toxic that we dont need. I would rather consume the active ingredients instead of ingesting fat, toxins and numerous other unidentified molecules.

& once again I'm not so sure its that simple, somethings just do'nt work as good in a pill as the plant they come from.

bs

Grow some plants, trip in the prescence of those plants, consume those plants, than comeback to me. This should certainly change ur view. U can make connections with ur plants that just are'nt there in a bag of DMT.

That doesn't sound schizophrenic at all..

So which plant can I extract LSD from?, sorry could'nt help myself.

So your getting technical on a minor oversight after claiming to believe in magic and talking to plants? Sorry, couldn't help myself..

Is the spirit in the plant or the molecule, its been done to death, ur not going to get a deffiinitive answer only opinions.

What spirit? These substances are psychoactive because they are similar to neurotransmitters that generate false signals in the brain. Nothing to do with magic, spirits or lala land.

Sorry man but i am not interested in discussing this further with you.

To each their own belief..

[Vertmorpheus]

edity bit... thats a bit over the top..."Sorry man but i am not interested in discussing this further with you.". What, you raised an issue for discussion, got all of two or three replies , didnt completely agree with what others stated and now you want to take your toys and go home? Get your hand off it... I don't think you'll have time to tell many people around here that you dont want to talk to em anymore... I reckon a fair few have just gone off you anyway.

Time for me to wave my own stinking arsehole around in here I guess, if we're onto opinions... I do like a good opinionfest...

There is nothing magic in the plant and we could easily isolate the other psychtropics and mix and match as we please.

IF you're personal definition of "a better time" was based entirely on the mg/kg of chemical X... then I guess, you're probably "right".

So... did you start the thread to discuss that at all, or just so you a reason to bring that up? Why are you here, rather than the Hive? Why ask, if you already "know"? You will never learn anything from any teacher if you can't accept you don't have all the answers, and that very few "answers" even if correct NOW, tend to be correct in ALL cases...so thats already got you off to a dodgy footing with plant learning... youre going to have some hard lessons to learn esp if eating the fungus, I'll bet.

What shru is saying is that's a little like saying "a generous blowjob from a loveing partner that understands youve had a shit of a day and need to unwind, AND is for some reason generous enough AGAIN to also throw in all kinds of surprising twists, turns and techniques to just shatter your mind and let you be reborn for a while.... is really no better than a 10 dollar gobjob from a toothless ice skank you met at a servo." Yeah, in both circumstances you can just flap in the fuckin wind and do very little yourself at the time... but one takes basically no relationship, and the other you only get if you're generally a decent, kind understanding and above all caring and observant person that is willing to put in the hard work for the benefit of it in itself, rather than viewing it purely as a soulless transaction of services. because you cared for "her" and was responsive to HER needs WELL in advance of thinking purely about the pick me up at the end of it all.

At no point attempt to "top" or "bonsai" your partner by the way, likewise feeding them on horse poo isnt very nice either... but surely you get what I mean. then again, I'm not sure that you will at all. Which is a bit scary in a way.

Once again, it's all a matter of taste, standards, how much living you want to get out of life rather than Generic Experience X... same drugs, same shops, same shows on tv... its like back in the days of tape decks... youd hear a nice crisp tape and think" ah ok, thats how that actually sounds in its "pure" state..but I like the way mine crackles and the better songs end up going for longer, and it has triple the bass now because its been dubbed that way for the last few generations". Now, everything is on fucking cd and it all sounds the same. It can sound lovely, and the reliability is nice for people that want to control every last detail of their lives... but you don't get to hear songs with the first couple secs chopped off anymore, or with some long gone JJJ host muttering something at the end of one track... lifestyle choice I guess.

Personally, I think the plants are extremely important.. moreso to some of us than others... there are people, people requiring very careful dosage for tricky medical issues etc.. that rely on getting JUST the right amount of an entirely reliable thing... for others of us, we like to find a surprise when we unwrap a birthday card... a scratchie perhaps rather than "happy birthday" just printed in there... the overall message remains much the same, but the emphasis changes, you get a delicious roulette going of good time, bad time, good time bad time... lets just see now... you might just lose on the scratchy. Or you might recieve something to set you up for life.

Now... pan or cube... pans are generally, for whatever reason, reported to be much more on the "time you learnt your lessons, boy" side of the coin than the goldies which tend more towards the "aw cmhere n gimme a big hug you loveably dumb fuck"... you simply cant get the same message from two different messengers, unless theyre both just delivering a standardised message from a third and higher party... whole other area of debate there... but shortish answer... yes... there is a difference. It's not always clear cut, and I know some would find this field much more comfortable to wander around in if things were based on bankable mathematics to the exclusion of all else... but theyre not.

You buy a bag of DMT... fine. Smoke it... woohoo. Now... you don't honestly think that the way YOU would be left feeling about what happened would be entirely 100 percent identical in every way as someone that has always had their eye caught by a certain tree...then one day heard about something interesting... then after much stopping and starting, toing n froing, fucking around and running of risks, getting to know the local weather trends intimately for various reasons, bla bla bla... and THEN, at the end of the mammoth effort on every level... they have it? You see mto be able to string words together and all that, which is lovely... but is there anything going on in your heart at all? I've never made or smoked DMT crystal, never bought it or cooked it... but I can tell you in advance which process would leave me with a longer lasting smile, a graeter sense of sharing and knowing, participating in a creative process rather than just sitting on my arse watching a movie someone else made...

Like asking "is getting a lift to a party with your mum the same as building your own house with friends, and then being able to drive those friends home after a long, lovely evening at your place in a car you worked your arse off to afford and pay thru the nose to keep running". Something for nothing vs something for everything. If that doesnt make any sense, I can't help you understand.

Store bought tomatos vs the ones youve pissed on religiously every week for two months... a fine long matured hand crafted family recipe whiskey vs analytical ethanol... roses vs rose scented air spray in a can... splenda vs sugar...fuck splenda...fuck me, I could go on forever... but yeah, its the same "weight of tomato", if you want to get down to a comic book approach to one of the richest and most wonderfully colourful and textural things of all time... being ALIVE.

But then, there's people that figure a chopper ride to one of the worlds highest peaks to look at the view is good enough... they aren't interested in the climb, or that jerking off to cheap dodgy porn is the same as having an adult relationship with an entertainingly juvenile... somme of us have a "cultural context" and usually at the very "least"... a strong personal context of which the plants are a central part... many get into the plants looking for the drugs but get confused by the glamyr along the way and before they know it, theyre hooked... the demanding but eternally giving green lady has got her hooks into another lil vector waiting to happen and then you end up with posts like this

Thing is, thru all that... the plants somehow are still always willing to start a new relationship with you, despite sounding like a bit of a human doing rather than a human being, She's a gorgeous old soul like that... patient and cheekily smiling to catch your eye and heart just when you least suspect it... you just have to accept that you have some love to give in return for their services, unless you're happy enough to get standardised services without any personalisation or cunning tongue techniques.

Plants are more important than the chemical... they represent potential, eternal potential (as far as we're concerned) if properly managed... but you can only add so much sugar to your powder before it loses its sparkle... and its an immediate and rapidly fading sparkle to start with.

bloody hell... next edity bit... theres "better" in some pure math sense, and theres "better" in an experiential sense... shru is saying he find his approach "better" for him results and lifestyle wise. Who are you to deny the experience of others especially after having essentially asked for them? You asked, in short" is species a and species b from genus c likely to do the same thing, if you eat the same amount by weight".. .answer is no. Different makeup, different growth habits, range, yields, all that... do you even own any plants? Hit some PNG gold then some original skunk and get back to us.. equal weights of bridge and pach... rustica and tabacum... bloody hell, read something before you start shutting people down.

Welcome.. I spose.

VM

Edited March 12, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[shruman]

"Are you saying that your opinion is that there is magic in the plant?"

No, personaly I'm unsure. There are many people who believe this though especialy those who use these plants as a part of their culture.

"For the same reason we de-fat viridis when seeking dmt."

U do'nt have to, just chuck it in a pot with some water & aya.

"Nature provides the active ingredient along with a bunch of crap sometimes toxic that we dont need. I would rather consume the active ingredients instead of ingesting fat, toxins and numerous other unidentified molecules."

I see ur point & extractions do have their place, I'm not an all or nothing person but if I have the choice I would use plants over extracts.

"bs"

Anyone thats had kava will tell u the pills just do'nt cut it. There are herbs that stimulate apetite but when u put them in a pill they do'nt work.

"So your getting technical on a minor oversight after claiming to believe in magic and talking to plants?"

LOL

"What spirit? These substances are psychoactive because they are similar to neurotransmitters that generate false signals in the brain. Nothing to do with magic, spirits or lala land."

Did u read the name of this forum before u posted?.. Spirituality & Philosophy

"To each their own belief.."

That I can agree on.

[Guest shroomnoob]

What, you raised an issue for discussion, got all of two or three replies , didnt completely agree with what others stated and now you want to take your toys and go home? Get your hand off it...

Sorry, he lost me at his explanation of "there is da magik in da plantz dat makez them spiritualz and if u dont belief me go trippin with your plantz and you can seez for yaself".

Didn't read much of the rest of your post, kind of skimmed it but you seem to use a lot of words and say very little. Lost me at the blowjob bit.

U do'nt have to, just chuck it in a pot with some water & aya.

& diarhea & vomiting & the need for MAO

Did u read the name of this forum before u posted?.. Spirituality & Philosophy

Is science and reason excluded from philosophy or are only new age flakes alowed in here?

[Guest shroomnoob]

And for the record, i was correct in a sense that some LSD is partially derived from nature, ergot or morning glory seeds for LSA used as base for LSD. Couldn't help myself..

[Vertmorpheus]

Oooh k then.

You have fun in there!

VM

[nabraxas]

shroomnoob = onemind = troll

[ThunderIdeal]

you might be onto something there nabraxus.

in any event i'm astounded by this character.

thankyou vert, for giving a good explanation of why my preferred viewpoint is probably mistaken.

[Vertmorpheus]

Ah, noones mistaken thunder, you know that... I just think of set and setting as being just as relevant to your inner space as much as the space you find yourself in...and a sausage on a barbie outside always smells better to me than one popping in a microwave, even if I don't eat meat anyway...

As for astounded by this character... I'd be reluctant to assume it has any character at all...

VM

[Guest shroomnoob]

I just think of set and setting as being just as relevant to your inner space as much as the space you find yourself in...

That was my whole point. We dont differ on set or setting, but on substance.

and a sausage on a barbie outside always smells better to me than one popping in a microwave

Thats because the physics is different by each method making an actual physical difference, however we are discussing chemistry so your metaphor is completely irrelevent. A psilocybin molecule has the same structure whether it is synthesised or extracted from a shroom or eaten in a shroom.

You know it, but you just cant admit you are wrong.

[Guest shroomnoob]

And if that makes me a troll, then i am a troll and proud of it

[apothecary]

Actually there are many differences (probably already mentioned but I didn't read it all). Psilocybin molecules in a mushroom may be present in different salt forms and even a small percentage of freebase probably. Synthesised compound is just that, what comes from the plant or mushroom is usually a complex of different substances, all playing minor but important roles in an overall effect.

Synthetic ephedrine is much more unhealthy/draining on your body than the medicinal qualities provided by Ephedra. the L-dopa content of beans such as Vicia faba or Mucuna pruriens is much more bioavailable than the same mg for mg dose of pure L-dopa. I can give more examples if you like?

You'll find that all traditional use of plants that contain toxic (and some of them are HELL toxic) compounds involves the use of a simple or complicated extraction method to render only a portion of the plants phytochem used, ensure it is a standardised dose and of generally consistent potency.

While the concept of smoking a hit of pure d9-THC sounds novel to me, I'd take the entire complex of cannabinoids provided by the plant over the pure any day. Considering how hard it is to synthesise just d9, then I'd hate to wait however long it takes to emulate the entire complex just to get something a plant growing on the side of a hill in Nepal can do in a couple of days...

Edited March 13, 2008 by Sina

[ThunderIdeal]

you could have just posted your opinion. that's all you wanted to do isn't it? the manner in which you responded to shruman after he gave HIS answer to your question is disgusting.

Edited March 13, 2008 by ThunderIdeal

[Avaricial]

Didn't read much of the rest of your post, kind of skimmed it but you seem to use a lot of words and say very little. Lost me at the blowjob bit.

Pity, Vertmorpheus spent time crafting that well thought out reply and thats all you have to say. I thought his explanation was crystal clear, outlining the difference between the journey and the destination.

[Guest shroomnoob]

Pity, Vertmorpheus spent time crafting that well thought out reply and thats all you have to say.

Ok, i'll read it..

Time for me to wave my own stinking arsehole around in here I guess

reported to be much more on the "time you learnt your lessons, boy" side of the coin than the goldies which tend more towards the "aw cmhere n gimme a big hug you loveably dumb fuck"...

unless theyre both just delivering a standardised message from a third and higher party... whole other area of debate there...

Sounds like drugged out gibberish to me..

Store bought tomatos vs the ones youve pissed on religiously every week for two months...

I am hopeless in the garden. Fresh tomatos bought from a farmers market grown by professionals would taste better than my pissed on amateur attempt.

Thing is, thru all that... the plants somehow are still always willing to start a new relationship with you

This is where i find greenies incredibly arrogant. It is completely egotistical to think that plants have evolved the way they did so tha some talking mammal in the future can get high off it. Plants dont give 2 fucks about humanity. Like all life forms, all they care about is survival and parts of plants have evolved in a certain way to be eaten by animals in order to spread their seeds and spores far and wide, not to make monkey boy trip balls.

I've never made or smoked DMT crystal, never bought it or cooked it... but I can tell you in advance which process would leave me with a longer lasting smile,

So you have never done it but know it would leave you with a lasting smile? I have imported momosa hostilis root bark, bought all my shit from bunnings, AB extracted in my kitchen and blew my fucking head off. No smile whatsoever. Its not even a fun drug. I know for a fact if i got clinical grade synthesised dmt injected by rick strassman in a clinical trial it would blow my head off the same way making what you just wrote complete wank..

see mto be able to string words together and all that, which is lovely... but is there anything going on in your heart at all?

There are head people and heart people, and they don;t seem to get along

[shruman]

"This is where i find greenies incredibly arrogant. It is completely egotistical to think that plants have evolved the way they did so tha some talking mammal in the future can get high off it. Plants dont give 2 fucks about humanity. Like all life forms, all they care about is survival and parts of plants have evolved in a certain way to be eaten by animals in order to spread their seeds and spores far and wide, not to make monkey boy trip balls."

Comon man they did not evolve in a vaccum, we evolved right along side them, sure we have'nt been around as long as them but for as long as we have been here they have been right there with us. How do u know we have'nt evolved to make use of these chemicals?

"Plants dont give 2 fucks about humanity."

Some plants do, we are seed dispersal units for some plants. But ur missing the point Humanity does give to fucks about the plants.

Edited March 13, 2008 by shruman

[Guest shroomnoob]

Comon man they did not evolve in a vaccum, we evolved right along side them, sure we have'nt been around as long as them but for as long as we have been here they have been right there with us.

Doesn't mean they like you or want to have a relationship with you or want to be plucked and burned alive in a bong or turned into mushroom smoothies or want you to experience god or enlightenment or even are aware of your existence..

Some plants do, we are seed dispersal units for some plants.

I already acknowledged that function but it doesnt mean they care about us, they are using us

But ur missing the point Humanity does give to fucks about the plants.

That was not the point he was making.

[Avaricial]

Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

But the precursor to any good discussion is that you have to have respect for the other party's opinions, else its nothing more than a statement of your own opinions.

If you feel so strongly about your own opinions, then whats the point of a discussion? or were you looking for like minded individuals coming along and saying "me too!", stroking your own ego in the process?

[Guest shroomnoob]

I have respect for them as people, but some of their opinions are not worthy of respect. Do you not feel it is a waste of time to argue with idiots?

I don;t expect people to agree with me and am still making my mind up about certain things and that is why i asked the question but if someone disagrees then i expect a worthy counter argument and not some half witted drugged out rant about magik and aesthetics.