Sydney Golden Wattle (warning)

[thatpersonthatiam]

While bushwalking in an attempt to find a number of plants I came across what i thought was the acacia maidenii tree. I took some photographs and showed them to the Sydney Wildflower Nursery, in heathcote. They told me that it was the Sydney Golden Wattle (acacia longifolia, i think).

I remembered reading that this tree also contained tryptamines so I read about some more. It turned out that the bark did contain some tryptamines, but the leaves of the plant had been used by aborigines for fish poison, due to their cyanide content. The fact that this plant had such a poison in it at all put me off seeing whether I could grow it at home.

A lot of ethnobotanical suppliers that I have seen promote this plant as one with a tryptamine content. They don't say where the tryptamines are in the plant and some people would assume it was in the leaves as well. This could proberly lead to poisonings if people were to try the plant.

So this is just a warning to those of you who are thinking about trying this plant...

[Torsten]

There are tryptamines in he leaves of Acacia longifolia as well as in the bark. Acacia maidenii has the tryptamines mostly in the bark. As these species are closely related one should expect cyanide in all of them. A normal 2 phase extraction will eliminate these as cyainde will always be in the opposite phase. In most cases the extraction starts in an acetic acid solution and this would remove any cyanide. If in doubt just boil the acidic solution at any stage for just a little while and all the cyanide will be liberated.

There has been previous discussion on cyanide dangers and the ease of removal in these forums. Following a standard alkaloid extraction almost guarantees full removal. This is not the case for solvent extracts.

[Guest wira]

Histamine derivatives, and phenethylamine, have been found in A. longifolia as well, in largeish quantities. It's also unknown just how much chemical variation there may be. Botanically, it is also very variable, intergrading with A. sophorae [now known as A. longifolia ssp. sophorae], which seems to have similar [and similarly complex] chemistry.

Just brewing up one of these plants and drinking it with an MAOI might not be a good idea; the usual acid/base extraction is probably the best way to approach the alkaloids of these plants, presuming they were to be vapourised.

[theobromos]

And rember not to smell the steam coming off the boiling solution!

[Adrian]

Don't want to lessen the warning at all however, extractions aside,

it dosen't take much to stun (even kill) fish in a small pond

[eccles]

Torsten - how/where have you discovered the presence of tryptamines in the leaves and bark of Acacia longifolia? and do you know which tryptamines are in it?

I just looked in "Trout's Notes - Tryptamines From Higher Plants" (1998), and found this entry, under the 'reported occurences of N,N-Dimethytryptamine':

'Acacia Longifolia

May be *in error?* [bold print]

This probably arose from the unfortunate combining of every chemical analysis for all varieties of this species as if they were one and the same (from a tabular summary in a now dated overview of herbage biochemistry).

DMT or another substitued tryptamine may indeed eventually be found in the flowers and/or tips but we can locate no conclusive analysis, only White's intriguing lab observations concerning an unidentified alkaloid(s) that was not tryptamine but reacted intensely with Ehrlich's reagent.'

So does anyone know of any sources that specifically demonstrate the presence of tryptamines (esp DMT) in this particular species? or has anyone had any experience themselves with this?

[eccles]

oh! I just found this in the 'Addendum & Errata' for the book:

'Acacia longifolia

On the subject of DMT reports from this species: Daniel Siebert reported detected trace amounts of DMT in a California roadside population but never published this material.'

Does anyone know any any other info? preferably more specific.

[shroomy]

Originally posted by wira:

Histamine derivatives, and phenethylamine, have been found in A. longifolia as well, in largeish quantities. .

Please exuse my ignorance of all things chemical wira but what exactly are the properties of phenethylamine im just curious because it is one of the many chems that will cross react with the drug test cups at work. and is mescaline a phenethylamine

[Guest wira]

I think the Siebert stuff should have referred to A. longifolia ssp. sophorae [or A. sophorae, which is the same thing].

Apart from that there's nothing really in the literature. However about 5 years ago a friend [who I'm no longer in contact with] extracted alkaloids from A. longifolia bark, from plants growing in Eltham, Victoria. These alkaloids were smoked by 6 people one day and as far as they were concerned it was DMT . More likely, it seems to me, it was probably a mixture of alkaloids including DMT, but anyway, there you go... Of course, what they did is illegal, and I'm sure that realising that, they would be most remorseful and never think of doing it again

I don't know of anyone else who has worked with this plant in such a way, but it deserves investigation, and much more detailed analyses of plant specimens.

Yes, mescaline is a phenethylamine. I'm no chem wiz myself, but I can at least say that phenethylamine is generally considered to be more or less inactive taken orally, except with an MAO inhibitor [preferably more on the MAO-B side of things]. It has a short half-life in the body [1-5 minutes] and a high turnover rate, and is degraded by either MAO-B [to phenylacetaldehyde, a sedative] or by dopamine-beta-hydroxylase [to phenylethanolamine, a weak stimulant]; it occurs naturally in the human body, and may be biosynthesised from tyrosine, phenylalanine, or tyramine. Injected in large doses into animals, it was also active, described as similar to amphetamine from whatever the monekys told them, I guess It is also apparently a skin irritant.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by eccles:

Torsten - how/where have you discovered the presence of tryptamines in the leaves and bark of Acacia longifolia? and do you know which tryptamines are in it?

I read a reference on this quite a while ago (can't remember where), but since then I have heard of at least two people who got useful alkaloids from the leaves.

[shroomy]

Thanks Wira that about covers it . some of the break down chems also appear on the cross reaction

[*] phenylethanolamine

[*]tyramine

[*][phenylalanine] [/list=a]I guess they have mescaline covered than but i asume from the short half life it would be near impossible to detect 24 hours later. funny and also very fatuidos for me that tryptamines dont get a mention. thanks again.

[This message has been edited by shroomy (edited 27 January 2002).]

[Robert]

I have quite a few healthy trees of: Acacia maidenii growing and they have stayed outdoors all year long and have handled the cold with no problems. I'm curious about how this plant is used and if anyone has any experience with it?

[mesq]

I would guess that Mescaline could be picked up well after 24 hours.

[Torsten]

maidenii are quitee hardy and good for people in cooler climates.

the goodies are in the bark. only really useful if you do an extraction with A/B clean up.

The leaves of some strains/individuals also contain goodly amounts of tryptamines. leaves would be easier to extract. extraction of the leaves is essential due to the cyanide content.

[waterdragon]

i'm sure i was reading something recently about cyanides benefits in attacking cancers, perhaps the prussic found in apricot kernels was its source.

[planthelper]

even apple pits,

just a few,

its a dosage matter id say.

almonds, apricot, prunes...

my dad allways ate the whole apple!

[mescalito]

Is the cyanide bound up in another chemical or free,as I read about vitamin B17 once in some silly mag, and how it releases it's cyanide package on cancer cells.Apparently it's contained in high quantities in red clover,amongst other botanicals including peach kernels and apple pips,and is used as an anti-cancer agent.

[ 01. January 2004, 20:15: Message edited by: mescalito ]

[Rev]

I once read a story about a guy in the Hunza valley (Pakistan) following the locals who apparently live to ripe old ages quite often

The rule of thumb given by the locals was that you only eat as many pips as you eat apricots - so Planthelpers dad got it right

A WHOLE apple is great fora sore stomach - traces of cyanide do wonders

Then again we are talking about fresh Hunza apricots from within the centre of diversity for the species ,many many varieties totally unlike ours which are all descended from one collection - for example not all kernels are bitter and not all apricots are 'apricot' colour in skin or flesh. There are apricots with pits like almonds that can be eaten sweet

(can you tell i like apricots ?)

A Byron local of some standing in this field told me a brew of maidenii leaves works well and that it doesnt have the cyanide issues of obtusifolia leaves which cant be used without A/B ) . I hope they contribute further.

[JumpedAngel]

I only discovered this website today and was pleasantly surprised that there is such an interest in local ethnobotanics.

I became interested in the acacia species many years ago when I was mainly interested in the steam bending of local timbers.

At that time I became aware of the toxicity of a desert acacia called Gidgee the saw dust of which causes dermatitis.

More recently I have been building a webpage specifically dealing with bush survival techniques here in the south east of the continent, and as such I have focused some attention on what I believe to be the ultimate bush survival food in Australia that being acaia tears.

More recently still, I have become aware of the DMT content of certain alpine acacias and have done much soul searching and many trials to assure myself that I was not encouraging people to poison themselves by eating acacia tears.

The original fish poison as used by the Australian Aborigines was neither of the alpine species mentioned above but instead Lightwood (A. implexa) and while the inner bark of the tree causes fish to be stupified and float to the surface, the fresh sap or unhardened tears where used to dress open wounds as you might use unpasturised honey today.

This does not necessarily mean that the bark is poisonous, as I know that many toxins which affect humans do not affect birds and animals and vice versa.

At the same time I know that I can use lime instead of lightwood along the seashore, this is made by baking coral and sea shells, and it too has the same affect on the fish in a rock pool or billabong, in this case the lime sucks the oxygen out of the water and the fish in the pool asphixiate and float to the surface, is this poison?.

If you check out my website in about a months time, you will find the section dealing with acacia much expanded and updated, however it will forever be a work in progress.

I am not aware of what chemical is responsible for the activity on the fish, however the Aborigines would not have used this if they knew of toxic effects to themselves.

http://www.geocities.com/ozethnobot/