Is 300 a US psyop?

[DocAzz]

Question: why has the ideal that "freedom isn't free" held up over time? Have we not evolved from the ancient Greeks, is it a tool used against us, or is it simply correct?

[Jesus On Peyote]

Imo Freedom isent free, But there is a difference between fighting for your freedom and just fighting and saying its for your freedom. so i guess its true, in a way.

example, iraqis are fighting in their lands for their freedom from america, while america is saying its fighting to defend their own freedoms in the usa. if you get what i mean.

In a way, its kind of ironic, u could reverse the roles of the greeks and persians and get a better realist picture.. aka america attacking, iraqi\iran defending.

[ENtiTY]

Freedom is a myth. Your only free to do what the powers that be say is ok for you to do.

For example where ethno interests clash with legalities.

But thats the trick isn't it, allowing the people to think they are free while still pulling the strings.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Ah, but that is when you as an individual can earn your own true freedom, the powers can tell us what to do, but are we as selfs willing to fight for what we personally want? regardless of what obstacles put in our way?

But of course, since these obstacles and legal lore are in the way, there is always consequences,so in that you are right that freedom is a faint myth. but its there for those who truly want it.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Jesus On Peyote

[nabraxas]

Freedom is a myth. Your only free to do what the powers that be say is ok for you to do.

actually, being as we have no Bill of Rights we use the Rule of Law to determine our freedoms & that's pretty simple. You are free to do anything that is not forbidden by the law. So "freedoms" can & do change. 5 years ago you were free to buy, sell & use Salvia divinorum. But we lost that freedom.

[chilli]

Question: why has the ideal that "freedom isn't free" held up over time? Have we not evolved from the ancient Greeks, is it a tool used against us, or is it simply correct?

I believe there are times in history when people may have to fight and die to defend their freedom and their nations's sovereignty. The trouble with the way this slogan is being used at the moment is that it is the Iraqi's who see themselves as fighting for their freedom, not the occupying US forces... its the absurd way it is used as a justifications for STARTING a war that sickens me.

[ENtiTY]

Its not just what you can and can't do. The powers that be make it so you have be part of the system so you can live.

For example if you want some thing as basic as a house to live in you have to play their game for 20 plus years just to put a roof over your head. Being locked into something for so long to supply such a basic necessity is just wrong. But this is how the powers that be have things organised, the rich get richer while everyday joe has to slave his guts out.

[chilli]

Its not just what you can and can't do. The powers that be make it so you have be part of the system so you can live.

For example if you want some thing as basic as a house to live in you have to play their game for 20 plus years just to put a roof over your head. Being locked into something for so long to supply such a basic necessity is just wrong. But this is how the powers that be have things organised, the rich get richer while everyday joe has to slave his guts out.

Its easier for the 'everyday joe' to buy a house in our society than probably any other time in history... do you think working for 20 years is an unreasonable amount of time to pay off a house and land?

[Ace]

I think its completely unreasonable - look at the world around us - we are animals, no different to fish, birds or lizards. Their main goal is to live life without dying an early death. Their everyday life is simple - eat, sleep, communicate, fornicate, reproduce, protect and enjoy. Why is it that ours is so different? Granted ours contains these things, but it also comes with much more baggage - taxes, laws, governments, dole bludgers, rich wankers, politicians, pop stars, etc, etc.

We should have the right to a cheap house, a good job providing consistant income and the right to enjoy life at our own risk. We should have the right to live in harmony with the world around us without creating so much needless destruction. We all deserve the rights to cheap fuel economical and safe cars. But somehow all of these simple things are unnecesserily complicated.

Sorry for the comlete diversion from the topic, I'm in a ranting mood, so nerr

Rant, rant, rant

[chilli]

I think its completely unreasonable - look at the world around us - we are animals, no different to fish, birds or lizards. Their main goal is to live life without dying an early death. Their everyday life is simple - eat, sleep, communicate, fornicate, reproduce, protect and enjoy. Why is it that ours is so different?

I don't think it necessarily is that different, your description of animals everyday life sounds pretty much like a description of mine. What I think you're missing is that animals work to eat, they generally spend most of their time eating or finding food to eat. Animals don't own property, if you want to own land and have people spend thousands of hours building a house for you to live in, why the fuck do you think you should have the 'right' to have that cheap? Where do people get these rights?

We live in one of the most privileged societies in the world, the majority of the world doesn't get the option to spend 20 years working for a house they can own, they work 16 hours a day just to eat and feed their families.

Granted ours contains these things, but it also comes with much more baggage - taxes, laws, governments, dole bludgers, rich wankers, politicians, pop stars, etc, etc.

I'm glad we have laws and governments, not so sure about pop stars and taxes though. By most of the world's standards, we are the rich wankers.

We should have the right to a cheap house, a good job providing consistant income and the right to enjoy life at our own risk. We should have the right to live in harmony with the world around us without creating so much needless destruction. We all deserve the rights to cheap fuel economical and safe cars. But somehow all of these simple things are unnecesserily complicated.

Not sure where you get the idea of rights to a cheap house, cheap fuel and economical and safe cars. The good news is you do have the right and the ability to live in harmony with the world without creating needless destruction and to enjoy your life at your own risk... so are you?

[Ace]

Well spoken IB - I can see the other side of the arguement now

We live in one of the most privileged societies in the world, the majority of the world doesn't get the option to spend 20 years working for a house they can own, they work 16 hours a day just to eat and feed their families.

But why is it that we cant all live on the same level, instead of having small societies living in struggle while there are arrogant pricks rolling around in their riches and destorying the planet to further their piles of gold... I think we (the whole human civilisation) should be on par with one another, living comfortably (we certainly have the resources, manpower and knowledge) and respecting one another as well as our planet (and the universe, eventually).

By most of the world's standards, we are the rich wankers.

I know, and that is something that I feel uneasy about. We have the ability to contribute to the rest of the world, but when it comes down to it, most of us are keen to leave our air conditioned offices, go home to our little families and flick on the idiot box for the latest installment of Futurama, Neighbours, Prison Break or whatever the latest trend is... There doesnt seem to be much to our little lives other than this. Every now and then a few of the masses decides its time to help by recycling or sending a couple dollars to the poor in Africa, or something like that - but it takes much more than that. Will we ever see past our everyday lives and actually take control of our worlds future?

Not sure where you get the idea of rights to a cheap house, cheap fuel and economical and safe cars. The good news is you do have the right and the ability to live in harmony with the world without creating needless destruction and to enjoy your life at your own risk... so are you?

I get that idea from the fact that we have the ability to have these things. We have the resouces, time, man power, hell, we even have the robot power! I think it should be a right to have access to a cheaper car - perhaps a hybrid car that runs on hemp seed oil and hydrogen for the same price as the current petrol standards - or a current petrol standard car with all the safety features of modern cars at a much cheaper price to enhance driver safety and reduce accidents.

As for me living in harmony with the world without causing needless destruction and enjoying life, well, yes I guess I am. I grow cacti and various other plants in my garden to keep me in touch with nature and to help me keep focused with my own goals and such. I try to avoid causing needless destruction by doing my bit wherever I can - simple things like only leaving a few footprints on the face of the earth - not going through and pulling the place to bits just because I feel like it. And enjoying life - I certainly give it my best - at times it can be hard due to the fact that we seem to be in a selfish society which is spoiling the planet because we need things like cosmetics and other seemingly somewhat wasteful things. but for the most part - I am a very happy person to be alive in such a beautiful world surrounded by so many wonderful things - I guess the tricky part is focusing on the beauty and not the ugly...

OK, my ranting mood has passed - sorry for that folks I probably dont make much sense - if so, please ignore me or give me one of these ones: haha!

Life is sweet - just look around (or at least in between the bad parts! )

[ENtiTY]

The point I'm trying to make is that from when we are born our lives revolve around being trained to be able to be part of the system. There is no other option. Although there are alot of benefits from this which is not a bad thing as things could me much worse, there are in my opinion to many strings attached to make it a good thing.

Sure houses are easy enough to buy but that amount of debt sitting on your shoulders is something that I am not comfortable with. There are so many things I would like to do and see but can't if I have to focus my energies into paying for the place I rest my head at night. A society with all the bells and whistles looks nice and shiney but the constant strain to hold onto them I find very draining. It makes me long for a simpler life. Sure this kind of life would be harsher but at the same time healthier and more fullfilling.

[Ace]

I'm hearing ya Harry - there is a lot behind the scenes to make things harder - but I guess its not all bad - I mean, what if everyone had a 3 bedroom house with central heating/cooling, a nice car in the garage, a huge tv, a large family, etc - it wouldnt take long for the resources to dwindle and eventually (much faster, no doubt) disappear. I guess things are pretty much in harmony, even though from our current view points they seem somewhat off balance and wrong.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Harrys got it right when it comes to freedom in society. we are kind of bread like cattle, we get born, go to school and learn what we are told, leave school and work, reproduce and repeat for the rest of our lives to maintain a social "standard". thus being locked in the system, i very much agree with that. But that said, during the ride of life one can open their own eyes amd see their own freedoms, with risk ( i guess that aint real freedom) but the choice (freedom) is their.

[nabraxas]

wow, this topics got going...

first ov all i suppose we have to decide what we mean by "freedom".

generally people consider "freedom" to be their "rights". Like to "free speach" or the "right to vote" or the "right to own a gun" &, not to forget, the "right to live in dignity—free of fear, coercion, violence and discrimination."

On the whole, modern western democracies tend to preserve these freedoms quite well in their own countries. Unfortunately living in one of the most privileged societies in the world many of the "freedoms" we enjoy come directly from the exploitation ov workers in less privilaged societies & from trading w/nations who exploit their citizens "freedom". rich nations remain rich only as long as they can keep other nations poorer.

& then there's the poor old ecosystem, exploited to fuck as a resource in a system that continues to push growth as the main goal in a time ov dwindling resources.

we used to be "free" to have swimming pools in our yards, throw water around......now law says we've lost that right, but laws to limit industrial use would impinge too much on the freedom ov the company to to business.

but that's all politics....when it comes down to it the "right to shelter" (our constitution drawing on the International Convention on Economic Social and Cultural Rights identifies housing as a human right), is where "they've got you by the balls" & how most become "wage slaves".

But stone walls do not a prison make, being tied to a house or a job is no reason to lose your identity or individuality. Freedom, most likely, is a state ov mind.

[DocAzz]

Its easier for the 'everyday joe' to buy a house in our society than probably any other time in history... do you think working for 20 years is an unreasonable amount of time to pay off a house and land?

OK, here is another question: Should the basic necessities of life come at a basic cost?

[chilli]

wow, this topics got going...

first ov all i suppose we have to decide what we mean by "freedom".

generally people consider "freedom" to be their "rights". Like to "free speach" or the "right to vote" or the "right to own a gun" &, not to forget, the "right to live in dignity—free of fear, coercion, violence and discrimination."

On the whole, modern western democracies tend to preserve these freedoms quite well in their own countries. Unfortunately living in one of the most privileged societies in the world many of the "freedoms" we enjoy come directly from the exploitation ov workers in less privilaged societies & from trading w/nations who exploit their citizens "freedom". rich nations remain rich only as long as they can keep other nations poorer.

& then there's the poor old ecosystem, exploited to fuck as a resource in a system that continues to push growth as the main goal in a time ov dwindling resources.

we used to be "free" to have swimming pools in our yards, throw water around......now law says we've lost that right, but laws to limit industrial use would impinge too much on the freedom ov the company to to business.

but that's all politics....when it comes down to it the "right to shelter" (our constitution drawing on the International Convention on Economic Social and Cultural Rights identifies housing as a human right), is where "they've got you by the balls" & how most become "wage slaves".

But stone walls do not a prison make, being tied to a house or a job is no reason to lose your identity or individuality. Freedom, most likely, is a state ov mind.

I thoroughly agree with what nabraxas has said here, it was what I was working towards... most of us have been born into one of the most privileged societies at one of the most privileged times in history, and so it is easy for us to insist on what we consider to be our rights, all the while not realizing the impact that our lifestyles are having on the rest of the world's people and ecologies.

I don't mind that this has gone off topic because I'd like to go into this subject in a bit more depth, and it sounds like others would as well. In the interests of tidiness though, and in case anyone else wants to contribute to the original topic, I'm starting another thread called "rights and responsibilities: does the world owe us anything?"

[chilli]

Oops

Edited April 11, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[Kenny Blister]

FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genetically mutilate their daughters, they do not behave like any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.

Knob. 'Our' modern barbarism is far more acceptable. Pedophilia, rape, school shootings, serial killings, genocide.

Let he who is without sin cast the first statues of the former rogues turned folk heroes that your forefathers hung

[ThunderIdeal]

(the other issues raised have been taken up in a new thread)

not to mention that for more than two centuries now the province of white men has been to take advantage of people who lack their technological or political sophistication. look at the last 300 years and develop an "average" picture of the endeavours of white man, i'm pretty sure the picture in your mind will be pretty gruesome.

i'm not a big fan of middle eastern culture, but why are they being painted as the worst people in the world right now? nations in general are dastardly things, it doesn't just apply to the middle east. as somebody already mentioned, europeans were fucking cavemen in comparison to the middle eastern people until they took home some of their culture during the crusades. Frank Miller, you're speaking into a microphone that would never have been invented without middle eastern culture... and just how do they 'genetically mutilate' their daughters? female circumcision is an abomination that is not limited to the middle east nor is it "the norm" there. three thousand of your neighbours were killed, this number pales into insignificance. how about a little recognition for the wholesale destruction that YOUR country has been dishing out for half a century. your country does not intend to stop by the look of things either. Frank Miller you are a retarded peice of shit, and watching 300 proves it. i used a pirate copy by the way.

[The Dude]

(the other issues raised have been taken up in a new thread)

not to mention that for more than two centuries now the province of white men has been to take advantage of people who lack their technological or political sophistication. look at the last 300 years and develop an "average" picture of the endeavours of white man, i'm pretty sure the picture in your mind will be pretty gruesome.

i'm not a big fan of middle eastern culture, but why are they being painted as the worst people in the world right now? nations in general are dastardly things, it doesn't just apply to the middle east. as somebody already mentioned, europeans were fucking cavemen in comparison to the middle eastern people until they took home some of their culture during the crusades. Frank Miller, you're speaking into a microphone that would never have been invented without middle eastern culture... and just how do they 'genetically mutilate' their daughters? female circumcision is an abomination that is not limited to the middle east nor is it "the norm" there. three thousand of your neighbours were killed, this number pales into insignificance. how about a little recognition for the wholesale destruction that YOUR country has been dishing out for half a century. your country does not intend to stop by the look of things either. Frank Miller you are a retarded peice of shit, and watching 300 proves it. i used a pirate copy by the way.

Was it artfully done? I mean I can appreciate a propaganda piece if it looks beautiful, the previews for that movie made violence look beautiful.. ala tarantino very stylised. If its anything like Sin City then it may even be great, provided i dont feel the need to vomit at any point, considering i now know what this movie is trying to communicate.

[ThunderIdeal]

it is an excellent bloke film. it is virtually IDENTICAL to the movie braveheart. the slashfests looked very CGish to me, which reduced the effect of "enemy runs in, waits near hero, then throws himself back when struck"

just don't consider it any kind of a history lesson.