Ethical question- Slaughtering of injured animals

[platypii]

This is an ethical dilemma I thought I'd share with the kind people of this forum....today whilst driving, I noticed two small sparrows on the road, about a metre from the gutter; one was clearly injured, and his companion seemed to be unwilling to leave his side, even though cars were awfully close to them. Anyway, I stopped, got out and wrapped the injured bird in my head wear (his mate had flown) and removed him from the immediate danger and placed in him in a nearby vacant block, out of the sun and with a small capful of water to sip- he wasn't moving much though, just panting and I knew the end was near.

The "right" thing to do would have been to put the bird out of its misery; but I simply could not do it. I am a vegetarian for many reason, but largely out of love for animals....yet, what I did today, whilst relieving a degree of misery from the bird, did nothing but prolong the suffering. Yet, knowing this, I still couldn't kill it. I have done such before, and felt truly sickened. All I really did was assuage a feeling in myself, the guilt that would have ensued had I done NOTHING- yet nothing is essentially what I do, or worse, prolonged what may have really been a quick death under a cars wheels. But a part of me felt that at least allowing a peaceful, and fear-free death was okay and sound....yet I doubt (obviously)..

What do you guys do if you find a sufferring animal? I have no idea what I would do if I encountered a larger mammal, such as a wounded and dying possum.... But I am for euthanasia in human beings who desire it.

[ThunderIdeal]

if you find a bird on near a road and their legs are curled bag and useless, then they have heavy metal poisoning and euthenasia is probably the best thing. if you take any bird (i think) into a vet with this symptom, they will euthenise it for free.

i'm a vego too partly because of suffering caused to animals but have no strong opinion either way when it comes to personally euthenising a hopeless creature. if i caused it though, like i hit a kangaroo, i would probably feel responsible and therefore more inclined to ease it's suffering.

[Storm crow]

The "right" thing to do would have been to put the bird out of its misery; but I simply could not do it...Yet, knowing this, I still couldn't kill it. I have done such before, and felt truly sickened.

How do you know that is the right thing to do? Is that just what you believe due to what you have been taught or do you feel differently? You say that you feel sickened if you are the cause of death so I would tend to believe that you feel differently.

Death is natural. It is part of the journey we all embark upon at birth, or even beforehand depending upon your belief system. Everything that lives will die. How one lives is far more important than how one dies.

All I really did was assuage a feeling in myself, the guilt that would have ensued had I done NOTHING- yet nothing is essentially what I do, or worse, prolonged what may have really been a quick death under a cars wheels. But a part of me felt that at least allowing a peaceful, and fear-free death was okay and sound....yet I doubt (obviously)..

You didn't do nothing. You did what your instincts told you to do, and that was to put yourself in potential harms way on the road in order to examine the bird and then put it in a safer location.

How would you have killed it? I can assure you that stomping on a creature's head is not a peaceful death. It may be quick in some cases but it is far from peaceful. Handling an injured dying animal can hasten it's death merely by sending it into shock. Shock is a natural defense mechanism

How do you know the bird was scared? Do you mean scared of dying or perhaps scared of the noise of the traffic? Do birds feel fear or do they merely act towards the changes life presents them?

What do you guys do if you find a sufferring animal? I have no idea what I would do if I encountered a larger mammal, such as a wounded and dying possum.... But I am for euthanasia in human beings who desire it.

To what extent humans interfere in the cycle of life and death of another is up to the individual. I would have done as you did, as I still feel it necessary to interfere to counter-balance the actions of my fellow humans.

Here are some examples of how I have reacted to the death of animals:

When I was younger I had 2 pet rats. One became ill and died, and his brother and life companion stopped caring for himself. He became infested with parasites and began to depart from his body. I sat in the aviary where he lived and watched him die. He took at least 15 minutes to die. He spasmed constantly and it looked like a nasty way to go. I sat in the cage and cried for at least half an hour. Why was I crying? Near-death experiences are generally

meant to be pleasant and wonderful, at least for humans. He may have felt pain for 15 minutes but he was at peace when his spirit departed. I could not interfere because it felt wrong to me on an instinctive level.

When I was 25 my cat Lucy was diagosed with terminal brain cancer. I had the option to spend $4000 for chemotherapy to extend her life by perhaps 6 months, at the cost of the quality of her life. I selfishly asked her to hang around till my birthday, and she did even though she was deteriorating rapidly. She got to the stage where she could barely eat, but she would still purr and groom herself(the 3 signs of health for cats) and I felt guilty for not being able to let her go. A week after my 26th birthday I had the vet come round and sent her on her way quickly. The look she gave me just as he injected the poison into her was one of complete betrayal. That certainly may be my opinion, or guilt, but I knew her very well and I recognised that look from times I hadn't been the nicest teenager to her. It was a lesson for me and if I have the choice again I would only put down an animal companion(or human) if they explicitly told me to do so.

Three weeks ago I almost trod on a red-bellied black snake whilst my head was in the clouds. I was a little startled and backed off as I still had an irrational fear of snakes then. I sat perhaps 5 metres from the snake and it made its way towards me, crossing a road behind Wentworth Falls train station. A car was leaving the carpark, and I continued to watch the snake slither towards me. The car was in the left lane and the snake was in the right. The car should have been able to easily miss the snake. It didn't. Instead the driver swerved at the last moment and ran over the snake, splitting open its belly with a mortal wound. I was watching the snake and thus did not see the driver's eyes and could not ascertain their intent. The snake was thrashing wildly and was obviously in a lot of pain.

I was rather upset at first and I felt it was my responsibility, that I could have interfered if I had acted and saved the snake's life. Instead of thinking, I felt instead. I started to hiss at the snake, a low long hissing sound as I breathed deeply. It was a very meditative state and the snake responded to it. By this stage I was practically sitting atop the snake, and as I hissed it stopped thrashing about. It curled up as snakes do and watched me whilstI spoke to it. I was hissing for about 10 minutes, coaxing the snake to relax and leave its body behind. When it died, I went back into thinking mode again, felt guilty and tears welled in my eyes. I breathed deeply again and I felt nothing but peace.

Grief and loss have been difficult concepts for me to deal with in life until this turning point. I finally accepted death as a natural part of the cycle of life.

[PD.]

removed him from the immediate danger and placed in him in a nearby vacant block, out of the sun and with a small capful of water to sip- he wasn't moving much though, just panting and I knew the end was near.

The end may not have been as near as you think. Birds clipped by cars at or hit at slow speeds are often just shocked and come good again after 10 or so minutes. Just like birds that fly into windows.

I hit a Tawny frogmouth once at 100kph, not full on but he clipped the side of the car with a big puff of feathers. I thought he would have been killed instantly and i had to go back and make sure he wasnt suffering. He was sitting in the middle of the road (AGAIN) panting and staring at me with those beady yellow eyes, i moved in close and picked him up, then sat him on the backseat of the car, he didnt make a sound or move. I drove to a mates house and told him to have a look in the car, he opened the door and out flew the Tawny , scaring the shit out of my mate but the main thing was the bird was fine.

If anyone here lives in the same area as Tawny frogmouths then you wil know how docile they are, but as i have found they are very tough, so tough they arent even scared of cars . So if you do happen to hit one with your car just be sure to check it is ok.

Also if you are a vermin hater, Tawnys look VERY similar to a rabbit sitting on the road so just be sure before you put your foot to the floor.

[Big George]

I believe that humans have been given the ability to make the decision on whether another creature should live or die.

Some people do not use this sense very well, such as kids who choose to torture small animals, whale hunting, sport hunting, etc...

While most of us are capable of making the call on whether an animal will recover at all, recover slowly with less quality of life, or whether recovery is not possible.

I know this isn't the place for bible bashing, but in Genesis it says that we have command over all the animals.

Since we are sentient beings then we can make the decision sensibly with no guilt.

While it's true that birds generally are more often stunned by impacts, than injured beyond recovery... I also believe that animals know when they are sick, dying, whatever, and will sometimes try and kill themselves to end their suffering.

No matter what you did, you were there and you made the right choice in my opinion.

[platypii]

Thanks for the replies. Interestingly, upon returning to where I left said bird, there was no evidence except for the bottle cap which I retrieved. There were no scatter feathers or signs that the birds shelter had been "invaded" so I hope to think he lives to fly another day- or perhaps in dying he made a meal for some other creature so it can live to its fullest. A conundrum. I guess, either way, the cycle perpetuates.

I was raised a Catholic, so I guess death has that deep, dark undertone to it for me , something that spiritual "near-death" experiences have taught me to defy and understand as logically unneeded, but in the face of the chasm of Life and Death itself I felt and always feel shaken. The only way I could have slaughtered the poor cretaure would have been a stomp, and I will not end life violently, no matter the motive.

I was rather upset at first and I felt it was my responsibility, that I could have interfered if I had acted and saved the snake's life. Instead of thinking, I felt instead. I started to hiss at the snake, a low long hissing sound as I breathed deeply. It was a very meditative state and the snake responded to it. By this stage I was practically sitting atop the snake, and as I hissed it stopped thrashing about. It curled up as snakes do and watched me whilstI spoke to it. I was hissing for about 10 minutes, coaxing the snake to relax and leave its body behind. When it died, I went back into thinking mode again, felt guilty and tears welled in my eyes. I breathed deeply again and I felt nothing but peace.

Thats a very touching story, and I canrelate- with the bird of my adventure, the instinct to make a high pitched white-noise like whistling resonant sound came to mind- well, it actually just came out. I couldn't perceive an effect; but I defintely felt a connection, and heightened empathy. I like to believe, as your story illustarets, that the human animal and the 'true' animal are so interetwined that seperation is by matters of degree if that. Whatever occurred with that bird, I suspect and hope my concern and the basic love I felt for the feathered life-form was conveyed to the animal.

Thanks so much for the replies; its funny how what some people would call trivial- the life and death of a bird- can actually contin almost a universe in a soft and ancient flying body. Peace

[chilli]

Deleted because I can't be bothered.

Edited October 23, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[nabraxas]

Deleted because I can't be bothered.

That's a shame. I only looked because i saw you'd posted something. Seeing as you're a vego, i thought it would be interesting; but while i'm here i may as well chip in my 2 cents worth.

Causing the needless death or suffering ov any sentient being seems wrong to me, but ending the suffering ov such a being seems right to me. Prolonging the suffering of an animal or human so that they die ov natural causes seems cruel.

I'm all for euthanasia.

[XipeTotec]

then they have heavy metal poisoning and euthenasia is probably the best thing.

dont u get this from "manowar"?

[incognito]

a 'manowar'? are u talkin jellyfish?

[incognito]

i dunnobut if an animal is in excrutiating pain and has no chance to survive i think it would be inhuman notto kill it quickly.

It is horrible though, but better than a being in pain being devoured slowly by insects u get the picture. anything suffering unnecissarily (well not even unneceissarily just suffering) is horrible.

[XipeTotec]

a 'manowar'? are u talkin jellyfish?

the heavy metal band from the 80's (but still pumping shit out today)

[incognito]

are they tasmanian?

[XipeTotec]

are they tasmanian?

no

[Lono]

and as I hissed it stopped thrashing about. It curled up as snakes do and watched me whilstI spoke to it.

Hate to break it too ya bud, but Red Bellies eat other snakes. hissing at probably had it thinking you wanted to eat it. So with massive internal injuries and in extreme pain the poor bugger had to try and play possum while you were allaying your feelings of guilt by convincing yourself that you could forge some made-up spiritual bond with it.

Platypii,

IMO with an animal in pain, where there is little chance it will make it to a vet, you just gotta hold your balls and do the deed. Every second you consider the situation in human terms is another second of agony for the animal.

Decisive action is really the only solution. Whether you decide to walk away and leave the sick sparrow to the meat ants or put it out of its misery. Standing around wringing your hands will not please the great spirit...

[ThunderIdeal]

i'd like to introduce a new facet to the conversation.

when you experience physical trauma, chemicals and stuff are released into your blood. i don't know which situations have this result, but certain injuries which look horribly painful actually aren't painful at all for the first half hour, because you are in shock, pumped full of adrenalin, whatever. the point is that damage doesn't always mean pain and in fact, pain doesn't always mean suffering.

i don't remember any popular scriptures putting euthenasia in a positive light.

i would probably kill the wounded critter, but they may not be in agony at all, and you may be robbing them of an important part of their (spiritual?) experience. don't buddhists believe that your karma is mainly decided in the moments of death?

xipotec, i can't think of a smartass response. let's just agree that metal is great, and that the word 'manowar' is never to be uttered again.

[chilli]

Hate to break it too ya bud, but Red Bellies eat other snakes. hissing at probably had it thinking you wanted to eat it. So with massive internal injuries and in extreme pain the poor bugger had to try and play possum while you were allaying your feelings of guilt by convincing yourself that you could forge some made-up spiritual bond with it.

*chuckles* I didn't want to be the one to say it, but ... yeah.

So anyway, good intentions though, I reckon. As far as the second part about if you can't get to a vet etc; sometimes animals who are in pain, or appear to us to be beyond recovery will in fact recover quite nicely, often even without veterinary attention, so maybe don't go stomping the life out of every animal you see that looks like it's in pain. I know that's not exactly what was meant, but just pointing out that birds especially are surprisingly tough, so maybe just be really sure you know what's up before making a rash decision.

I tend to believe pointless suffering should be reduced as much as possible... humans can decide whether they want to suffer the agonies of death or not (even though they may not be legally allowed to choose not to), but I don't see how a terminally ill animal that is in pain could benefit from it, and I think it is callous for humans to decide that they are and so let them die 'naturally.'

That thing about the mites on the rat really pisses me off, because lice and mites can be prevented and controlled by the rat's owner... still, maybe you were a kid, if so not your fault. I also have that instinctual feeling not to interfere, but that doesn't mean it is right or the best thing... sometimes I have an instinctual feeling to punch people in the face. The experience of death is generally not pleasant or wonderful for humans or any other animal, unless they are totally dosed on morphine. It is usually a frightening and horrible experience, no matter what Deepak Chopra tells you.

I would like to avoid killing other creatures, but I would never be able to get any gardening done if I did. I do feel sorry for the poor ants, worms and centipedes though.

As far as being a vegetarian and commenting on killing animals, I think it's a bit of a rabbit trail, but most of what I say is. I don't object to other people killing animals for food, if it is necessary and done as humanely and respectfully as possible, but I don't really see any situation in our society where it is necessary to do so. Meat in our culture is usually seen as just another product to be consumed, rather than the sacrifice of an animal for our benefit... I originally intended to not eat meat until I'd killed an animal myself, but gradually realized I was quite happy and healthy without meat, so I won't unless I live in a culture where it is the only source of vital nutrition. It can hardly be completely wrong to kill animals, as humans sometimes need to in order to live, but as I live in such a materially abundant culture where I can eat excellent, healthy and nutritious food without the death of an animal being involved, I won't just go around killing things because I like how they taste.

[occidentalis]

I hit a Tawny frogmouth once at 100kph, not full on but he clipped the side of the car with a big puff of feathers. I thought he would have been killed instantly and i had to go back and make sure he wasnt suffering. He was sitting in the middle of the road (AGAIN) panting and staring at me with those beady yellow eyes, i moved in close and picked him up, then sat him on the backseat of the car, he didnt make a sound or move. I drove to a mates house and told him to have a look in the car, he opened the door and out flew the Tawny , scaring the shit out of my mate but the main thing was the bird was fine.

If anyone here lives in the same area as Tawny frogmouths then you wil know how docile they are, but as i have found they are very tough, so tough they arent even scared of cars . So if you do happen to hit one with your car just be sure to check it is ok.

Great story Passive. I'm glad to hear it.

Last year I hit a tawny frogmouth towards the end of a long and tiring drive

it was sitting in the middle of the road and just looked like a bunch of leaves - I realised what it was and swerved around it but it flew straight up into windscreen. I got out and looked around for a while but couldn't find it and assumed it was dead... I really like those birds, it was fairly traumatic emotionally - but after your story I have some hope.

[Storm crow]

Hate to break it too ya bud, but Red Bellies eat other snakes. hissing at probably had it thinking you wanted to eat it. So with massive internal injuries and in extreme pain the poor bugger had to try and play possum while you were allaying your feelings of guilt by convincing yourself that you could forge some made-up spiritual bond with it.

I guess only the snake will know Next time I'm wandering the cosmos and happen to bump into her, I'll ask her what she thought about my hissing

[paradox]

Great story Passive. I'm glad to hear it.

Last year I hit a tawny frogmouth towards the end of a long and tiring drive

it was sitting in the middle of the road and just looked like a bunch of leaves - I realised what it was and swerved around it but it flew straight up into windscreen. I got out and looked around for a while but couldn't find it and assumed it was dead... I really like those birds, it was fairly traumatic emotionally - but after your story I have some hope.

i few years ago i was in my friends car driving to a party & we hit a tawny frogmouth.

we got out of the car & were searching around for it for ages. we figured it would have been pretty badly hurt. we searched for about 15 minutes & couldn't find it anywhere until finally i decided to look under the car & it was under there hanging on to the front axle with it's feet, dangling upside down like a bat!! it wasn't jamed there or anything it was actually gripping it with it's claws, hanging upside down!

so i pulled him out & checked him over, it was obviously in shock but didn't seem to be too badly injured. anyway we took it to a lady who lived nearby who is a member of wires & gave it to her & she told us it flew away the next day & was fine.

[ThunderIdeal]

Lono, and brain for agreeing:

what you said was almost fair comment.

there was no need to patronise.

ultimately, you don't really know shit. you don't know that tarnicus was mistaken, it's just a hunch you have. you could have said what you said without implying that you are right and somebody else is wrong.

brain, thanks for replying to my point. "The experience of death is generally not pleasant or wonderful for humans or any other animal, unless they are totally dosed on morphine." that would be my assumption too, but i wonder is that the medical opinion? i know that drowning would be unpleasant, at least for a time, i also know that by the time you die of drowning your brain is also drowning (in trippy chemicals). can anybody comment on this conclusively?

[chilli]

Lono, and brain for agreeing:

what you said was almost fair comment.

there was no need to patronise.

ultimately, you don't really know shit. you don't know that tarnicus was mistaken, it's just a hunch you have. you could have said what you said without implying that you are right and somebody else is wrong.

brain, thanks for replying to my point. "The experience of death is generally not pleasant or wonderful for humans or any other animal, unless they are totally dosed on morphine." that would be my assumption too, but i wonder is that the medical opinion? i know that drowning would be unpleasant, at least for a time, i also know that by the time you die of drowning your brain is also drowning (in trippy chemicals). can anybody comment on this conclusively?

Well my own experience of witnessing people dying is fairly limited... in fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually die. My wife is a doctor, and when she worked in the hospitals shes sure saw a lot of people die, and I was talking to a friend who is an oncologist a couple nights ago, and she was telling me about some of the horrible deaths she has nursed people through... I think most people understand death to be horrible because it actually is. When I was a kid I just thought most people died quietly in their sleep, but this is not usually the case and when it is I would imagine that most people start awake for a minute anyway. There are exceptions, but death is usually painful and horrible. Sure, I guess no one can tell what the very last moment is actually like until they experience it, but the minutes/hours/days leading up to the point are clearly very uncomfortable if not terrible in most cases.

As far as my comment regarding Tarnicus, I am free to think and express I am right and someone else is wrong, as you are... actually, isn't that what you are doing to me and Lono? I feel fairly confident that Tarnicus did not communicate with a dying wild snake by hissing at it, not based on a hunch but on my knowledge of animals.

Maybe I shouldn't have laughed, but I thought the way Lono put it was pretty funny and maybe I was a bit pissed about the rat getting eaten alive by parasites. I wasn't trying to be particularly nasty, and I didn't get the impression Lono was either.

[platypii]

. There are exceptions, but death is usually painful and horrible.

In my experiences with human death, which is relatively limited, I've seen 9/10 more peaceful quiet deaths then not. Of course people in a hospital are going to be dying in grimmer ways; they are sick. The person who has the brain embolism whilst on the toilet wouldn't suffer.

[chilli]

In my experiences with human death, which is relatively limited, I've seen 9/10 more peaceful quiet deaths then not. Of course people in a hospital are going to be dying in grimmer ways; they are sick. The person who has the brain embolism whilst on the toilet wouldn't suffer.

I think you may have misunderstood me, I don't mean death is necessarily always long and drawn out, just painful and horrible... I suppose a stroke may be one exception to the physical pain aspect, but it still strikes me as horrible (and emotionally painful!).

Then again, most people do not die from a sudden stroke, and I am intrigued by your comments that your experience of human death has been peaceful and quiet 9 times out of 10 (not in a sarcastic way). Assuming you have witnessed at least 10 deaths, what was the method of the 9 peaceful deaths? I am seriously interested and not trying to be rude or imply anything... I just need to make that qualification sometimes on this forum.

[ThunderIdeal]

As far as my comment regarding Tarnicus, I am free to think and express I am right and someone else is wrong, as you are... actually, isn't that what you are doing to me and Lono? I feel fairly confident that Tarnicus did not communicate with a dying wild snake by hissing at it, not based on a hunch but on my knowledge of animals.

haha

i just found it to be patronising like if i said "look brain, your views are stupid and clearly wrong".

here are the main culprits:

"Hate to break it too ya bud"

"made-up spiritual bond"

implying that one persons view of reality is correct and the other persons view is incorrect. we all engage in this sort of thing sometimes but it's needless, because:

A. we're probably all wrong, or at least, none of us know for sure that we're right

and B. it's offensive, which is a factor for some.

and hey, i didn't patronise you guys, did i? the closest i came was "ultimately, you don't really know shit", which is a statement i would make about any human being including myself.

well, i was about to incorporate your wife's testimony into my way of thinking, but it turns out that somebody else has the opposite testimony. SCREW YOU THUNDER, no closure for you.