Walking to the shops ‘damages planet more than going by car’

[Ace]

I dont feel guilty about having a biological son (in fact, I quite enjoy it) - I just have a strong opinion against having a large family (in excess of 2 or 3 children). I am very happy and I guess I feel very lucky that I have such a life, because it is not something that I had imagined or really expected. Though I believe it has brought us (partner and I) together more than all the other major things in our lives with each other.

I am not saying that everyone should completely stop having kids (but it must be said, that would be ideal for our species, at least for a few years), but to cut down chilren numbers would have a drastically positive effect on peoples lives.

I will admit I know little regarding statistics, but it is pretty easy to see that there is a problem. While mass murder is off limits, everyone can do their bit by avoiding popping out more than say two bubs (which will turn into adults with time - one thing that a lot of people tend to overlook - you are essentially creating an adult, which they will spend most of their lives as. This may not sound like a big point - but look at the consumption rates of a bub/kiddie compared to an adult. It is rarely if ever thought about...). If a couple would like a large family, I feel they should look into adoption/foster parenting as Osprey mentioned.

I am not 100% sure on the ideal reproduction rates, but from what I've heard recently I believe they sit at 1 or 2 children. Like Torsten/Illegal Brain were discussing - low numbers will only replace deceased previous generations, without increasing current population numbers (though you may need to find some actual figures as I dont have any time to check atm). The rate can easily be determined using current populations, estimated resource levels, reproduction rates (how many years between generations), etc and come up with an estimate. There may not be a 'perfect' number (could be 3.123124351083471024 children per couple for example - lets not go hacking up kiddies - just round the number down ), but it should provide an idea of what to aim for.

And of course not everyone will listen to such stats, but the more it is discussed, the more people will pay attention - no different to global warming or CFCs and the ozone layer. Even if only 5% of the population takes something away and puts it into practice, then at least there will be some dint in the current stats, if only small. Of course, it would be fantastic if every family just produced between 0 and 3 kids - it would have some pretty big changes, and the world would benefit, as well as the longevity of our species (the more resources to use over a longer period) and other species.

EDIT: Typos

Edited August 27, 2007 by Ace

[teonanacatl]

if everyone has only one kid for themselves the population will increase then plateu. Its asimple biology issue, if we look at say a kangaroo.

Population starts at 10 and each eats lets say 10kg of grass a year, so 100kg grass for the population as it stands and lets say the area they live in has 1000kg grass per year. So during the first year lots will breed because there is enough food to support them, so lets say population reaches 50, thats 500kg grass per year, the next year there is still alot of grass left so they breed and there is 100 in the population, there is just enough food for them. So then the next year they try to breed as they did last year and the population hits 150, thats too far over the resorces they have so 50 will die, who dies will be decided by survival of the fittest, and every year some more will die.

It really has to do with the resorces at hand, and as the populaiton grows and they may be able to begin farming etc, but there will come times when they will either reach that plateu or master another means to avoid it. Sofar we have avoided many such plateus, we cannot do that for ever and the easiest way to avoid them is to keep population at a sustainable level. In aus we have hit the water problem.

I dont think there should be a limit on how many kids you have, I think encouraging just one per person is good, like T said no benifits after the second. Its somthing the people in charge do need to consider. I dont think we have to kill people off either. This is not really about protecting the earth anymore its about saving our race as it stands.

Plus I hate looking at google earth and seeing the large cities which would eventually cover our entire coastline if population increases.

[Torsten]

Iv never argued a warning

Ahh good. Because there is obviously a glitch as 100% warn = deletion. And I'll just go and fix that now.

And just for anyone else who has an issue with the deletion, there is no excuse for racism on this forum and JoP knows that.

but the thing is when you have fucking (exuse the racisim) arabs moving to countries to breed +6 kids

[Flange]

(THIS IS JOP,I WROTE THIS DURING THE TIME I GOT THE WARNING AND CUT OFF FROM POSTING...NO DISRESPECT TO YOU TORSTEN BUT IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO WRITE . THIS IS MY BROTHERS OLD ACCOUNT AND I WILL NOT POST AGAIN UNTIL YOU LET ME)

Population starts at 10 and each eats lets say 10kg of grass a year, so 100kg grass for the population as it stands and lets say the area they live in has 1000kg grass per year. So during the first year lots will breed because there is enough food to support them, so lets say population reaches 50, thats 500kg grass per year, the next year there is still alot of grass left so they breed and there is 100 in the population, there is just enough food for them. So then the next year they try to breed as they did last year and the population hits 150, thats too far over the resorces they have so 50 will die, who dies will be decided by survival of the fittest, and every year some more will die.

K i get that, sounds about right. but what if those kangaroos started to import some of their food? or even 100% of it? like in australia its not like theres a shortage of food when you walk into a supermarket. but to be fair and honest i can easily see how that system can fail and what would happen if the supply lines ran dry,i guess thats one of our plateus.

Anyway,iv been doing some reading the last few hours and iv been checking the birth rates for australia, and iv seen that its actually been going down for a while, and its pretty much a trend in all western countries.

heres 1 link of the sites iv found.

http://www.facs.gov.au/internet/facsintern.../FacsSheet9.pdf

i donno exactly what the wwf group said about australias desired population number, but at around 20 mil now, with people still having kids and the population still going down it cant be all bad? i dont think generally people should have any more then 3/4 kids, less if they want. one thing i wouldent mind knowing tho (couldent find it) is the birthrates of first generation immigrants compared to 2+ generations. i ask not on a racist level but because my perants are first generation in australia and they had 4 kids and pretty much all my their generation reletives had 3/4 kids,meanwhile all their kids these days (all grown up) dont have any kids yet, cept for my brother who has 2 kids

we (australia) just need to fix some of our sustainability policies with energy and water and a few other things. then maybe we could adopt or settle at around 21 million,(uneducated guess) meanwhile the rate is still going down slowly.

Anyways, heres another link to a site which has the stats of world birth rates for 2006.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=as&v=25

The highest ranking "western" country is Israel at 116 and USA at 149, with australia at 165.

CYA GUYS

[chilli]

Exactly. A very good point Osprey. Though a lot of people still have some issues with that sort of lifestyle - it can be very difficult to become a fosterparent or to adopt, it can also be quite a big decision to take another families child as your own (and a lot of very disturbed individuals have come from adopted/fostered families - but more likely from their background before the new family). Personally, I find the thought of raising my own kids is hard enough to take on someone elses (though even I can see how close minded this POV sounds - if I didnt have kids yet, it would certainly become something to think seriously about).

Even still, if someone wants to raise a family but is quite against procreation, then it is always a fantastic option (as well as increasing family numbers for those already established). Another 2 for 1 deal - helping a child out of what may be a difficult situation, as well as creating/increasing a family for yourself and your partner.

Funny, I made this point about fostering and adoption once or twice already in this thread... my paranoia agents are informing me that many people see IllegalBrain at the top of a post and skim or skip ahead.

Yes, I would like some kind of an award please.

[nothinghead]

Most of the pollution comes from the US and other highly developed countries

Where does the majority of India's and China's industrial output go? To the west, ie to you and me and all the other frivolous consumers. So not only are we the major polluters ourselves, we also encourage and enable other countries to pollute for us so that we can maintain our lifestyles.

Good point. As well as this Australia is way up there ("top" 5 last time I checked?) with the amount of pollution we produce per capita. Going by this and some of the rhetoric in this thread it would be more sensible to say that it is better that the Middle East (for arguments sake) breeds at a high rate while Australia does not. Of course this is not the case, more population on the planet is not sensible from an environmental point of view. Thinking in terms of the planet as a whole and not in terms of continents and nations is more useful here.

That said it's not easy to come up with a solution, but ruling out the unhelpful ideas helps to move towards the better ones.

IllegalBrain - I think most people posting late in the thread just can't be bothered reading all the earlier stuff. Annoying when opinions are repeated but I don't think you're being purposefully ignored.

[Osprey]

Funny, I made this point about fostering and adoption once or twice already in this thread... my paranoia agents are informing me that many people see IllegalBrain at the top of a post and skim or skip ahead.

Yes, I would like some kind of an award please.

I did read what you said illegal brain.

It's just that the topic of not having children to help the world keeps coming up,and I feel it's a good thing to do for someone who can't or won't have kids for whatever reason.

i have alot of aquaintances,and friends that have adopted children,and it has really struck me how in every case,the complete bond that occurs on the parent and childs part.

That child ceases to be "someone elses child"and becomes completely their own.

It's amazing,and a beautiful thing to see.

It's a huge commitment however.

Being in my fifties and barely paying the upkeep on a family of four,It's more than I can take on.

But I've given it alot of thought.

mentoring is another way to really help a child that needs a adult positive role model and friend.

IllegalBrain - I think most people posting late in the thread just can't be bothered reading all the earlier stuff. Annoying when opinions are repeated but I don't think you're being purposefully ignored.

[/quote"

i do admit to becoming drowsy and skipping cough and gamma goblins 50 post long argument.To be fair,i will go back and scan it so I don't repeat any copywrited information andannoy you

Edited August 27, 2007 by Osprey

[Monk]

I walked to the liquor store this weekend...on the way, I farted...later, I made a large truck idle and wait at the stop while I crossed the street. Do you guys feel any warmer down there?

cue the tumbleweed.....

[nothinghead]

i do admit to becoming drowsy and skipping cough and gamma goblins 50 post long argument.To be fair,i will go back and scan it so I don't repeat any copywrited information andannoy you

Don't be so melodramatic, I was just suggesting a reason IllegalBrain's posts might have been overlooked. Besides, he is clearly referring to the posts before and after that razor sharp battle of the wits.

[chilli]

I think you are wrong Osprey, my paranoia agents are quite reliable and I am almost certain I am being purposely shunned. It is a conspiracy being controlled at the highest levels of this forum. Time will prove me right.

It's okay Osprey, I allowed for the fact you may have been reiterating in order to emphasize the point, I was just jealously miffed that Ace gave out his congratulatory award to you and not me... after all, I said it first, so don't I own the idea?

I never get any recognition, someone else is always taking the credit.

Copious amounts of salt should be ingested with this and many prior posts.

[Ace]

OK, I'd better jump in and stop this shit fight

IB - sorry mate - I got side-tracked from the 4 page long (or whatever it was) arguement that seperated actual info in this thread (sorry guys, but it really did get a little repetitive) and had forgotten about your comments earlier on. I mentioned Osprey because he reminded me of that point, not because I love him more than you

Its cool - your paranoia agents have just been working overtime and probably need a few days off If it really a big deal, I will go back and edit the post that you have an issue with.

And on another note - how about we get back to the actual thread, not these petty hijacks

[chilli]

OK, I'd better jump in and stop this shit fight

IB - sorry mate - I got side-tracked from the 4 page long (or whatever it was) arguement that seperated actual info in this thread (sorry guys, but it really did get a little repetitive) and had forgotten about your comments earlier on. I mentioned Osprey because he reminded me of that point, not because I love him more than you

Its cool - your paranoia agents have just been working overtime and probably need a few days off If it really a big deal, I will go back and edit the post that you have an issue with.

And on another note - how about we get back to the actual thread, not these petty hijacks

No sorry Ace, you don't need to apologize I am just making fun of myself. I wasn't really hurt or anything, just mucking around. Definitely don't edit your post lol... or wait, are you just messing with me now?

Well the thread has kind of morphed from the OT to population growth, and I guess I don't have much more to add. I will say that I mentioned the original post to a bunch of conservative Anglican's and the minister said "that sounds like my kind of environmentalism"

[Ace]

Lol, yes I was messing with you - I am cool, as long as everyone else is

[Monk]

Well, I am most certainly not cool! What about my walk and fart? Have you guys felt it yet? I'm trying to undo this double hijack and get serious about the original post goddammit!

[Ace]

Haha, funnily enough, it certainly has started warming up lately - though it could be more to do with the tilt of the earth's axis in it's rotation around the sun, but I'm sure your walk/fart assisted somewhat I even had to bust these ones out at lunch: lol

Edited August 28, 2007 by Ace

[chilli]

Well, I am most certainly not cool! What about my walk and fart? Have you guys felt it yet? I'm trying to undo this double hijack and get serious about the original post goddammit!

Oh crap, I didn't even connect what you said with the OP, I thought maybe you were having a 'moment'

If we are going to get truly serious, then I suggest the question we need to ask ourselves is:

"Does the flap of FeloniousMonk's sphincter in California set off a cyclone in Cairns?"

[Monk]

Furthermore, as consumptive little consumers buying all of this pseudo-environmental conservative mumbo jumbo, we need to ask, "if we all start consuming Beano and feeding it to our livestock, can we save the earth through our consumerism?" Now wouldn't Bush and friends be proud ?

this message has been approved by GlaxoSmithKline

EDIT: Haha, IB, I'm always having a 'moment' so you weren't too far off

Edited August 28, 2007 by FeloniousMonk

[chilli]

FeloniousMonk, what the hell is Beano?

[Monk]

Beano-an enzyme product that is supposed to provide relief from farting:http://www.beanogas.com/

Not sure if it works, I enjoy my potency too much to hinder it. Unless, of course, pseudo-environmentalist conservatives think it could save the earth while padding their wallets...

[nabraxas]

I prefer

[Lono]

Far out. when did this place become such a troll farm???

Suggestions that selectively breeding for something as complex and indefineable as intelligence is as easy as selecting for short legged dogs or THC content, that breeding right allocated on socio economic status will have a marked effect on genetic diversity, That toilet cleaners are proved to be stupid by way of their profession, That the relationship between proletariat and bourgeoise is synonymous with that of cats and mice, that overpopulation is only a problem in overpopulated countries, that any flow ons to overpopulation will be solved by nuking asia and the middle east, that Japan is investing in mechantronics so they can lower immigration quotas etc etc blah blah.

I find it ironic that five pages of largely ignorant drivel has been generated, by an article concerned with junk science.

Obviously not having a go at everyone, those excluded I'm sure you'll know who you are

Edited October 10, 2007 by Lono