the lasting benifit of the use of psychedelics in modern society

[paradox]

well, i just sort of felt like bringing something up to discuss, and this has been on my mind lately. i'm sure it's been discussed before, probably at length, so if people are over it just let me know, but here we go:

i want to get peoples HONEST opinion on the the way they feel that the use of psychedelics has helped their foaf's in the spiritual advancement of their consciousness (or whatever you want to call it).

My foaf personally feels that psychedelics were a pretty strong catalyst in the evolution of his own spiritual...(stuff, you know what i mean!). my foaf was pretty predisposed to somewhat similar ways of seeing and experiencing things, but he feels that psychedelics difinitely propelled him much deeper into....(stuff, you know what i mean, i think). he feels they certainly helped him to gain much deeper understanding of, what he deems to be the infinite nature of the universe and the truth pertaining to his own being as experienced from moment to moment, etc etc

In the last few years my foaf has taken a break from using strong psychedelics as he has not felt the need to use them.

instead he has focused more on exploring his consciousness and the nature of existence, using pretty much only what he has within himself, and has learned a number of meditation techniques which he has found to be incredible tools for exploring the nature of the mind and matter of his "self" and therefore the nature of the universe etc etc.

i've just sort of been thinking about it lately, as my foaf has just recently started once again to explore the psychedelic state using quite high doses of psilocybin. after such a break he feels it afforded him a perspective on the experience which he hasn't had before! he feels as though his meditation practices have helped him immensely in using the experience positively and specifically by helping him to stay equanimous during some profound confrontations of his ego with infinity etc and observe objectively all that he experiences.

but at the same time he feels that, the experiences he has recently had aren't as eye opening as they once were, and that the realms he is experiencing are sort of common knowledge to him now (to some extent anyway), and that to venture deep into them using a substance is sort of pointless except for something fun to do, which which would certainly subtract from it's use as a spiritual tool.

anyway i've just watched part of a 1995 interview with timothy leary on youtube, and it just sort of got me thinking about this again, as he just seemed to be really tripped out, if you know what i mean, sort of the way you would expect a person who had taken too much acid in their life, to be. he just sort of couldn't articulate himself properly, like his thoughts and everything in his mind was too complex and jumbled up to be able to be expressed. it's the way my foaf sometimes feels he can be some of the time. not so much nowa days but particularly when he was doing alot of acid!

obviously i realise that psychedelics are only useful and benificial if you use them with respect and knowledge etc but i just wanted to get other peoples perspectives on it. particularly on the use of psychedelics throughout your life as a tool of spirtual exploration.

i don't want to end up when i'm older, totally tripped out and unable to articulate myself properly (i guess timothy leary was always pretty tripped out and he wasn't really that bad in the interview, i just recognised a part of my own experience of tripped outness and innability to articulate things in him which i don't like seeing in myself.

i've also been reading and listening to alot of terence mckenna lately and i certainly respect him very much and think he had an incredible mind, it seems terence mckenna advocated psychedelics as a sole... spiritual path if you will. while i do have alot of respect for him, and i feel he had an incredible intellect and he seemed to have made many leaps of intellectual understanding about the self and the universe, he didn't strike me as a particularly enlightened person, nor an unhappy person, it's just that i don't know if all those years of psychedelic exploration led him too much further towards a state of enlightenment (if you will!) in terms of inner peace, though it seems to have been very beneficial for him. it certainly didn't affect his ability to articulate himself !

i definately feel that use of psychedelics on their own, without exploring my inner reality deeply and regularlywithout them would not be sufficient for me as a sole means to understanding myself.

what makes me think about these sorts of things is, when i see people i know who have practiced for example: vipassana meditation for a number of years, or other practices which i believe are extremely credible, many of them just have an incredible glow about them and an amazing twinkle of inner peace and joy in their eyes, and my own experiences with vipassana have been utterly incredible. i have had very extreme experiences while doing vipassana, which i would certainly discribe as being utterly, profoundly psychedelic but completely different from anything else. i've realised that the eternal truth is certainly inside us and that we probably don't need psychedelics in the end, but i am still extermely fascinated by them and passionate about plants.

my foaf doesn't feel that he has had enough experience in these realms recently to make any conclusions about these things, and he feels like they are certainly a part of his path and wants them to be in the future but he doesn't want to undermine the integrity and truth of his path by using something which he doesn't need in the name of spirituality. and he doesn't want to end up like timothy leary (i guess he wasn't that bad).

i'm sick of writing now, so if anyone wants to comment?

[Torsten]

my foaf look forward to discussing this at some length tomozzle.

why do you have to quote a whole page of text to add a single [rather pointless] line?

have some consideration for others reading this. I've asked you to stop doing this privately, but it doesn't seem to sink in.

[marsha]

why do you have to quote a whole page of text to add a single [rather pointless] line?

have some consideration for others reading this. I've asked you to stop doing this privately, but it doesn't seem to sink in.

hmm this needs to be discussed further

[XipeTotec]

why do you have to quote a whole page of text to add a single [rather pointless] line?

have some consideration for others reading this. I've asked you to stop doing this privately, but it doesn't seem to sink in.

you actually havnt asked me privately not to do this torsten... you may have mistaken me for someone else(i hope so... or else you would just be lying outright )... please don't suggest that I am inconsiderate, as it was a mistake... due to the fact that I am undergoing some spiritual advancement. maybe you should try, u may loosen up peace love and mung beans, angry torsten!!

Edited March 19, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[DocAzz]

I've had next to no experience with any form of meditation. During my time spent learning martial arts, or any other time we were told to meditate, I was always restless. I'd wonder what everyone else was thinking about. I'd look around the room. Anything but meditate. I just didn't know how.... I still don't.

I have this instinctual feeling that all the work I need to do on myself can be done by myself. I just don't know how.

With the limited experience I've had with various psychedelics, I feel as though pathways have been opened in the space of seconds that would have taken months of pondering and searching. They are a "short-cut," if you will.

I have had revelations about my childhood, and who I am now. They have stuck with me still. I am living differently now - not much differently, to be fair, but it is still a change. Not a day goes by since that I don't think about it.

My two cents...

[DocAzz]

you actually havnt asked me privately not to do this torsten... you may have mistaken me for someone else(i hope so... or else you would just be lying outright )... please don't suggest that I am inconsiderate, as it was a mistake... due to the fact that I am undergoing some spiritual advancement. maybe you should try, u may loosen up peace love and mung beans, angry torsten!!

Thats a bit of a smart-arsed reply.

Torsten is right, its a bit rude... it doesn't bother me as much, as I just think "ahhh the silly knob doesn't know how to quote yet."

I think whether Torsten has asked you privately or not isn't really the issue.

You don't have to be a smart-arse about it, and ffs... have some consideration for others.

[Torsten]

this request was sent the day before you got your 'requested and deserved' warning. Maybe you got too anrgy and deleted both?

PM# 30057

hey shroomy, can you please consider only using the quote function when it is actually needed. you often make a post directly under the one you are replying to, yet you almost always quote the whole lot. usually the quote is FAR larger than your post which makes for lots of pointless scrolling. this is not a reprimand - just a polite request in everyone's interest [including your own].
thanks, T

and paradox - sorry for the highjack. I can just see this topic being extremely long to scroll through if shroomy starts getting active in it.

shroomy - if you want to keep arguing about this then start a new thread or pm me.

[Auxin]

Many psychonauts think that LSD and mushrooms by themselves are enough to cause enlightenment, this is not the case and as you observed after years of taking large amounts many of them have trouble articulating themselves and some even when sober continuously see purple wombats line dancing on police cars. Mckenna, I believe, is more comprehensible because while in his younger years he went through periods of doing psychadelics every week he stated repeatedly that in his last few decades he really only took psychadelics a few times a year and he routinely meditated to keep his mind clear and focused and train it to 'sit down, shut up, and listen'

My view is psychadelics arent the path themselves but rather a handy tool to break down walls of delusion, stir up the minds creativity, and of course other uses such as breaking addictions when those are needed or talking to god(s) for the theistic folk.

During my time spent learning martial arts, or any other time we were told to meditate, I was always restless. I'd wonder what everyone else was thinking about. I'd look around the room. Anything but meditate. I just didn't know how.... I still don't.

Your meditation instructor made a classic mistake. Students are supposed to be told that the beginners mind is naturally restless and wandering. If your mind seemed to get more chaotic while trying to meditate thats a sign that you were probably doing it right! It signifies that you were developing concentration and mindfulness enough to see the restlessness we generally ignore or block out. If you meditate for 5 minutes and only manage a clear focus on the breath for a total of 20 seconds thats fine, the mind instinctively looks for input and trying to limit the mind to a 2 square centimeter patch of skin under the nose really annoys the hell out of it in the beginning and before you know it your brain starts replaying the footy match or planning dinner

[XipeTotec]

g

Edited March 19, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[paradox]

If your mind seemed to get more chaotic while trying to meditate thats a sign that you were probably doing it right! It signifies that you were developing concentration and mindfulness enough to see the restlessness we generally ignore or block out.

i agree! many people get very frustrated when they are new to meditation, not just because they don't like sitting still, but because they think they need to do be doing something and don't know what it is! meditation (at least in the forms i have experience with) is not about doing anything in particular, but merely observing! at first it's nothing profound, you just watch! observe what is!

and if your mind is wandering all over the place, you just keep watching it. perhaps you have a specific centre of focus, like the breath. so you just observe the breath. perhaps you would just observe the sensation of your breath touching your nostril's, you just keep on observing and when your mind wanders you just keep on observing. watch your mind wandering and observe all the ways your mind distracts you, observe just how crazy your mind is, with all it's pointless and irrelevant thoughts and distractions. just keep observing and keep bringing your awareness back to your breath. don't get frustrated when your mind wanders. let your thoughts be there, just observe, and keep bringing your awareness back to the breath. as soon as you realise you're awareness has wandered just bring it back. in this way, you start to understand the way the mind works, you start to understand just how crazy our minds are. keep persevering with patience and it becomes much easier and much more clear. this is just a starting point, but in this way, you sharpen your awareness. the longer you can maintain your awareness on your center of focus (breath) then the sharper you know your mind is becoming and the sharper your mind becomes the easier it is to go deeper into the awareness of your own inner universe.

My view is psychadelics arent the path themselves but rather a handy tool to break down walls of delusion, stir up the minds creativity, and of course other uses such as breaking addictions when those are needed or talking to god(s) for the theistic folk.

i totally agree! one thing i think psychedelics can be particularly helpful for (if used properly) is helping to break negative habits of the mind, as they can give you an utterly new perspective on they way in which your mind works and mundane, everyday habits of the mind can be observed objectively, and often they seem utterly ridiculous and if that awareness can be integrated properly into everyday life it can help you drop the habit.

i've found that pot can be helpful if you smoke it very occasionally. for instance, if you have been pondering something for a long time and it's starting to drive you nuts and your thoughts are stuck in a rut (so to speak) then smoking a joint can give you a perspective on the situation that you haven't previously had. it can be refreshing! you just need to know how to intergrate it and not come to rely on smoking pot all the time. the same is true if you smoke pot all the time, taking a break and being sober can give you a new perspective on a problem.

i've gotta do shit now, but i'll be back!

[Fenris]

anyway i've just watched part of a 1995 interview with timothy leary on youtube, and it just sort of got me thinking about this again, as he just seemed to be really tripped out, if you know what i mean, sort of the way you would expect a person who had taken too much acid in their life, to be. he just sort of couldn't articulate himself properly, like his thoughts and everything in his mind was too complex and jumbled up to be able to be expressed. it's the way my foaf sometimes feels he can be some of the time. not so much nowa days but particularly when he was doing alot of acid!

Ive never been that interested in Timothy Leary, I don't think he did LSD or psychedelics any favours, and seemed to approach it from a rather egotistical point of view. I wouldn't worry too much about him being really tripped out as I don't believe he approached it in the right spirit.

Terrence McKenna on the other hand had the most incredible ability to talk for hours on convoluted difficult topics, coherently precisely and with passion. Obviously someone who didn't let his ego get in the way of his spiritual enlightenment.

Check out some of his lectures on youtube.

[paradox]

i hope i didn't sound like i was dis'n terence mckenna, i love the guy, i was just trying to find a comparison with the use of psychedelics & the use of meditation (without psychedelics). terence probably was a bad choice, as i actually reckon he was an amazing guy. my point i was sort of trying to make was, that so many people i know who practice certain forms of meditation & nothing else, are visiably and utterly glowing with inner peace, happiness and awareness, while terence mckenna was certainly an incredible guy, i don't know if i can detect and similar sense of inner peace in him, from all his years of psychedelic use. i beleive terence was more advanced intellectually, though i really shouldn't comment cause i don't know enough about him, i just wanted to present some sort of comparison!

looking back over this, i still don't know if my comments about terence mckenna have any validity at all, i hope you understand what i was trying to communicate!

[paradox]

if you havn't read a book called zig zag zen: buddhism & psychedelics, then you should! it is a collection of essays and interviews by many prominent people from the global psychedelic & buddhist community, all offering diverse perspectives on the subject, as being full of psychedelic art, selected by alex grey.

[chilli]

If I tripped all the time I'm pretty sure I'd turn into a fruitloop like all the people I know who trip all the time.