woman dies after ecstasy "overdose"

[Torsten]

I don't know if its a case of ravers not wanting to take PMA

PMA is popular in some parts of australia - in particular adelaide. However in other parts most ravers shy away from it because of it's well known toxic effects.

PMA can be used quite successfully at low doses on its own.

Actually, PMA at low doses does very little. It is merely a stimulant with no 'niceness' to it. The euphoria doesn't set in until the dose increases. In fact 100mg of PMA isn't anything special at all, which is where the problem arises. Most people who get 80mg of PMA will quickly seek out the next dose. It is not until the second dose hits that PMA really brings out it's sparkle. This is because the dopamine release of PMA is dose dependent and does not trigger until a certain plasma level has been reached. It is a fantastic drug at these higher levels. The danger is though that PMA is about 10 times a neurotoxic as MDMA. So, by the time you have about 160-200mg in your system you are already tempting fate. ie, a nice dose of PMA will have the toxicity of about 8 good MDMA pills!!

Problem is, it also acts as a potent MAO inhibitor.

Who says? I think you are getting para-methoxy-amphetamine confused with phorbol 12-myristate13-acetate, both of which use PMA in the literature.

PMA [as in 4-MA] was not found to have any significant effect on MAO.

This means serious repercussions when taking other substances with it, or if part of a cocktail.

No, PMA's problems stem from the way it overheats the brain.

So people get into trouble by taking more than one, or supplementing latter with another amphetamine when they believe they are coming down.

yeah, this is the actual problem. While this is also a problem with MDMA, at least with MDMA [at single doses] you have rather low toxicity, low overheating potential and [generally] low desire to redose within a couple of hours. With PMA you have an almost instant desire to redose as there is no dopaminergic rush at single doses.

Ther eis also quite obviously a problem with combining PMA and MDMA. Most PMA deaths both here and overseas are in fact a combination of the two. Very few deaths are due to PMA alone, and when they are it is usually after at least 2 doses.

There is another thing to consider. PMMA has hit the scene at times as it is easier to make in higher yields. This substance is even more insidious as a single dose does next to nothing other than speeding up heartbeat and respiration. The second dose feels good, but still not quite there. The third dose is better, but will still not quite reach the dopamine potential of PMA.

It is quite easy for an individual to take 3 doses of PMMA [or a really high dose PMMA pill] before being satisfied. The toxicity of PMMA is however the same as for PMA, so you are dealing with much higher doses for the same effect, while toxicity is now 12 times as high as taking a standard MDMA pill.

PMA shouldn't be demonized either when the problem is the lack of pill testing availability and education. Educated people can then make an educated choice.

The only educated choice re PMA is to not take it. If you have a substance that is less pleasant than MDMA, but [dose for dose] 8 times as toxic, then it doesn't take a lot of brains to work out which should be avoided. Given the high incidence of PMA deaths [especially in comparison to MDMA deaths and respective avalability] it is simply stupid to take PMA. If ravers were honestly educated about the relative toxicities of these substances and pill testing was made available then I doubt anyone would bother with PMA. At the very least we would not see so many first timers or single pill deaths.

[Conan Troutman]

predosing with amphetamines and PMA doesnt mix

and will cause your brain to go into meltdown, a FOAF knows well.

he heard the pill probably contained mdxx not tested though

Edited February 23, 2007 by Conan Troutman

[AndyAmine.]

Carr shut down the Ravesafe program at the time even though it was the only rave drug education group in operation.

Rave safe was shutdown in 95? (the year of anna's death)

Im guessing they must have got up and running again shortly after because I was working for them around 98', in Melbourne at least.

Sure, public pill testing stations arent available and that is rediculous but personal pill testing kits are available all over the place and for quite a cheap price, so I cant understand why anyone would risk eating an unidentified substance without using one.

I was doing this as a standard practise back in the mid to late 90's, so why anyone wouldnt be doing it now when the kits are available everywhere and for much less boggles the mind...

[Torsten]

Rave safe was shutdown in 95? (the year of anna's death)

yes, it was shut down by Carr a few days/weeks after Anna's death. Most raves moved to canberra in that time and Ravesafe operated out of there for a while. Ravesafe received no government funding at that time.

Im guessing they must have got up and running again shortly after because I was working for them around 98', in Melbourne at least.

The coroner was clear in his report that Anna's death was due to her own stupidity and that of her friends. Anna would not have been in any danger if she had not drunk excessive amounts of water. She was en experiences pill taker and knew to drink water, but she did not know that drinking too much could be just as bad as drinking too little. But even at the point where she passed out she was not in any danger of dying had she been taken to hospital straight away. Essentially Anna died beccause her friends were too scared to call an ambulance.

The coroner also recommended that the state government fund a peer based information organisation. Carr did a 180 and reinstated Ravesafe as the official organisation.

Sure, public pill testing stations arent available and that is rediculous but personal pill testing kits are available all over the place and for quite a cheap price, so I cant understand why anyone would risk eating an unidentified substance without using one.

PMA is hard to test for and virtually impossible if the pill also contains at least 30% MD(M)A.

Kits are not cheap in oz and are prohibited in the mail, which seriously hampers distribution. Overseas kits are sold by non profit organisations like ravesafe, which means the retail cost is low. This doesn't happen in oz.

[foolsbreath]

Problem is, it also acts as a potent MAO inhibitor.

Who says? I think you are getting para-methoxy-amphetamine confused with phorbol 12-myristate13-acetate, both of which use PMA in the literature.

PMA [as in 4-MA]was not found to have any significant effect on MAO.

PMA as a maoi

I have seen other papers with more numbers in relation to the inhibition and duration, which is short. From what I've heard, it sure feels like there is strong potentiation of mdxx in conjunction with pma. The following papers show what you mean by dose dependent T, although I think some find the lower doses maybe good for sitting at home, more of a stoned intoxication.

some more info on effects in terms of neurochemicals released for those interested

pma and neurochemistry

pma neurochemistry

[Torsten]

PMA as a maoi/

very interesting. I seem to remember other experiments discounting MAO inhibition. But then again, I haven't looked at PMA since the mid 90's. The reference you cite is from 1983 though, so I wonder if the results were confirmed.

I have seen other papers with more numbers in relation to the inhibition and duration, which is short.

That paper itself puts the value below 2 other substances the tested, but not havign access to the full text means the actual data is not accessible to me.

From what I've heard, it sure feels like there is strong potentiation of mdxx in conjunction with pma.

I've had MDMA while fully MAO inhibited via harmaline and found the effect to only be about 5-10 times as strong. I can't see PMA having such comprehensive MAO inhibition though.

The following papers show what you mean by dose dependent T, although I think some find the lower doses maybe good for sitting at home, more of a stoned intoxication.

yeah, that's what PMMA is like too.

[slippery]

i heard her brothers being interviewed on a radio station.. and have been listening to the various reports... from i have heard.. she took the pills with mates, she didn't die til later that night they beleive that it was a negative reaction(like allergic) to something in the pill.

[Kenny Blister]

Reactionary responses to her death?

Mardi Gras party 'shut by police'

By staff writers, The Australian

February 25, 2007

AN annual party connected to the Sydney Mardi Gras has been shut due to drug offences after a police raid, according to witnesses.

Up to 40 police officers and sniffer dogs entered Azure V, formerly known as the Harbour Party, at the Royal Botanic Gardens at about 9.30pm (AEDT), said a witness at the event.

The event was closed due to drug offences, he said.

About 5000 people were expected to attend Azure V, "the best gay and lesbian party in the Southern Hemisphere", promoters iRIS Group Productions said on their website.

The reported closure comes two days after drug victim Annabel Catt was laid to rest at a service in Sydney.

The 20-year-old dance teacher died on February 18 after taking an ecstasy tablet at the Good Vibrations music festival.

Drug overdoses spark call for dance festival end

Police will ask for the annual Akasha dance festival near Maffra in Gippsland, in south-east Victoria, to be shut down after a string of drug charges and two overdoses on the weekend.

Sniffer dogs detected 27 people using cannabis, ecstasy and MDMA, a liquid form of ecstasy, at the festival.

Police were called in to help ambulance officers restrain a man who had overdosed on a cocktail of drugs including MDMA, speed and acid.

Senior Constable Chris Gordon says the arrest figures would have been much higher if more police had attended.

"We've got the drug bus from the drug and alcohol section today and once that operation is finished this afternoon we'll be sitting down with the Superintendent and the Inspector down here putting some sort of submission to the local council whether a planning permit is granted next year for the festival," he said.

Found here and here

Edited February 26, 2007 by Kenny Blister

[Torsten]

cool, the dance scene is going underground again. It was always more fun that way.

[goldfinger]

a foaf of mine knows this girl, and apparently he tells me it was her first time.. And they said the pill had amphetamines in it and she had an allergic reaction of some sort. she was apparently fine all day and through the night. Wasnt until the morning and they got back from good vibes that she started having probs. Well thats what i was told anyways..

Dont know how true it is...

[Torsten]

the stories seem to suggest she had an allergic reaction to the drug. that doesn't make much sense if she was fine for most of it.

it just seems too much of a coincidence that this was once again PMA.

[DocAzz]

I dunno... yer probly right Torsten.

I heard rumours, and only rumours, this isn't inside information I'm trying to cover up it is from someone in the know, but he said its mere speculation at the moment, as its too soon to really tell.

It seems it is PMA, and its due to a number of large busts that have happened around sydney over the last couple of months. There was a large shipment of chem-MDMA busted in Castle Hill right after xmas.

The advice I got, and I'm passing on, is this:

If you take pills, and live in sydney - don't. Not for a while anyway. People will be cutting them with anything they can right now, as there is demand and no supply. So people are just jumping into it with whatever they have. There will probly be a fair amount of K pills going around, but nothing is certain what people will be putting in them.

I know of a guy the last time something like this happened. He thought he'd make a quick buck buying in bulk, crushing them all down, adding GLASS for filler, and re-pressing them. He's no longer with us. When there is a quick buck to be made, people will do anything to make it. It always ends up being the person with the least morals that will step forward too.

There is a massive demand for pills now too. Not a week goes by now that I don't hear about people getting asked for, literally, hundreds of them. Yet the prices aren't really going up - which suggests only one thing.... people are making up numbers some other way.

So yeh - stay away from them for a while.

I don't touch them anyway, MDMA does nothing for me. So I'm good

[nabraxas]

^ there's just so much misinformation in that last post i wouldn't know where to start, or how to respond w/out sounding accusatory, so i'll leave it at that...

[apothecary]

I can assure you nabraxas, there is no issues on the supply or demand fronts in Sydney, and prices have remained static for at least two years now with only +/- $5 fluctuations.

The cops have not put a dent in the supply chain in any meaningful way, people are still getting high purity, effective and quality pills for the same price as always.

[DocAzz]

^ there's just so much misinformation in that last post i wouldn't know where to start, or how to respond w/out sounding accusatory, so i'll leave it at that...

What ever happened to reading the start of a post?

you know - the bit about it being hearsay...?

What else is misinformation? The fella cutting with glass? I know the guy that "took care of" that situation. Not a nice guy. You'll see him in Sefton driving an RX-7 with a clear bonnet showing off his engine bay, and its gold trim.

What about the large bust in Castle Hill? Daily Telegraph reckons it was the largest seizure of illegal drugs in our history. I don't put too much stock in the Daily Telegraph, but it happened right around the corner from here.

It seems like sounding accusatory was the least of your worries. Its a pretty weak way to put down someones post without actually saying anything else. Logic dictates that if you don't know how to start a post, or respond to one, then you just don't post. Otherwise these boards would be in a different shape than they are now.

Apo - You're lucky then. I've got close mates that DJ all over the city (incl Home) and they're all talking about it....

[AndyAmine.]

GLASS?

man, I havent heard that one in a long time but it was speed not pills... Im not saying your lying, people do stupid shit but...

I used to hear this quite a bit when I was in my early teens, why would someone go to the trouble of grinding down lightbulbs or somehting when they could jst use some salt, or panadol or something?

[DocAzz]

GLASS?

man, I havent heard that one in a long time but it was speed not pills... Im not saying your lying, people do stupid shit but...

I used to hear this quite a bit when I was in my early teens, why would someone go to the trouble of grinding down lightbulbs or somehting when they could jst use some salt, or panadol or something?

He got bashed to death in his own bedroom - while his parents were downstairs.

They were none the wiser, until they went up to get him for dinner, as the music was cranked.

Yeh thats the logical thing to do - but these guys have microwaved their brain on high. They don't follow logical patterns. I don't think anyone deserves death (paedophiles maybe) but the plus side to this is that only one other person got hurt: the guy sampling the tester.

That was one of the worst days of my life... sitting around this guy with my mates who idolised him, hearing this the next day. Those ex-friends have now gone down similar paths, and I want nothing to do with them.

[nabraxas]

ok then

for a start sydney is not a separate market to the rest ov the east coast. there's no shortage in Vic, SA or QSLD so there wont be a shortage in Sydney.

People will be cutting them with anything they can right now

yeah all the dealers i kn ow have pill presses so they can cut there pills w/anything they want & repress them again.

There will probly be a fair amount of K pills going around

as mentioned above & as commonly known K has all but disappeared from the Aus. scene, cutting pills w/K would, if anything, make them more expensive.

but nothing is certain what people will be putting in them.

---more scaremongering, ever heard ov www.pillreports.com?

as Andy said, why bother grinding up glass when flour would be cheaper & safer? why bother cutting pills at all, IF there really was a shortage smart dealers would just put there prices up not go to all the bother ov cutting pills w/glass & loosing customers.

When there is a quick buck to be made, people will do anything to make it.

----scaremongering

Yet the prices aren't really going up - which suggests only one thing.... people are making up numbers some other way.

--duh, no, it suggests there is no shortage.

So yeh - stay away from them for a while.

----scaremongering.

Logic dictates that if you don't know what you're talking about & are just spouting scaremongering heresay you may end up looking pretty silly.

happy now?

[goldfinger]

hahhah

god this stuff makes good reading

true or not keep it coming, as far as a shortage you must be kidding. A foaf has never seen so much of this stuff around as at the moment. and the prices have never been cheaper in the past 2 years prices have been dropping he says hes never seen an increase.

anyway just my 2 cents all heresay though

[DocAzz]

You're a real fuckin nice guy, aren't ya?

I thought I was doing the right thing passing on a message, trying to help people out, and a cunt like you with nothing better to do has to try and put me down. Just cos you disagree....

a- I know three people with pill presses.

b- shit load of K going around here... dunno who you talk to. I'd suggest you get out a little more, and stop listening to one source.

c- you're trying to tell me that there are no devious practices in the drug industry? You are seriously misguided. Again, get out more. Go witness some real life. I know of people being shot over drugs, people being stabbed over drugs, and people getting their fucking hands cut off over drugs.

Call it scaremongering if it makes you feel better in your sheltered life.

Just remember, being an end-user puts you on the bottom of the food chain.

[DocAzz]

hahhah

god this stuff makes good reading

true or not keep it coming, as far as a shortage you must be kidding. A foaf has never seen so much of this stuff around as at the moment. and the prices have never been cheaper in the past 2 years prices have been dropping he says hes never seen an increase.

anyway just my 2 cents all heresay though

Never said there was a shortage.... They're as low as $6 each (per 100) but no one, with repute, wants to touch them. Its great when you've got access to an HPLC - you actually get a definate reading of quality. ;)

[Torsten]

there is quite a bit of law activity covering sydney, byron and the gold coast, with a couple of hundred raids in the last 3 months, but this would only affect one of the many many import and production networks. yeah, it might affect some israeli DJ's, but I doubt that anyone else would even feel a dip in supply. Prices have held steady on the retail side, but the information from some recents busts is that large scale sales have actually dropped a few bucks in the last 3 years. If anything, pill prices are going down.

There would be fuck all mdma actually made in oz still. Most of it [by quantity, not by source] would be imported these days. So, for the most part we rely on the availability overseas and the incompetence of our local customs. Pill presses are now severely restricted in several states and simply owning one without license can land you in jail for manufacturing [even if there are no drugs found with the press]. This means that presses are not very common and certainly no one would bother grinding up pills and repressing them. However, what they might do is if they have a press, buy some mdma from overseas, then make some PMA locally and press them together. It would be simply stupid to make the pill less attractive by adding glass or anything else that is nasty. I mean, at the level above consumer the dealers still have to be able to sell their product all the way down the line. Why would they go back and buy more glass? Just think about it. The glass myth has been around for many years and it was bollocks then and is bollocks now.

Ah yeah, and someone who talks about pressing pills usually isn't. Sorry Azz, but I think nabraxas is spot on in most respects.

[Torsten]

azz, your making a tool of yourself. go and chill out and come back later. even IF some of the stuff in your post is of substance, you kinda killed it with a load of the crap us older folks have heard every few years and it' always turns out to be scaremongering or simply ill informed hype.

[Anodyne]

Ive heard & im sure most of us have that "E's" are often cocktails with drugs like cocaine & heroin in them but this would not make sense since these are expensive drugs and people making pills are in it for money.

You're right, it makes no sense, and only (very rare) complete idiots would waste their money putting the tiny (& probably orally-inactive) amounts of these expensive drugs into their pills. I remember researching this a few years back - only a few pills had been found to contain (inactive) amounts of cocaine; only 1 pill had been found with heroin - it did NOT contain MDMA (only paracetamol & zoloft, from memory), and because of that + it's hand-pressed appearance, the testers concluded that it had probaly been submitted for the sole purpose of getting a "smacky pill" on record on the testing site.

The most common ingredients in "ecstasy pills" were MDMA & other Mxxx's (MDA, MDEA, MBDB, etc), followed by amphetamines, caffeine, & pseudo/ephedrine. Most pills containing one of these stimulants also contained an Mxxx. Most pills which had a Mxxx, only had one Mxxx. The most common other adulterants were OTC products - aspirin, paracetamol, various cough-medicine-type drugs, etc. A very few also had antidepressants (primarily SSRIs from memory) or LSD, but as these were only qualitative, not quantitative tests, it could well have been an inactive amount. And, of course, a few were PMA.

[Torsten]

Great presentation on the 7.30 report tonite. The gist of the story is 'why does it take 3 months for drugs to be tested and warnings released?'

I think the ABC and the people involved should be commended for the approach they are taking to the topic. It is ridiculous that drug analysis takes 3 months while it can be done easily in 24 hours - or even 30 minutes if needed. There is so much money being thrown at customs and the police that they should be able to afford this technology which can save lives and prevent false arrests.

PMA was found in a huge bust in december, yet the results of that analysis were only available the day after Annabelle died. If projects like ravesafe and other pill testing organisatiosn were supported by the government then the users would be aware of PMA entering the market long before the police would know about it. As I said in an earlier post, it is the recalcitrant attitude to pill testing and harm minimisation that has cost Annabelle her life.

We need to support the ABC and Dr Caldicott in their push to bring the truth out in the open. Caldicott and Kanck have been campaigning for years and they need us to help them. Just like Anna Wood became the damaging vehicle for the stupid 'just say no' campaign, we need to make sure that the more sensible approach taken by Annabelle's parents is supported and as politically successful.