How do you argue with idiots?

[chilli]

I haven't gotten into discussion about the war on Iraq since shortly after the initial invasion took place... In the buildup I argued and protested and marched and campaigned but after it happened I got really depressed and everything seemed inevitably doomed.

I remember so clearly the frustration at trying to discuss the relevant issues with people who had been spoon-fed bullshit by the nightly news, and after a while I gave up expecting an exchange of ideas and started to realize that it really was like talking to people who had been brainwashed.

The topic came up tonight and I just couldn't let certain remarks slide, so I got into a discussion with an ignorant bigot if that is even possible... before long I remembered the familiar futility and backed out as I started to see the hopelessness of trying to employ reason in the face of cliched mantras that supported their unrecognized prejudice and ethnocentricity.

The thing is, these guys (more people joined the fray) are just your basic young bozos, and have little idea what they are actually talking about... they are quite obviously repeating things their heroes have told them in order to sound like they have an opinion. All I had to do was ask "why do you say that?" a couple of times in order to ascertain this (the kind of answer given was "what do you mean 'why'?")

So... any advice or stories anyone has in relation to this topic would really be appreciated, as well as any good, concise resources that someone like this could read (assuming they can read) that might be able to do break up some of the hard ground and maybe sow a few seeds in their stony hearts, in the hope that one day something might grow there.

*edit* ooh, I just realized why I was uncomfortable with the idea of written resources... people generally watch things now! In light of this, short movies that don't involve Michael Moore would be awesome.

Edited August 28, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Amulte]

 

 

<---funny

[XipeTotec]

maybe only an idiot would try?

[Evil Genius]

 

Ha ha, xipe. Well, i try hard not to respond to idiots. Thats been a very good way to save myself a lot of nerves. They fastly go somewhere else if they dont get the attention they need. bye Eg

[chilli]

Amulte, I think that is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. Sadly, I think this fellow will be more likely to be persuaded by having what he believes made to look silly than by being convinced through reasonable debate.

XipeTotec, on form as always... your comment has elicited a prolonged wry smirk. All three responses so far have combined to remind me of a Biblical proverb:

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,

or you will be like him yourself.

Answer a fool according to his folly,

or he will be wise in his own eyes.

- Proverbs 26:4,5

Edited August 28, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Evil Genius]

Hey IB, that reminds me about how Jay-Z has interpreted this part of the Bible in a more modern way.

"Dont argue with fools cause people from the distance cant tell who is who!".

I just say "Schizzle my nizzle!" or something deep like that if some young bugger goes on my nerves! They know what it means. Sometimes you have to use their own language.lol.

Most young people who make dumb statements about wars dont really know what they are talking about! They havent used their brain yet. Maybe they never will but thats luckily not your Problem. Most people are really unimpressive! Just try to be different! bye Eg

Edited August 28, 2007 by Evil Genius

[Thelema]

I remember once getting into an argument with a guy about why numerological "systems" for lotto didn't work. I suddenly realised, that in order to make my point, I would have to educate him up to a level of mathematical reasoning that could take days or months. At that point I decided to discontinue the conversation. Yes, some people spaek truly beyond their reach, and are parrots when they do so. And parrots do not doubt themselves, only those who truly know what they are talking about are plagued with doubt.- I think.

[Soma24]

If internet forums have taught me anything, it's that you can never change someone else's opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is

EVER!!

[nothinghead]

Hahahah much sage advice here!

Reminds me of another pertinent adage - You cannot wake a person who is pretending to sleep

[Hugh Bliss]

but does it REALLY matter what THOSE on_forums DO!?what really matters is what the OVERALL effect on those who only LOOK think!?

SO!! i guess!?"1" has to ask!?(OR NOT!?)what EVERYDAY WORLD do you ACTUALLY LIVE IN!?for from your LOFTY heights of WISDOM there exists a LOWLY valley of hoplessness and it is at LEAST a CONCERN to me!?as it SHOULD be YOU!?

But I do enjoy these discussions. Almost as good as passing out tracts.

And what I think you have here are tidal waves against the cliffs of conviction. If a conviction is rock solid, how change beliefs?

Behavior (as in kindness), sure, but beliefs?......just askin.....like a PASS out the TRACTS PIMP!?.....hehe!!....get real!?......

speakin of tidal waves against cliffs of conviction!?(rocks!?)it is well known that just a steady trickle of water will wear down the strongest rocks!?so contained in each massive wave is the hidden trickle of water!?(hardly consciously noticed!?)slowly working.....working.....hehe!!.....just askn...

Edited August 28, 2007 by Hugh Bliss

[Thelema]

That, I guess, is what we all at least aspire to be as part of this network; a steady stream of water against the rocks of egoculture.

[chilli]

Hey IB, that reminds me about how Jay-Z has interpreted this part of the Bible in a more modern way.

"Dont argue with fools cause people from the distance cant tell who is who!".

I just say "Schizzle my nizzle!" or something deep like that if some young bugger goes on my nerves! They know what it means. Sometimes you have to use their own language.lol.

Most young people who make dumb statements about wars dont really know what they are talking about! They havent used their brain yet. Maybe they never will but thats luckily not your Problem. Most people are really unimpressive! Just try to be different! bye Eg

You have again cracked me up EvilGenius, but I think you might be only partly right. Sure Jay-Z is OK I guess, but I'm more of a Sage Francis man myself, or maybe Eminem in his younger days... anyone white basically. I am making fun of myself, I am not racist except probably subconsciously ethnocentric like almost everyone. I like lots of black rappers as well, if that helps. My dad is Maori. I have black and brown friends. Phew, I think the moral alarm is mutating into a kind of disgusted scrutiny.

Nah, but as I said, this guy obviously doesn't know what he is talking about and has not used his brain much, but this is exactly why I think there is hope for him... it is when people begin to use their brains to support their bias that I tend to give up. Maybe I will try to be different by caring about idiots, who knows?

@naysayers

I have certainly had many experiences of frustration with talking to mindless parrots, as I mentioned above. I have also had a few rewarding experiences of persisting with someone and seeing that much of their talk is bravado beneath which they are ignorant and confused, but with such a popular topic as the War on Iraq they need to have an opinion and so they adopt the one that is most popular or convenient to them. Often people like this are very open to suggestion, and if I can suggest they stop being such a knob I will.

There are people who I talked to about these issues four or five years ago who were totally unreceptive, the consummate parrot as mentioned above, who now are very open to these kind of discussions and have dramatically changed their opinions. I did not change their opinion, they did, but I am confident things I said to them were one of the many factors that brought about the change.

Not that I want to get all evangelistic about it or anything, but nor do I intend to be completely fatalistic. If you really didn't think anything you said would influence people's opinions, I doubt you would have bothered to make the posts informing me that it is impossible. Also, you would stop reading books and talking to people that challenged your own opinions (if you do).

The point of mentioning the proverb was to suggest that sometimes it is not worth getting involved, sometimes it is, if a little cunning is employed. I believe this young man is far from being a lost case, and IMMHOO the less bigoted arseholes walking around the better. As I said if I can sow a seed that will one day bear fruit I think it is worth it.

Thanks for the comments though everyone, there are many good points.

Edited August 28, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Evil Genius]

My dad is Maori.

I absolutely love Maori Tatoos and i always thought about getting one too! Thumbs Up!

.....hehe!!.....just askn...

WS, is there a particular reason why your having TWO new Accounts now?

You´ve really missed us, eh?

bye eg

Edited August 28, 2007 by Evil Genius

[apothecary]

While we are going with the adages, here is another appropriate one I recall

"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

[chilli]

While we are going with the adages, here is another appropriate one I recall

"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

Uh, thanks... but is that meant for me, or EvilGenius?

Edited August 28, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[indigo264nm]

While we are going with the adages, here is another appropriate one I recall

"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

I agree - no point doing it in the first place. You just walk the fuck away.

[FungalFractoids]

While we are going with the adages, here is another appropriate one I recall

"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

Either that or they will beat you with raw facts. Of course, you've always got adages like this to hide behind when you can't admit you're wrong

[incognito]

yay welcome back warrioe-sage/kenny bliss or wotever, good to see u back up on the forums!!!!!

as far as arguing with idiots?? i hate arguing to begin with and am not to sure if i fall into the idiot category or not either. possibly so.but fuck. even so called 'idiots' have wisdom to share. u just have to listen humbly. everyone out there has wisdom to share, no matter of ones own preconceptions.

the iraqi war hey,, this idiot heres opinion is that the peeps involved, howard ,bush blair and the rest of their nasty-ass selves are fighting that war for money. oil money, oil reserves arean ever declining(not to mention horribly bad for the environment once they are extracted and produced into oil etc of course) natural resource.

for who? who wants that oil? us, and we want it cheap or we whinge our tits off so that we can put our fatass selves in an automobile(no doubt with assorted 'green' stickers (save the wales,'no war' etc) and drive 5 mins walk down the street for our dvds and worcestershire sauce. cos our society is so pathetically lazy. we wont walk, we wont ride a bike, or convert to green fuels, or DEMAND an alternative even if we have to halt our comfortable free lifestyle for a month or so.

could we? hell yes, the only thing stopping us is our inane lazyness, even as we KNOW whats occuring in this war, allt he innocent people being slayed, all the innocent children murdered, all for what? to provide to us, the consumers, who i think do have the ultimate power.If all the west for one week stopped using any oil based prods i bet this war would close down real quick. but we fuckers are to spoiled, so fat and bloated on george and jonnys nipple, that yeah we dont like seeing those images and reading about that, but fuk' em, its so far away and i have to drop my kids to school.

whos more guilty, jonny and george who implement,? or us as consumers who demand and wont get of our own arses and seek out an alternative, everything has to be done 'for us' and served on a plate.

i just rekon that its all good to say ' fuk howard and bush for killing iraqis' if u are prepared to also analyse urself with ur 'real' position in this war.

'fuk jonny and bush for the war, poor iraqis, but hey im gonna fill up my car, jonny and george fuk iraq over for another 80 litres for m' and i want it next week and cheap, and if u cant get it there find somewhere else and give it to me cheap!!

so easy to sit and blame. if everyone, everyone decided to enact themselvs on this the world might have a chance, but i wont, except maybee convert to biofuels if cheap enough, cos im so lazy, and to be honest ive never met someone from iraq so feel quite detatched from their plight except for when i see iraqi children on tv having their faces reatatched but that feeling usually disapears after a week.

strange creatures we be,humans.

[Hugh Bliss]

yay welcome back warrioe-sage/kenny bliss or wotever, good to see u back up on the forums!!!!!

as far as arguing with idiots?? i hate arguing to begin with and am not to sure if i fall into the idiot category or not either. possibly so.but fuck. even so called 'idiots' have wisdom to share. u just have to listen humbly. everyone out there has wisdom to share, no matter of ones own preconceptions.

the iraqi war hey,, this idiot heres opinion is that the peeps involved, howard ,bush blair and the rest of their nasty-ass selves are fighting that war for money. oil money, oil reserves arean ever declining(not to mention horribly bad for the environment once they are extracted and produced into oil etc of course) natural resource.

for who? who wants that oil? us, and we want it cheap or we whinge our tits off so that we can put our fatass selves in an automobile(no doubt with assorted 'green' stickers (save the wales,'no war' etc) and drive 5 mins walk down the street for our dvds and worcestershire sauce. cos our society is so pathetically lazy. we wont walk, we wont ride a bike, or convert to green fuels, or DEMAND an alternative even if we have to halt our comfortable free lifestyle for a month or so.

could we? hell yes, the only thing stopping us is our inane lazyness, even as we KNOW whats occuring in this war, allt he innocent people being slayed, all the innocent children murdered, all for what? to provide to us, the consumers, who i think do have the ultimate power.If all the west for one week stopped using any oil based prods i bet this war would close down real quick. but we fuckers are to spoiled, so fat and bloated on george and jonnys nipple, that yeah we dont like seeing those images and reading about that, but fuk' em, its so far away and i have to drop my kids to school.

whos more guilty, jonny and george who implement,? or us as consumers who demand and wont get of our own arses and seek out an alternative, everything has to be done 'for us' and served on a plate.

i just rekon that its all good to say ' fuk howard and bush for killing iraqis' if u are prepared to also analyse urself with ur 'real' position in this war.

'fuk jonny and bush for the war, poor iraqis, but hey im gonna fill up my car, jonny and george fuk iraq over for another 80 litres for m' and i want it next week and cheap, and if u cant get it there find somewhere else and give it to me cheap!!

so easy to sit and blame. if everyone, everyone decided to enact themselvs on this the world might have a chance, but i wont, except maybee convert to biofuels if cheap enough, cos im so lazy, and to be honest ive never met someone from iraq so feel quite detatched from their plight except for when i see iraqi children on tv having their faces reatatched but that feeling usually disapears after a week.

strange creatures we be,humans.

You are confusing humans with elite scum filth.

The shape sifters rule this earth,Satan and hs crew got us all fighting

i was extremely angry and i still am.

johny, Blair and george traitors, mass murderers, liars,

i am afraid of him, and i'm afraid of who they replace him with,. i can do nothing but them.

my anger is undeniable, so is my fear but somewhere i know there is love all i know i am me and i am free and he really is the enemy

Good... Excellent.... feeeel the anger coursing through your veins. It will bring you power. Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to action.

Don't be a denier.

there has been estimates of 100000 civs killed by US troops.

It is not the troopers that start wars it is the politican and they will be held accountable.

1 million died during the Iraqi sanction (500000 children under 5)- influence by America

300000 civs killed by US troops in gulf war 1.

4000 during Afgan war.

Most civs where kill by US bombing.

5 million civs in vietnam

anyone who gets involved in fighting in an unjust war sponsored by an unjust government should be aware of the consequences of their actions. Heroes, drafted dummies or volunteer mercenaries?!

No Vietnamese soldier ever massacred my village! No Iraq insurgent ever put an IED in my path. My point is that we should look at this in connected reality, of course, we should help those who return all banged up from foreign unjust wars on a humane basis, but let us not forget the origins and historical contexts of such wars! We need to stop making such so-called heroes!

Saddam did not kill any Iraqis. He told others to kill Iraqis.

Yet he was hung for his crimes.

My first animal instinct is to be glad the verdict is in and that Saddam is to be hanged as he was and is a great evildoer, then, my striving to be a conscious humane being makes me ponder upon this a little longer before we run out and take a basket collection for a rope. It has not been a cut and dry case.

I am against the death penalty as wielded by an unjust state, but there are exceptional cases when the death penalty is appropriate when great crimes have been committed. However, judging by the way death penalty verdicts are stalled out by appeals inside the United States I doubt if there will be

I believe there should have been an international tribunal and neutral grounds for the Saddam Trial, which became a big media circus, not to mention the killing of officers of the court. The whole case involves matters of global international law, especially when we consider the question of who kept Saddam in power for so long in the first place

The National Security Archive at George Washington University has published a series of declassified U.S. documents detailing the U.S. embrace of Saddam Hussein in the early 1980’s. The collection of documents, published on the Web, include briefing materials, diplomatic reports of two Rumsfeld trips to Baghdad, reports on Iraqi chemical weapons use during the Reagan administration and presidential directives that ensure U.S. access to the region's oil and military expansion…..

Click=

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein: The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82

Rumsfeld Shaking Hands with Saddam =

the west started it. Acting all surprised when the west got attacked is disingenuous. The US wasn't minding it's own business, anyone who thinks it was needs to study a bit more history.

I don't think those attacks were justified. I don't think the US interfering in other countries was justified either. If the US hadn't been doing anything, it wouldn't have been attacked.

Right-wing warmongering and greed is what got em into this mess in the first place - what leads em to conclude that more right wing warmongering will get em out of it?

The US is welcome where it's an ally against an outside threat. It isn't welcome where it IS the threat. You see the difference?

Whether it really is a threat or not isn't relevant, and whether it's the lesser or greater of two evils isn't relevant either. What matters is that it is believed to be a threat.

Yes, people will fight back against what they perceive to be a threat. They'll fight back against foreign domination. The same way the Resistance fought back in WW2, and with much the same strategies. The difference is that they're much better trained - does the phrase Operation Cyclone mean anything to you? Perhaps it should.

I'm not saying the terrorists are justified. I am saying that I can see why they might believe themselves to be justified.

I'm not the one who was surprised by 9/11. The people who were saying that the US should stay the hell out of other people's countries were not surprised. The dangerous innocence is in meddling with other countries, funding and training religious extremist terrorists, and expecting NOT to be attacked.

You go into a war zone, you will get shot at. It seems rather innocent, and disingenuous, to say that you fighting a war in else's country is fair, but him taking the war to your country is breaking the rules.

long term military occupation against a hostile population is stupid. you have to find a political solution or get out. if let yourself be forced into a long term occupation against a hostile population, it means your screwing up politicaly. you have to match your war aims to what is both militarily and politicaly possiable.

no war

its not nice to kill people. ever.

Fact

No long term military occupation against a hostile population has ever be a success.

Gulf war 1 -100000 - civs MURDERED

The Sanction - 1 million civs MURDERED (half where children)

afghanistan - 4000 civs MURDERED

Gulf war 2 - 300000 civs MURDERED.

I think Americans live in a toilet bowl, thats why they can’t see, think or speak properly

americans should use their brains to break the chains of denial that you have shackled upon themself.

This the same eye closing during world war 2 of the annihalation of the jews. Are they any better than the German population?

Yes lets get real. AMERICANS ARE SICK AND PERVERTED INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SO INATELY RACIST THAT THEY CANNOT IMAGINE THE SUFFERING OF OTHER PEOPLES. THESE ARE JUST RAGHEADS SO IT DOES NOT COUNT. THAT THEY KILLED FOUR ARMED MERCENARIES WHO HAD ILLEGALLY INVADED THEIR COUNTRY CALLED FOR COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT OF FALLUJAH AND THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS. YOU ARE SUCH A TYPICAL UGLY AMERICAN!

THE U.S. (as well as australia and britain) HAS NO BUSINESS IN IRAQ. GET OUT! NOW!

the Americans that support this war that should be dead.

I realize that the majority of people do not want war in their country....peace to you brother or sister who are against this war of terror...your government needs to drop dead though as well as it supporters of war...

I just wonder people like those and other Americans who believed in this war and supported can even open their mouths and say something. they should cut their toungs and just stay quite that will be an honour.......What American’s are doing or perhaps western cultuers are doing to other countires is going to back fire soon...liberate Iraq...give women their rights...yeah right...I know how much rights women have in America. Just in America...according to govt...sources every 15 seconds one women gets abused in America, ....oh not forget when we watch Jerry Springer in other countires, that really shows what incest is all about...

Geting a hard on over dead and women and children does not make 1 brave.

American Citizens where never under threat from Saddam.

To you and all who support the war...why are you siting behind the computer and typing away....Join the army if you really believe in the cause...YOu will enjoy the killing ..probably cuts down the murders that is done on your own streets.

you are just chicken ****s..

Americans can be like as those Germans that ran the Gestapo prisons, etc. Sad.

Iraq was a pure invasion with greed, killing, hatred and racism in their agenda. The fact is, and everyone is aware of this, that America is a racist nation who believes they are superior to everyone. Due to Americans’ poor education, they are unaware that history always repeats itself, and one day America will not remain a superpower. People in these regions do not forget atrocities. They still have conflicts with events thousands of years ago. Bravo America. You made the world safer. Here, have a cookie.

arabs are not red Indians;This time the American cowboy has taken on a people who both culturally and religiously are certainly going to pay the americans back with intrest added- and not be exterminated as the red indians were.I only hope when the time comes,those arabs remember it was Bush and his crowd and not all Americans who are responsible for this insult to human values and behaviour. Pax Americana Bush style mean not only an end to moral conduct at the international level by the US government, but also the start of an international resistance by the oppressed which will herald the end of oppressive and aggressive US mentality symbolised by cowboy Bush.

And dont think it will just be the arabs turning terrorists.(lots of angry teens).. there are many westerners that hate this corrupt system that will turn...

I do not agree with hurting the American people but those in power shall be destroyed, nothing better then wiping nazi scum from the earth.

Three nerds with good hacking skill can bring the gov and millitary system to it knees.

If not supporting nazi scum makes me a terrorist then I must be.

You have shown a. violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture.

As with their nazi leaders they are trully are the scum of the earth

yes,this is the real pro-terrorists and terrorist himself, no respect of himself and to other beings, they dserve to be in the guillotine and stoned to die!

The world would be a better place if you all died - and many wouldn’t mind to much if it was horrible slow death. Die scum.

thanks America

The bombing of non-combatant populations violated international and humanitarian laws.

----American protest to Japan about its bombing of China in 1938

The American Government and the American people have for some time pursued a policy of wholeheartedly condemning the unprovoked bombing and machine-gunning of civilian populations from the air .

----American President Roosevelt on the Soviet bombing of Helsinki in 1939

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM

America has been at war with the planet for years.

Its war of terror continues

those terrors must be condemned.

here are the statistics

(only some of the many the US has been illegally involved in)

Innocents murdered by the US

UN sanction -

over million (half where children)

-The sanction even stoped medical supplies .

Vietnam-

over 4 million civs killed

First Gulf war

35 000 - 100000

Current gulf mass murder spree

Jan. 2007 the U.N. reported more than 34,000 civilians were "violently killed" across Iraq in 2006, with an average of 94 killed every day. "According to information made available to UNAMI (U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq), 6,376 civilians were violently killed in November and December 2006, with no less than 4,731 in Baghdad, most of them as a result of gunshot wounds," the report said.

See http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/hist/iraq_war.html

Afghanistan civilians

3500

NO civilian casualties can be justified and war must END NOW to stop

The U.S. has perverted the U.N. weapons process by using it as a tool to justify military actions, falsely so. ... The U.S. was using the inspection process as a trigger for war."

-- Scott Ritter, former head of the U.N. arms inspection team in Iraq, on the NBC Today show, December 17, 1998.

"I want every Iraqi soldier bleeding from every orifice."

-- General Norman Schwarzkopf

"More than 4,500 children under the age of 5 are dying each month from hunger and disease."

-UNICEF, October 1996.

Leslie Stahl: "We have heard that a half million children have died (as a result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it."

-- A CBS Sixty Minutes interview between Leslie Stahl and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, on 12 May 1996

In July 1989 (before the sanctions), 387 children under the age of five died in Iraq.

In July 1998 (after the sanctions), 6,495 children under the age of five died, a 16-fold increase from before the sanctions.

While many may argue that there is no justification for the Iraqi aggression against Kuwait (despite the many Kuwaiti provocations, such as border slant drilling into an Iraqi-shared oil pool, OPEC oil production agreements violation by Kuwait, Kuwait's demands of immediate loan repayment by Iraq which the latter owed the former following the Iran-Iraq war), the U.S. response to Iraq, by bombing it back to a pre-industrial age with the immense loss of life and the murderous sanctions that continued, amounting to a war crime, is way less justified in its barbaric and atrocious magnitude.

Many Iraqi soldiers and civilians (of 1-200,000 total) were killed by being buried alive or by incineration while fleeing. Many of the soldiers who were killed were not even in combat. During the Gulf War, the U.S. and allies dropped 88,000 tons of bombs (cluster, fragmentation bombs, napalm, fuel air explosives,.. all outlawed), in addition to other missiles and rockets, during 110,000 air raids. 93 percent of the bombs were free falling, while 7 percent were guided (surgical bombing), of which 30 percent missed their targets. Among the destruction were facilities essential to civilian life such as power plants, telephone exchanges, sewage and water treatment plants, whose only aim could be to destruction a nation and the will of its people.

American Public and Media

ON "SUPPORTING OUR TROOPS"

"... what does it mean if somebody asks you, Do you support the people in Iowa? Can you say, Yes, I support them, or No, I don't support them? It's not even a question. It doesn't mean anything. That's the point. The point of public relations slogans like "Support our troops" is that they don't mean anything. They mean as much as whether you support the people in Iowa. Of course, there was an issue. The issue was, Do you support our policy? But you don't want people to think about that issue. That's the whole point of good propaganda."

-- Noam Chomsky (Media Control)

U.S. Foreign Policy/Hypocrisy

"the greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own country."

--Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"It is becoming increasingly clear, that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into the aggressive power that the United States ultimately had to destroy."

-- Ted Koppel, NightLine, ABC News 06/09/1992

Before the war the U.S. was a "friend" of Iraq, giving it intelligence on Iran, "agricultural" credit (which Saddam would convert for other uses), shielding it from criticism at the U.N., reducing its "rogue" status (to allow US defense companies to sell it weapons), even gave it biological weapons (form a Maryland company). In 1984 when the U.N. confirmed Iraq was using mustard and nerve gasses against Iranian "human wave" attacks in border war, the U.S. State Department issued only a mild condemnation, and went on to restore diplomatic relations with Iraq, in addition to opposing U.N. action against Iraq. In 1988 Iraq used chemical weapons again, against Kurdish minority in Halabjah, but the U.S. continued to maintain "agricultural" credits with Iraq, and President Reagan even blocked congressional sanctions against Iraq.

click

Baby-Milk factory

destroyed by the U.S.

Today (mid 1999), Iraq's GDP is 2 percent of the Pentagon (U.S. Military) budget for 1999, and 10 percent its GDP before the Gulf War. But still the U.S. leaders and media portray it as a monsterous threat to world peace.

Then, there is also the central question of war crimes done by war criminals from the USA, including President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and the whole Oval Office Cabal and their cronies. Who will put them on trial? How can we condemn crimes against humanity by one evil dictator and condone the inhumanity of another evil dictator who stole the Presidential Election in 2000?

The U.S. government obviously does not give a damn about the desires and wishes of the Iraqui people for peace and justice, so why should it start caring now? It already allows the rape and murder of innocent Iraqi girls and massacres of Iraqi families! Remember that or does memory fail you? Who will stop these mutant Amerikan War criminals and their bastard offspring?

John 8:7 ~ So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone

One should always take and keep a strong stand on basic humane principles, not be swayed by passing winds of devious doctrine or warped by popular opinion of the U.S. general population still suffering from terrorist paranoia and a form of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) post-911 2001.

In traditional electoral politics there is always the struggle between the positions of doing what is right and most humane on the moral high ground and what is popular and politically correct in order to win a given election. Humane principles should remain in our hearts; political elections come and go. Many times it is not an either-or stance on a position that counts as much as what one emphasizes more in his political statements. Who feeds the feeders of public opinion? In electoral politics, there is often the crime of omission or ignoring the obvious while people bleed to death because of insane domestic and foreign policies.

The question of the Third Millennium: How do we create a true socialist democracy i and true socialist democracies throughout the world where the people actively participate in their government? Total liberation must be worldwide.

Let all progressive partisans have clear basic definitions of what democracy and socialism is all about:

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Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural -cies

Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dEmokratia, from dEmos + -kratia -cracy

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2 : a political unit that has a democratic government

3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States

4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

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Main Entry: so·cial·ism

Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m

Function: noun

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

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Does that not beat what we have now under a half-disguised fascist corporate capitalism as the many poor parents dread the expense of another Christmas?

Look at the great positive strides of democratic socialism in Latin America!

America includes all of North America, Central America and South America. The term America is not the exclusive domain of the U.S.A. come together and totally liberate all of the Americas from domestic capitalism and foreign imperialism!

Surveying U.S. actions in Cuba, Nicaragua, Turkey, the Far East, South America and elsewhere as well its many covert-ops, war of terror, and cold war over the past half a century along with the modern American war in Iraq, America is just as much a terrorist state as any other government or rogue organization. George W. Bush's 2003 invasion of Iraq drew worldwide criticism, in part because it seemed to present a new philosophy of pre-emptive war and an appearance of global empire building. such has been the operating philosophy of American foreign policy for decades. Opponents of the Bush administration's tactics consistently point out how the American government supported Saddam Hussein for many years prior to the 1990 invasion of Kuwait (pictures of Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand are easy to come by) as a means of pointing out how the United States is happy to fund despots when it's in American interests. the repression of other nations' citizenry is, in fact, the very reason Americans support certain foreign leaders.

The Amerikan Empire under the reign of global corporate capitalism still controls, directs and manages the world economy in its endless quest for market expansion as it knows that is must expand to live, though, it is already stretched out too thin in a way that is reminiscent of the Roman Empire before its eventual demise.

Puppet-Fuhrer President Bush Jr. has gone completely insane, fails to heed the sound sane advise of his own savvy military advisers and instead banishes them into national obscurity. Bush Jr. will be remembered in human history as the Dunce Decider that got the United States involved in unjust wars of military occupation in the Middle East, especially in Iraq ~ the original true cradle of early human civilization.

The doomed foreign policies of the USA has resulted in millions upon millions of decent Muslims cherishing a burning deep hatred of Amerika, all things Amerikan and billions worldwide harbor deep bitter resentments against the American people who they rightly believe allow their government to run amuck in foreign territories either through overt support for the bogus War on Terror, through the cowardly apathy of the American people and/or the dysfunctional Left-Wing Movement inside the United States.

the increasing corporate profits of big business go on as usual as the rich still get richer while the poor still get poorer. In the context of connected reality, our main central class enemy is still the ruling class of Amerikan Corporate Capitalism, not temporary corrupt politicians in the surface seats of state power who do not really call the shots behind the public photo-op scenes.

“We should strive for positive reforms as much as we can without forgetting along the way that a valid relevant revolution is the ultimate solution, not mere reform upon a corrupt body politic. Let us not forget the grand strategic aim: the seizure of state power by masses of people led by their vanguard elements!”

Bloglink= http://detodos-paratodos.blogspot.c...-44-senate.html

The grand strategic aim remains the same: the seizure of state power by any means mandatory by an aggressive armed people.

We should pray for a peaceful non-violent true resolution of all these great global conflicts between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ yet be prepared to defend ourselves against all evil predators. We should keep uppermost in mind that there has never been a real solid peaceful revolution. Even those that claim to be so for now were preceded by and the result of decades of social chaos, turmoil and mass bloodshed. Armed with a keen knowledge of history as a guide to action we should know that eventually civil war in at least scattered sites inside the United States is as predictable as nightfall. We must never disarm ourselves with naïve pacifist liberalism as we get blown away or quietly starve to death. It is not a debate of violent methods versus non-violent methods. It is really question of either fighting back and living or giving up and dying.

”Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

To me, as a Chicano-de-Aztlan, the most significant events of 2006 revolved around the huge immigrant rights marches that happened all around May 1st 2006 and were witnessed by millions of people worldwide. Even the Creator took humble notice!

At the time, the Bush Rogue Regime was fanning the fascist flames of combating global terrorism, waging an unjust war of occupation in Iraq and instilling vile xenophobia (fear of foreigners) in average White middle-class Americans.

Back then, the most repressive immigration bill in U.S. history was being proposed called the Sensenbrenner Bill whose chief sponsor was Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.). It threatened to turn 12 million people into criminal federal felons and was the single spark that lit a prairie fire for the immigrant rights marches as it would have turned into criminals all of the 12 million+ undocumented immigrants living in the U.S., along with anyone who aided and abetted them. Mass conspiracy was and is inevitable.

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Related Links=

December 15, 2006: From mass immigrant rights marches to the vote against war

A year of gathering discontent

http://www.socialistworker.org/2006...iscontent.shtml

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Monday, April 3rd, 2006

Immigration Reform, Big Business, NAFTA and the Impact on the African American Workforce

http://www.democracynow.org/article...6/04/03/1318252

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In response, many undocumented Mexican immigrants, their families and supporters took the risk of marching in the streets to express their humane rights as humane beings. The whole political-social landscape in relation to immigrants inside the United States was transformed and it is still going through a deepening process of social changes.

These early immigrant rights marches were an extension and intensification of the earlier Civil Rights Movement led by Martin Luther King, Jr. yet should also be seen in the larger context of the on-going global struggles for humane rights in general all around the world. It was beyond only daily-violated Civil Rights, but all about the sublime respect for humane rights that are ordained to us by Creator God, not by any mere mortal government. We are born with these humane rights as our birthright irrespective of their recognition by any man-made government!

So far, Black-Americans have failed to come out in their splendid strength and many numbers in support of immigrant rights for Latinos, as they are aware of their own precarious position in a land still dominated by White racism and are deprived of a strong vanguard party to give us all guidance, direction and leadership. Fear, ignorance and insanity reign in the land I spell Amerika!

Inside the U.S.A., Blacks and Browns once united together based upon common principles can dramatically transform not only the United States but the whole world, especially in organized unity with other Third World peoples, progressive White-Americans and educated Europeans.

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Related Links=

Tuesday, April 11th, 2006

Immigrant Rights Marches Likened to Second Civil Rights Movement

http://www.democracynow.org/article...6/04/11/1426258

Monday, May 1, 2006; Posted: 10:21 p.m. EDT (02:21 GMT)

Thousands march for immigrant rights

Schools, businesses feel impact as students, workers walk out

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/im....day/index.html

Saturday Sep 2nd, 2006 8:58 PM

Labor Day Weekend 2006: Lists of Nationwide Immigrant Rights Marches

by Lee Siu Hin - ImmigrantSolidarity.org ( info [at] ImmigrantSolidarity.org )

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/20...02/18305659.php

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Americans, I mean U.S. citizens, need to get rid of their phony patriotism. We love our sons and should resist their involvement in unjust Empire-building wars! Let us not forget the humane principles upon which your country was founded and let us not forget the slave masters who were the signers of the Declaration of Independence! This whole country was founded upon the evil institution of slavery! Maybe I digress here. I assure you that upon the Return of Jesus Christ HE will not come back the same way he left!

You are still living under a mature disguised fascism, especially when people have a comic-book notion about fascism with images of Nazi Germany and grossly underestimate the flexibility of Amerikan Fascism.

When the world witnessed the great immigrant rights marches this year a lot of Latinos, including Mexicanos, woke up for awhile yet no real immigration reform has happened as we will suffer more repression as times goes by and the Amerikan wall is going up! The whole USA is becoming a fascist-inspired militarily gated community that will keep some out and keep us all inside its legal borders inside the continental United States.

At the risk of being redundant, we still need to build up a strong global vanguard liberation movement not limited by colors, tongues or borders.

I really wish more progressive activists who are online and interested in Latino News would join up with Aztlannet_News Yahoo Group, especially with all that is going on in different regions related to various issues. We have more strong collective power when our impassioned voices are joined together.

Ideally, we should have our own TV Cable News Show, more videos and utilize all forms of media. Internet Power is one major way we can utilize to overcome the dominant corporate media.

We need to all learn better how to use Internet Power in order to combat the lies and calculated disinformation of the fascist dogs.

the U.S.A. government became a rogue nation the moment that Bush Jr. became President after his legalistic coup-d-etat over Al Gore in 2000 and Gore's rolling over meekly.

The U.S.A. government has violated international law and its own U.S. Constitution. Puppet-Fuhrer Bush is a war criminal and all of his Oval Office Cabal are war criminals.

I believe the docile apathetic Amerikan people are ever so slowly gradually starting to wake up to what is going down inside the United States.

Thank God we have Internet Power right now in order to help spread the truth to others, though, I strongly suspect that it will not stay in the form it is in right now, though, there may already be rogue-government hackers.

Fascists hate the truth and will kill truth-sayers. Hell, they are even harassing young teenage girls!

I am not blaming progressives. I am blaming the reactionary dogs in the White House who have manufactured this present fascist order. The White left-radical progressive wing does not and cannot represent the vital survival interests of Latinos. I am looking at it from the perspective of a poor Chicano who is of the largest racial-ethnic minority in side the United States and of the majority in the real world. The Third World IS the majority world! Will progressive Whites aggressively support our political agenda and look out for the basic survival interests of Latinos in general? Hell no!

Latinos are behind in every social-economic indicator under the present fascist order. Many Whites, most of whom are racists whether subconsciously or not, do not give a **** about us and want us all to go back to Mexico. Progressive Whites should focus on healing the social sickness of White racism among their own White people, not telling non-Whites what they should or should not support in the name of what is ‘progressive’. We don’t need the White Amerikan mind! Us Latinos have our own minds and are quite capable of making our own independent choices without confused co-dependent help from progressive Whites.

Each of us should work in our own natural habitat and social environment. Latinos and Blacks will bring about a revolutionary paradigm shift in the whole American landscape once we are united on a common humane rights agenda and rid ourselves of our own remnants of racism.

After these round of elections are over a lot of the basic voter registration and community education will still have to be done by progressives, or better, compassionate humane beings. Do not let this period further divide us. We should work together in areas that we can and know that we will not and cannot always see eye-to-eye on everything. Latinos and Blacks are being repressed now and living in Third World like conditions inside the United States. Now a lot of White racists are coming out of the floorboards in the name of phony patriotism that veils their racist xenophobia. Will you walk with me door-to-door in our barrios/ghettos after dark???

Will you fire away with me if it comes down to a firefight? Progressive Whites can always put on a business suit and go back to their folks undercover! We have always been here and will always be here. We are at home in the Americas!

have a straight up radical global overview in these reactionary xenophobic times inside the United States. We Latinos are responsible for our own community education and our own liberation in harmony with all people’s liberation struggles worldwide. We need to build up a community-based infrastructure; relate to the people’s basic needs; and build up working coalitions with our natural allies.

There is a progressive Sacra website that has been around for a long time related to progressive events on the local level that you may want to check out:

With all that has happened this year in of immigrant rights, our marches and rallies, it is time to ratchet up our collective struggles for Latino Liberation. We are not asleep. We are wide awake and need to wake up all our gente!

~ Oue enemies are the mega-global corporations, the fascist state power structure, the fascist-minded military machine and all their fanatical flunkeys, then, as Carlos hinted at there is the enemy within aka: agent provacateurs.

I was hoping to get more of a response and feedback about my essay itself and wish others in this group would present their personal psycho-social ideas about the concept of Latino LIberation either through an essay, a blog post or a well thought out Email.

The main idea in my essay:

Analysis on Latino Liberation Inside the United States: was:

http://liberation-now.blogspot.com/...ion-inside.html

"... the old Chicano Movement will have to shed its old skin of reactionary nationalism and come to embrace scientific democratic socialism, along with the peoples of Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba and other liberated territories of Latin America in opposition to the Amerikan Empire."

We need to unite with other Latinos throughout the USA, in Mexico, Central America and South America as Latinos.

Plus, we need to come together with our natural allies who are other oppressed suffering peoples from different cultural backgrounds. We should not let our own prejudices and any remnants of racism keep us divided.

I hope someday soon some of us connected with Aztlannet can get together as a junta in for our own Aztlannet-type conference, to exchange ideas, work on some plans and get to know each other face to face.

I want to see a new Latino Libeation Movement built up in harmony with all other progressive liberation movements.

Life upon Mother Earth, its interlocked global economy and even Internet Power has altered the dynamics and mechanics between peoples. New situations call for new analyses.

I first got involved in the 'movimiento' in my teens and know I am getting to be a real viejo, though, I am still in pretty good physical shape and pretty well preserved. I am not a veerano as I know the war rages on!!!

I remember the ol' War on Poverty days when President Johnson was in the White House, the volatile Vietnam War days and how the government would throw some crumbs to us like hungry dogs and some of fools fell for it and fought each other over 'crumbs from the banquet table', including Blacks and Browns here in Sacramento.

In real life, on the street level, sometimes friends become enemies and enemies become friends. It ain't all cut and dry in a gift-wrapped package.

A lot of life has to do with how we handle ourselves in our relations with others. Then, there are critical class enemies whose class interests are inherently opposed to ous own survival-based class interests.

Distinctions must be made and contradictions must be truly analyzed and resolved in of clearly-defined distinctions between antagonic and non-antagonistic contradictions.

Creating unity really has to do with getting to know our companeros in real life, how they think, how they operate under pressure, in the thick of battle or in a crisis situation. It is one thing to type from the comfort of my command post here with a loaded Remington shotgun in the corner and being out in the streets in a real firefight with the local neo-Gestapo.

Ideally, we get to know who are local comapneros are by coming together, by communicating together and by really working together on common plans, programs and projects.

Since we are both in Sacramenot we ought to get together soon for some cafe and compare mental notes.

Keep in mind that we are still going through the after-shocks and dust settling from the big immigrant rights marches and rallies this year. It showed us the great power we have and our far greater potential. We have barely tapped the top.

Nonetheless, protracted social liberation movements are mobilized, staged and manufactured by vanguad leadership, trained cadres and masses of people, not by automatic reflexes or sudden spurts of inspiration.

Fortunately, we are not starting from scratch. In a collective sense, we have a great wealth of experience already paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of many others in earlier times.

Sometimes once loyal partisans get burned out, bought off, filtered away or out-sourced out of the struggles before us.

It is the natural ebb and flow of liberation struggles, coming closer to our calculations at time and at other times receding further away in a constant state of flux.

Our struggle goes on, the movement moves forward and we must be armed with clarity, courage and conviction along with an undying faith in our people in conjunction with our vanguard elements involved in building up infrastructure.

Remember, the anatomy of a power base of operations involves three elements:

1. Personality

2. Organization

3. Capital

Liberation Now!

Edited August 29, 2007 by Hugh Bliss

[FungalFractoids]

^^ Just out of interest, how much 'organisation' do you participate in? I mean, other than making epic posts on interweb forums.

[Hugh Bliss]

^^ Just out of interest, how much 'organisation' do you participate in? I mean, other than making epic posts on interweb forums.

I am new to all of this!? you could say I am in the process of getting organised!? ideas before action!?anyway

america is a self made holy version is a saint,everyone else is S H I T!?that about cover it!?hehe!!satan.guess we gotcha PEGGED NOW!!hehe!!all "W" ever confessed to is the word "EVIL" hehe!!do you THINK they are related!?now ya gotta ask,which ones is he refering to!?hehe!!just make up what cha want OUTA it (why!?,that's what i wanta know!!)you gettin the PICTURE yet!?hehe!!just askin.....

....1938 in europe,look around........the only thing is,i see 1 kind the way you see 1 kind and neither 1 of is is RIGHT!?so HEY!!ever watch those time travel movies where they get to go back in TIME and try and CHANGE the bad things that they KNEW were gonna HAPPEN in the FUTURE!?and then......they realize...AT SOME POINT...that if they change anything,it must be PART of the FUTURE they are TRYIN ta AVOID!?see what I'M sayin!?(REASONONG CAN BE BASED ON FEAR OF THE FUTURE!?)but take another movie about the same thing("frequency"),and you see ANOTHER approach to the PROBLEM!?communicate with the PAST!?to UNDERSTAND and apply the CORRECT measures to CHANGE the NOW!!not the FUTURE!!there is no FUTURE!!it's a clever LIE!!it's like saying,oh!your hungry,well, wait till TOMMOROW and you will be FED!?hehe!!and i challenge you to do this.....BE HAPPY!?....."IN" the FUTURE!?and by the way,COMMUNICATE is the BEST part of ANY RELIGION!?it' just happens to be the PART that is LEFT OUT by it's FOLLOWERS!?(at least the FALSE ONES!?)are you STILL a FOLLOWER!?of THAT/what we MUST EXAMINE,dont cha thunk!?if 1 were to be SERIOUS about a SOLUTION!?DUCT TAPE IS DEAD!?(duct tape will never die!?)hehe!!just askin...