I want to come back

[Guest onemind]

the only one answer i there is no ONE answer

For now

[apothecary]

So onemind, then what exactly is the point of this thread?

You want this to serve as a warning? You mean, like we tried to warn you?

You wanted to discuss the effects? But, you won't actually discuss them, you've already labelled, boxed and decided on them to your liking, and nobody can tell you otherwise.

Do you want other peoples perspectives? It seems no perspective other than your own is good enough.

You definitely don't want the scenario explained to you, as it seems you've come up with a perfectly good one on your own, despite a lack of broad experience with this chemical.

You've made yourself known. We got what you're saying loud and clear.

What a waste of brainspace. I'm not reading this tripe anymore.

[Guest onemind]

Just because i think you're wrong doens't mean i didnt appreciate your input. One mans tripe is another mans lesson

[ajna]

now don't go having anymore DMT tonight and coming back here tomorrow with another "woops, i had it all wrong" threads again all this wasted energy!

let go of what you think you know, and allow yourself to be free

ajna

Edited December 20, 2006 by ajna

[Tripitaka]

You tried to do the same thing with this thread, whats your deal?

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...=11830&st=0

Do you think someone would pay to read this crap?

So, one minute you are the purveyor of what is worth being considered as creativity, and now you present yourself as the "all knowing Buddhist scholar". Quite the shapeshifter!

Sorry guys, just didnt think we should encourage this type of thing.

Your smugness is only superseeded by your total arrogance and ability to relate to what has been discussed.

Do you think you are being compassionate encouraging delusion? Its cruel to be kind as they say.

Compassionate buddhist ???

Smug rationalist??

[Guest onemind]

What is with people always turning on me if i dont subscribe to what they teach?

My rationalism is the only thing keeping me from going completely insane. What I experienced last night scared the living shit out of me and the only way i can deal with it is to think of it as a drug overdose and not communion with the devil or a preview of where i am going when i die.

[apothecary]

It's obvious you're having difficulty coming to terms with this experience, which is the only reason I am bothering to reply (LAST TIME).

Did it not occur to you, that perhaps your rationalism is the cause of this entire mess?

I mean, is it so difficult to accept that certain things are completely irrational, inexplicable, and unknown?

As everyone here has said a hundred times now, maybe it is time to let go of your rationalism and accept the unknown as the known.

For a Buddhist, letting go of the rational self should not be difficult (as it is merely a part of the greater whole self).

Edited December 20, 2006 by apothecary

[Guest onemind]

Aha!

I think i see what you are saying. By me trying to cling to what i know sent me into a hell hole.

Are you saying, if i took another hit that size but didnt try to focus or use my thinking mind to analyse i would shoot off into this hyperspace that as of yet, i have been unable to get to?

I think i have come to the conclusion i am just not cut out for all this. DMT fucked me and i am now too scared to do it again.

I am sure it has a lot to teach and you guys are in some kind of different zone but for me, its all just too much. I thought i was ready but i am clearly not.

God knows what i will do now, might just do as sobriquet said and chase bananas for a while. I've missed my chance, maybe next time

Thanks man

[sobriquet]

hehe, i just read that article.....

I am not sure what you are hinting at Sobriquet, good and evil, heaven and hell, god and satan, meaning, purpose, the same old theme of the universe. You seem to admire a madman who never got to the bottom of things...

I don't know whether you read the article in detail or looked up some other sources but Grothendieck is considered by some to be one of the most important mathematicians of the 20th century. That's no mean feat.

He was awarded a Fields Medal in 1966 - the equivalent of a Nobel Prize in mathematics, but boycotted the ceremony in the Soviet Union protesting against that nation's foreign policies.

In 1988 he was awarded a Crafoord Prize and despite its high value - currently $500 000 US dollars, declined it.

So I wouldn't exactly rush to say he was a nothing who "never got to the bottom of things". To dismiss the life experiences of another person for whatever reason no matter how great or lowly is surely an injustice.

Peace.

[Guest onemind]

I am not dismissing him, its just that there a heaps of those genius types that end up going crazy and it always seems to be mathematicians. Maybe they are the next step of human evolution but someone of my status simply can't relate to these people.

On a side note, i wrote an email to one of this years fields medalists, Perelman and suprisingly recieved a reply. It wasn't long ago there was alot of talk about perelman being the greatest genius alive today ect ect and if you look at his life, he is broke, lives with his mum and is a recluse. I have no idea why the extremely intelligent beings of our species cant cope with human existence and i am pretty sure i wont understand it in this lifetime.

If your talk about this mathematicain is the closest thing you have as proof of the devil, i ask, are you a christian by any chance?

After last night i seriously questioned my belief that there is no devil but i am trying not to think about it anymore.

I have spent the day surfing the web reading of many hundreds of trip reports that sounded exactly like mine. Terror, devil, nightmare within a nightmare ect. One interesting this was that alot of people say the majority of people experience blissful paradise on dmt but there seems to be a minority that experience the dark side which makes me question if i am a bad person.

To be honest, the whole ordeal has freaked me out and i'm not sure what to do about it.

[Green Osiris]

Why isn't there a Nobel prize for mathematics ? A popular (busted) myth is that Alfred Noble's wife had an affair with a mathematician, so he had a distaste for the whole genre. It's shakey though, as he was never married in the first place....

It wasn't long ago there was alot of talk about perelman being the greatest genius alive today ect ect and if you look at his life, he is broke, lives with his mum and is a recluse.

While on this subject, can anyone help me with the name of a mathematician I read about somwhere in a pop-science book (I think) who was also perpetually poor, used to travel the world inviting himself into people's homes (it was an honour for the hosts) and was an avid amphetamine user ? From memory, he may have also won a Field Medal, and instead of keeping the cash donation, offered it up as a series of prizes to others who could crack his complex equations. Or something like that.

I have no idea why the extremely intelligent beings of our species cant cope with human existence and i am pretty sure i wont understand it in this lifetime.

You don't need to understand it, just appreciate his choices. Perhaps so-called 'intelligence' brings with it a feeling of being an outsider that cannot exist comfortably with most others due to variations in what might be perceived important to people. With personal interests that fall well outside of social 'norms', isolation can be a very real side-effect.

[Green Osiris]

Found my guy ! It is Paul Erdős I was thinking of....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s

"Possessions meant little to Erdős; most of his belongings would fit in a suitcase, as dictated by his itinerant lifestyle. Awards and other earnings were in general donated to people in need and various worthy causes. He spent most of his life as a vagabond, travelling between scientific conferences and the homes of colleagues all over the world."

.......Other idiosyncratic elements of Erdős' vocabulary include: children were referred to as "epsilons"; women were "bosses"; men were "slaves"; people who stopped doing math had "died"; people who died had "left"; alcoholic drinks were "poison"; music was "noise"; and, to give a mathematical lecture was "to preach." Also, all countries which he thought failed to provide freedom to individuals as long as they did no harm to anyone else were classified as imperialist and given a name that began with a lowercase letter. For example, the U.S. was "samland" (after Uncle Sam), the Soviet Union was "joedom" (after Joseph Stalin), and Israel was "israel". For his epitaph he suggested, "I've finally stopped getting dumber."

After 1971 he also took amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking the drug for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained that mathematics had been set back by a month: "Before, when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a blank piece of paper." The bet won, he promptly resumed his amphetamine habit.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Green Osiris

[FungalFractoids]

Why isn't there a Nobel prize for mathematics ? A popular (busted) myth is that Alfred Noble's wife had an affair with a mathematician, so he had a distaste for the whole genre. It's shakey though, as he was never married in the first place....

ROFL

[sobriquet]

If your talk about this mathematicain is the closest thing you have as proof of the devil, i ask, are you a christian by any chance?

No. My background is diverse and religion was never a part of family life with my parents being secular.

I had an awakening to the existence of God funnily enough through an English translation of the Koran I read in high school. At first the text seemed repetitive and at times meaningless to a young mind who didn't understand the true concepts of evil. I never finished it and got through only the first 3 chapters or so, but one phrase stuck with me throughout and I haven't forgotten the thrust of it to this day. The phrase was something like... 'follow the way of Abraham, monotheism, he was never an idol worshipper'.

After passing through a period where I believed myself to be a self styled Sufi mystic, I finally realised that all organised religions on earth were false. All made slaves of men to other men. Priests and hierarchies existed in every doctrine and all were false.

Each religion believed it was right to the exclusion of all the others. Each one was like a club which one had to join to attain 'salvation' or whatever equivalent there was. Each one divided humanity and excluded people. Some had secret paths and hidden mysteries.

I realised and intuited that all of this was false since it was all man made. I had a deep sense and indeed knowledge of God's existence and I knew that I had to be a monotheist accountable only to Him ultimately. That no one could take my burden of responsibility away from me, no one could save me, and that I could only succeed by following moral precepts that every man truly knows in their heart but often fails at implementing.

This way is open to everyone and excludes no one. God does not wish people to be divided into sects in His name. The way of righteousness is open to everyone to follow. You don't need someone else to force you to be good. It has to come from within. There is no secret or hidden mystery in this. Believe in the one God, understand that you are accountable for your actions, and that there will be a day when all the accounts will be settled by God. That's all I believe.

After last night i seriously questioned my belief that there is no devil but i am trying not to think about it anymore.

The Judaeo-Christian Devil - as an individual or entity - is far too simplistic. There is no one devil or satan creature that goes around making men slip.

The devil or satan is a part of man's being. There is a capacity for evil within us that we must overcome and defeat on an ongoing basis.

To be honest, the whole ordeal has freaked me out and i'm not sure what to do about it.

Guidance can come in many ways. My personal belief is that God will show you signs in the real world and within yourself that if you recognise you can't fail to recognise (see below 41:53). This was one of the things I remember from my time as a Sufi.

41:49 The human being never tires of imploring for good things. And when adversity befalls him, he turns despondent, desperate.

41:50 And when we bless him after suffering some adversity, he says, "This belongs to me. I do not believe that the (final) Hour will ever come to pass. Even if I am returned to my Lord, I will find at Him better things." Most certainly, we will inform the disbelievers of all their works, and will commit them to severe retribution.

41:51 When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

41:52 Proclaim: "What if this is truly from GOD, then you decide to reject it? Who are farther astray than those who decide to oppose this?"

41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?

41:54 Indeed, they are doubtful about meeting their Lord. He is fully aware of all things.

[mescalito]

To rationalise the unfathomable is like trying to grasp water and I think that you are going through a kind of "quickening" so my advice,though a mortal one, is to let things flow and not try to grasp so much.....I know how hard that is

Mastery IMHO is unattainable in this realm of existence,though one may have fleeting moments to remind one of what mastery is "like".

I could read and totally understand how to build a house within a week, but without the tools and experience I can never expect to get it right the first time...even then I may encounter a wiser builder along the way and save myself from further problems and the wasted time and scrapped materials,let alone a structural failure even years after thinking I had built the perfect house the first time round.

IMHO for anyone considering the "meaning of life" for themselves or taking psychedelics seriously is that you need to decide EXACTLY what you believe will happen after physical death....after all we have just ascertained that death or "the thought of" scares the shit out of you!!

The 3 main scenarios:

1)You die and become worm food

2)You move somewhere else and face judgement and are rewarded or penalised for eternity

3)You are re-incarnated and live again in this plane to progress and/or help/hinder or work towards an ultimate mission(maybe even onto another plane of existence where elves exist ).

Your choice of these impacts directly on how you spend your time here,and how the physical world will react to you.

DMT and such just turns up the volume-----dose independent!!.it's just a key baby

I can say I suffer from a depressive illness or I could say I'm blessed with a sensitivity that may well be accelerating my progress through my interpretation of my "meaning" and therefore heading me towards my ultimate purpose.

Though either way I'm different....as is everyone else so therefore no different!

Therefore my outlook on any situation and reaction to it realistically depends on my belief system and the way I act is firmly directed as a result.

"The minds' belief is that it exists by itself" is what I wrote on the wall once and kept referring to once, whilst undergoing ego loss.After about an hour I heard a voice that said "Don't try to map this place"...something I'll never forget.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

as to your situation I reckon 3rd Eye blind said it well:

JUMPER:

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been livin' in

And if you do not want to see me again

I would understand

I would understand

I would understand

The angry boy a bit too insane

Icing over a secret pain

You know you don't belong

You're the first to fight

You're way too loud

You're the first to lie on a burial shroud

I know something's wrong

Well everyone I know has got a reason

To say....you could put the past away

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been livin' in

And if you do not want to see me again

I would understand

I would understand

Well he's on the table and he's gone too cold

And I do not think anyone knows

What they're doing here?

And your friends have left you

You've been dismissed

I never thought it would come to this

And I....I want you to know

Everyone's got to face down their demons

Maybe today...you could put the past away!

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been livin' in

And if you do not want to see me again

I would understand

I would understand

I would understand

(I would understand

I would understand)

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah!!

Can you put the past away?

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

I would understand

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

I would understand

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

And I would understand

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

I would understand

I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend

and I would understand......

---------------------------------------------------

Best of luck my friend and my only objection to your previous thread is that it contravenes T's gnome thread and threatens the continuation of this sanctuary for lost souls and nature loving green-thumbs alike.

Erowid would be the place to post certain dreams as Auxin said and well worth the read

[Guest onemind]

Thanks Mesc

Dont mind me, i was going through some kind of post bad trip melt down. I almost have no memory of it now other than i experienced something bad that i cant really remember. I now wish i didnt flush my dmt down the toilet after reading through all the trip reports on erowid. So many people have experienced what i experienced which is somehow strangely comforting. I think it was just the feeling of being totally alone in hell with no way back to my body, it deeply disturbed me and makes me just want to cry

I havent been this open since i was a kid, life really is a mystery and i think i am going to give up trying to solve it and just live it from now on. Sorry to dump all this on everyone and i appreciate all you advice, patience and opinions.

And Sobriquet, thanks for posting, to each their own belief i guess.

Peace

[mescalito]

Thanks Mesc

I havent been this open since i was a kid, life really is a mystery and i think i am going to give up trying to solve it and just live it from now on. Sorry to dump all this on everyone and i appreciate all you advice, patience and opinions.

That's what we're here for.

So what happened between when you were a kid and now?

That's why psychedelics are illegal and alcohol is legal.

It keeps us in a juvenile state!

[sobriquet]

I now wish i didnt flush my dmt down the toilet...

Don't forget your own analogy of the monkey and its stash of bananas

[occidentalis]

Aha!

I think i see what you are saying. By me trying to cling to what i know sent me into a hell hole.

Are you saying, if i took another hit that size but didnt try to focus or use my thinking mind to analyse i would shoot off into this hyperspace that as of yet, i have been unable to get to?

I think i have come to the conclusion i am just not cut out for all this. DMT fucked me and i am now too scared to do it again.

Allow me to explain my previous comment which may have seemed overly harsh.

You saying "I will never use DMT again" is exactly the same as you saying "I now understand DMT and can reach jhana with it every time". The two statements are opposite sides of the same coin - the coin is the claim that you know everything about DMT. The fact is that even the most experienced DMT trippers have more to learn. The inside of the brain is a near-infinite environment.

I am saying this from the position of someone who underwent a very similar DMT experience-cycle to you - I had a few pleasant and interesting low-moderate dose experiences (although I don't know anything about jhana) and then thought I was ready for a big one, which promptly destroyed everything I thought was real and left me a quivering mess for a few hours.

After that I considered my options and my motivations. The decision I reached was that I had started down the path, and while I do not believe that I will necessarily reach it's 'end', if one exists, the reasons why I wanted to explore that path in the first place were still valid. So after a break I got back on the horse. I have learnt that there is much to learn and that the DMT universe is stranger than anyone can really comprehend. My advice to you is don't make any fixed decisions about DMT. Don't decide it's right for you, don't decide it's wrong for you. Just be open - open to using, open to not using, as the case may be. Give it another try, maybe in a few months. Or else play with some other drugs, or other methods of mind-opening, and then come back to DMT when you are ready. Try ayahuasca (where legal) rather than smoking. You never know what's going to happen when you take a smoke - don't try and predict it. That's the lesson in all of this, based on my experience.

EDIT: I hadn't actually read all of this thread before I posted, it looks like you have actually reached some of these conclusions in the days since .

Edited December 21, 2006 by creach

[Guest onemind]

Don't forget your own analogy of the monkey and its stash of bananas

Thats the thing, i dont think it has to be one or the other. Look at Thimothy Leary. He used LSD at least once a week for years, it didn't disable him, it didnt weaken him, if anything, it made him more open, more energetic and from that state, collecting bananas would be easier than the normal, boxed in, stressed out animal cut off from the big mind of nature. Look at me as an example, i had a half hour hell trip that i thought i would never recover from and swore off dmt as the devils work , 2 days later i am more confident, more open minded, my fears and anxieties have greatly lessoned and now when i sit down to study some of the knowledge i need for my degree, my mind is more capable of taking it in. So i think your conclusion of being either a straight monkey collecting bananas or a bent monkey letting go off the material world is the wrong conclusion. Being a bent mokey for half an hour a fornight makes you a straighter monkey for the rest of the time. Connecting with the big mind, clearing subconcious baggage and becoming free is what psychedelics is all about and makes people better. Even after a bad trip has improved me.

I hadn't actually read all of this thread before I posted, it looks like you have actually reached some of these conclusions in the days since

Thanks Creach, what you just wrote reconfirmed my new stance on psychonautics. I was wrong obviously to say that i had it figured out and below i will summarise what led to my short sighted conclusion.

First DMT trip: Overdose that obliterated me to the white stage. There was no fear because there was no me to be scared. It didnt last long and i laughed when i came back to my body.

Second-20th DMT trip: Didnt want to obliterate myself so only had 2 tokes each time because i thought that was the correct dosage. The dmt buzz came, made 1 pointed concentration on the candle easy and entrance into familiar meditation states simple. Little did i know that i was only having a pre threshold dose that was even just before the 2D color stage.

21st DMT trip: 4-5 huge tokes of a large dose led to my mind shattering. As soon as one concept arose, just before i could focus on it, it would change to another concept. It went like this for at least 10 minutes. After sitting there for 10 minutes in some kind of fast concept loop, i remembered i smoked dmt and tried to cut it short. I thought by opening my eyes i would just come back as usual only this time, i had no eyes to open. What i later described as hell and the devil was simply my own fear of being without my body for a long time and the panic of not being able to get back to it. Now that i know that you come back safely when the time is right and make full recovery, in the future, i will not try to end the trip and just let go.

Now all that remains is finding some more DMT

I have a lot to learn, i think in the time it takes for me to get more dmt i will read everything from the priests of psychedelics, McKenna, Huxley, Leary and any other psychedelic literature i can find.

I am opening to the idea that there is some kind of big, "onemind" behind all of nature that gets chanelled through bodys with some kind of DNA connection. Connecting with the big mind seems to be the most important work a disconnected creature can do.

Anyway, i realise that i was just an apprentice that came to a very wrong conclusion and will now look into shamanism without my white, conservative, elitist cut off arrogant prick materialist attitude

Thanks

[sobriquet]

Thats the thing, i dont think it has to be one or the other. Look at Thimothy Leary. He used LSD at least once a week for years, it didn't disable him, it didnt weaken him, if anything, it made him more open, more energetic and from that state, collecting bananas would be easier than the normal, boxed in, stressed out animal cut off from the big mind of nature. Look at me as an example, i had a half hour hell trip that i thought i would never recover from and swore off dmt as the devils work , 2 days later i am more confident, more open minded, my fears and anxieties have greatly lessoned...

Interesting how even a spelling error can contain something for contemplation.

Lessen vs. Lesson

It sounds like you are beginning to learn but it's a struggle. You can draw false conclusions and you are still making assumptions which are unjustified.

and now when i sit down to study some of the knowledge i need for my degree, my mind is more capable of taking it in. So i think your conclusion of being either a straight monkey collecting bananas or a bent monkey letting go off the material world is the wrong conclusion.

But I never concluded either of these things. I'm for exploring the universe for all sorts of signs both within and without. You're attempting to shoehorn what you are being told here in open and clear ways into your own system of thinking.

For one thing I believe in a balance between the two. To know about an illusion is not to accept that illusion uncritically.

What I tried to point out is that the material world is also there and cannot be written off with a quick dismissive statement.

DMT, the plants that contain it, the molecule, your brain and it's receptors are all material things. The 'other realms' have material things as their substrate. It seems to me that in our existence you cannot have one without the other. So dismissing the material world is impossible for me in that sense. But I don't dismiss the alternate realities that are experienced through these other materials either.

Being a bent mokey for half an hour a fornight makes you a straighter monkey for the rest of the time. Connecting with the big mind, clearing subconcious baggage and becoming free is what psychedelics is all about and makes people better. Even after a bad trip has improved me.

But you're not teaching us anything new here. Balance is paramount. Don't go to extremes is what the message was all about anyhow.

[Guest onemind]

I'm not trying to tell you anything new, i am trying to learn all the old stuff that i dont know yet

I am not talking about giving up your job or place within society and driving out to nimbin to become a hippy, i'll still collect bananas but they just wont be the number one priority. I still dont know what you are suggesting to me, are you saying, dont use drugs, study mathematics and the quran and get a real job and leave shamanism to the shamans?

At least all the other people are talking about the dmt experience and shed insight, you haven't even smoked it so what can you possibly teach about it? And i dont get why someone who doesn't smoke dmt is hanging around on a dmt smoking thread.

[sobriquet]

I still dont know what you are suggesting to me, are you saying, dont use drugs, study mathematics and the quran and get a real job and leave shamanism to the shamans?

It's not for me to suggest. I'm only a warner

At least all the other people are talking about the dmt experience and shed insight, you haven't even smoked it so what can you possibly teach about it? And i dont get why someone who doesn't smoke dmt is hanging around on a dmt smoking thread.

Does one need to fall off the side of a cliff to their death to teach you about it? Does one need to put their hand in a fire and burn it to a crisp to teach someone about it?

Peace.

[Guest onemind]

I see what you are all about now. You were close to your cousin, were devasted that drugs ruined his life and now hang around drug forums trying to put the fear of god into them.

Do you work for some kind of war on drugs organisation?

[ajna]

onemind, how many lessons must you attend before you start learning?

if you really want to work at getting to the bottom of something, how about you start with the root cause of this attitude problem. i'm sure it isn't anything you've picked up from the buddhist retreats.

there's a lot of incredibly insightful people on this forum, you could learn a great deal from them and all they ask in return is a little respect.

ajna